FixThePowerCombatRules/Initiative
Contents
Official Rule
A character who delays acting after their initiative comes up loses one die from all attack pools per initiative point skipped.
Toram's version
When a character wants to interrupt another character's action with their own held action, they first declare what they are going to do. Then, each of the characters makes a new initiative roll, without benefit of previously used non-scene-length initiative charms, and their actions are resolved in that order. If one of their actions makes the other invalid, the second action is lost.
Ascendance's version
My option of choice is that on their action, characters may declare what they want to do under what conditions. If that condition comes up, they may immediately interrupt on that initiative count and act. If the condition doesn't come up, their action is wasted. They always have the option to abort to full dodge or full parry. Otherwise, they can't hold actions to wait and see. Simple, intuitive. I think it works.
medivh's version
I never make anybody roll initiative *until they actually attack*.
Arafelis's version
Reacting to a higher intitative count costs one die per three full points of difference. Magnificent Harvest Moon acts on count 16, and Tikuru acts on count 10. Magnificent Harvest Moon declares an attack, and Tikuru opts to parry; because of the difference between their initiatives, Tikuru's parry takes a two-die penalty. A slightly harsher Storyteller could instead add this to successes required. Holding your initiative brings no penalty, except losing the advantage.
szilard's version
Actions can be held freely, until initiative count 1. Multiple actions do not occur simultaneously unless an Extra Action Charm is used. Instead, multiple actions must be separated by at least two counts. Thus, if someone holds their action until initiative count 2, they may not take multiple actions without Charm use. If two characters act on the same initiative phase and a simultaneous action is inappropriate, then actions are resolved in the following order:
- non-extras before extras
- highest to lowest base initiative
- highest to lowest perception or applicable ability, as appropriate
Vote Tally
Official version
Toram's version
Ascendance's version
medivh's version
Arafelis's version
szilard's version
Comments
With the new rules, if you know an enemy will be coming into view or into range this round, you can't effectively try to go first so that you can wait for them; all you can do is hope that your initiative roll puts you before them, but not too far before them. The rationale of a "window of attack opportunity" seems pretty contrived to me.
This puts an appropriate degree of risk in the "wait and see" tactic, as delaying may mean that you can't react fast enough to actually interrupt, so your action might get wasted. But unlike the printed rules, it doesn't introduce a capricious penalty based on matching up your initiative with an opponents'. This, btw, is roughly how the HERO System works held actions, and it seems to work well there. - Toram
Sorry, Toram--I don't want to introduce another die roll. --MF
What I mean is this: The Powercombat 101 tutorial example where the DB waits for Ara-whatshisname to move in, thus losing attack dice, I wouldn't actually make any of them roll their initiatives until the time where it was necessary to see who strikes first. I don't care who's first ready when they're 100 yards distant of one another. The entire point of spears and lances is that you can just wait for a charging opponent, handily win whatever initiative system Real Life uses, and then beat the everloving crap out of them. You shouldn't be penalized for using your weapon the way it was designed to be used. I think the real point of that rule is that if you're *already* in melee, and decide to not attack once the chance comes, your opponent can move defensively and you'll lose attack dice. - medivh
Good point, medivh ... I think that is the best way to handle rolling initiative. ^_^ Incidentally, I didn't allow actions to be interrupted under the old rule set, but I'll be changing that when I get my Players Guide (its on its way! ^_^). I like the new rule. -- BrokenShade
>>"What I mean is this: The Powercombat 101 tutorial example where the DB waits for Ara-whatshisname to move in, thus losing attack dice, I wouldn't actually make any of them roll their initiatives until the time where it was necessary to see who strikes first."<< Sadly for Marissa, in that example, it *was* relevant, as Alakra was moving at a rate of 105 yards a turn - while I understand my stacking of multiple effects made things a little confusing, the drama did take place within a single turn. Remember that you can now move a full 12 + Dex yards and still take a full action - if Alakra wasn't flying, and wasn't so insanely maneuverable, Marissa wouldn't have had the problem, since she could easily move to engage him. Because he was so maneuverable, he was able to get inside her reach with horrifying speed and make life awkward for her. While it doesn't *look* like it, Exalted now has rules that simulate holding an opponent off/closing inside their reach, while simultaneously solving the "Race to 0" problem. -- Kasumi
In the past, there have been discussions about the timing of ranged attacks, which bears some similarity to this idea of "initiative is positively correlated to reach." My solution was to divide every round into two phases, a "movement phase" which occurred on unmodified init (base + d10), and an "action phase" which brought weapon modifiers and so on into play. The basic idea was that melee init modifiers only applied in melee range. I don't think it was too much of a kludge, but I also think I'd be unlikely to ever actually use it in a game, since it would slow things down. I'm not sure how the rules I came up with would interact with PC, but it might be a general avenue of thought worth considering.
On another note, Ascendance's solution seems virtually identical to the D&D "ready action." It does differ, however, in that default-assumption D&D uses a more static initiative system; you roll at the beginning of combat, instead of the beginning of each turn. When you ready an action, you sink in the initiative queue permanently unless you use another action later on to regain your initial init rating. This idea seems to serve a purpose similar to the PC rules for held actions: if you can hold an action without (substantial) penalty, then in most cases, people with high init will choose to hold their actions. This results in a bizarre situation where the best strategy usually consists of being totally reactive -- which isn't particularly entertaining or true-to-life (or true to action movies, either). \\ _Ikselam
I felt that the change I proposed would help to allow certain dramatic situations, for example, Mexican standoffs, and fending people off with a weapon with greater reach. It would also allow certain defensive strategies from people who go first, and the people who go second can react, or stay back, or whatever. As a side note, I'm a long-time D&D DM. However, the DM system allows you greater flexibility, in that you may simply delay to a different phase and act then. Its just that any delays permanently affect your turn in the initiative count. - Ascendance
I am not sure if people will recall but the actual official rule is that the penalty from holding your action only applies to offensive actions you take, not defensive. - BogMod
Thanks, BogMod! Official rule text corrected.
By the way, based on some hard thinking about genre conventions, I'm changing my vote. The idea of hanging back and sniping at people who come around the corner sounds cool from a tactical perspective, but that's not what people do in the source material. --MF
In an approximation of d20's 'ready action' system above, what if, for each pip one holds their action, rather than losing points from their attack, they lose initiative pips in the immediately subsequent round? Noting, of course, that if Initiative is reduced to 0, they lose their dice-action for the round, though perhaps allowing the character to abort to defense. The suggestion has it's own share of potential problems, and I don't see it as any significant improvement over the existing system, but it seems like a viable mechanic, if someone has a problem with the revised dice-minuses. _Jabberwocky
I still use a WoD-like system for my initiative. It just seems so much more strategic to know what your opponent is trying to do before you decide what you're gonna do. If anyone is interested, they can visit my userpage or post a request. I'm working on incorporating a version of initiative closer to canon into my games though, but it seems like it's taking forever.- Morpheus
It really bothers me that the official system hurts fast characters (by charging them- rather significantly- for Holding to wait for dodge and parry pools to drop- while the slow characters, often those with the Big Friendly Bloodsucking Reaver Daiklaves (BFB-RDs) get to choose between defending themselves at no penalty and laying massive smackdowns on that dumb guy who chose +Initiative Charms and weapons instead of damage) to 'fix' the Initiative race-for-zero delay. In actual martial arts combat, it's far more advantageous to wait; unless the fighters are being showy, the beginning of a fight is filled with feints and taunts. However, I do understand why this isn't desirable in a dramatic game. At any rate, why penalize people for choosing speed boosters? That just seems like a balance issue to me. $.02 &Arafelis
