Difference between revisions of "TrialByFire/OldComments"

Latest revision as of 01:17, 6 April 2010

Well, I think that's about it. I didn't post this in my character section because Dan Tai isn't really at 150xp yet, this is just a build for testing the MA style. Fluff away if you like Kurulham.~ BrigandRansom

Erm... Kurulham? Helooooooo.....

My MA is almost finished and I'm not opposed to the little match you suggested once it's done.-Ambisinister

Sorry for disappearing over the weekend, got wicked sick and wicked drunk for my birthday. Not sick from the drinking, flu-sick. So Ambisinister, shall I change the fluff and setting? I wrote the fluff with Kurulham's Air Immaculate in mind. ~ BrigandRansom , Recovering and blowing his nose

No worries. Something worth considering: I did design the style as an Alchemical Style. Should I build an Alchie or a Solar? An equal points solar is probably the purest method for testing style vs. style. -Ambisinister

Ohman, sorry I spaced out on responding. By all means, make whatever you want following the guidelines posted at the top. Please do note however that I built Dan Tai as a normal solar when he should be a Sequestered Tabernacle Solar. To be honest, I did him that way just out of laziness =P

As for the Immaculate part, I was originally intending to test Dawn Fist against a Canon style. However I think that there's a pretty good quality of work done here, considering all of the exposition on crunch done by many of our Wikizens. Solar, Alchie, Infernal if you want =) ~ BrigandRansom, getting around to answering stuff now that he's feeling better

Hmmm, anything I want eh? Go go Alchie-Converted-Solar! Seriously though, I've written up both a Solar (Kree the Exacting, a Twilight) and an Alchemical (Inexorable Advance of Progress, a Jade caste) practioner of the style. Since you issued the challenge, you pick the opponent. Quick question regarding artifacts: are you cool with other types of non-weapon or armor artifacts besides amulets and hearthstone bracers?-Ambisinisterwho will get some stats posted sometime today

In case it colors your decision, the Alchemical will be at a slight disadvantage because of his increased charm and essence costs.-Ambisinister

Well as Dan Tai would say, "I have no need of any advantage. Come at me with all your might, we shall see which one of us is truly just." Go ahead and do the Solar =). Any suggestions or ideas for fluff? ~ BrigandRansom ~ Splitting his dice pools between Wiki and English 101 homework

Solar it is. Do you have a problem with me using other custom charms? In particular I was thinking of utilizing some of my Athletics and Miscellaneous charms. As for fluff, how about setting it up as some sort of fighting competition. That way you can weave a unifying theme throughout all of the combats you run here.-Ambisinister

Sounds good, I'll work p a bit of flff for that. In the meantime, I think it might be a good Idea to use "Summon Impartial Demon of the Third Party" to ST for us. Possibly FrivYeti , since he's got the expeience from the FaFL battles? Whatever ST we may get for this could of course, modify the House Rules and such that will be used ~ BrigandRansom , hoping that his strategy will offset the SEVEN LEAPING DRAGON STONE?????

GregLink might not be a bad idea for a judge if he's willing. He did help both of us work out the mechanics for both styles. Incidentally, I messed up some of my points, so the perfected kata bracers will be turning into plain 'ol hearthstone bracers. Seven Leaping Dragons Stone is a hearthstone from Bo3C, type solar, trigger combat, adds 4 dice to all martial arts attack rolls. I have an idea for some fluff too. I'll add it to Kree's character sheet page for the time being and it can be moved around later.

I get mentioned all over the place, don't I? ;) I'm afraid that I'd be a bad judge at the moment, as I am in the middle of my essay-writing period at school. But I will be reading with interest. :) - FrivYeti

As a side note: Since I haven't picked a mechanic for Perpetual Dynamo Recycling Technique, the one I'll use for the fight is "Spend 1 willpower as an instant, reflexive, combo-able charm use to return all accumulated motes in the Recylcing Pool to the Exalt's essence pools. -Ambisinister

No Sweat FrivYeti, you were just the first person I thought of =)

Oh I'm well aware what the Seven Leaping Dragon Stone does, I considered taking it for the Seqestered Tabernacle version of Dan Tai. Good choice, by the way.

You're right about GregLink, fantastic choice. He's the first person who ever gave me commentary on my stuff =) Howsaboutit GregLink?

I like the idea of this page being a Tournament-based thing. Let's see how this plays out, and maybe we can get other people involved with other Wikizen-created MA styles and actually set up a tournament ladder. Hmmm...

No problem with the mechanic choice either, I've already dissected your strategy from your character sheet and am currently thinking of what I'm going to do on my fourth turn ~ BrigandRansom , playing chess on his computer to warm up ;D

Already disected my strategy eh? I'll have to endeavor to throw you some curve balls then. We'll have to see how well my predictions about Mr. Tai go. I'm big enough to admit that you have some techniques available which do cause me some concern. It should be an interesting fight.- Ambisinister

Hey BR, if we can't find a ref, we can't find a ref. We can just run it on our own. If we hit an insurmountable judgement issue, we can put it up to wiki vote. As for stunt dice, I'll assign Dan Tai's and you can assign Kree's. Sound cool to you?-Ambisinister

Gimme another day, I've been trolling for STs in #WoD, if nothing comes of that we'll get together in a chat room and get this done in an evening or something ~ BrigandRansom , getting torn apart like the n00b he is =)

Sorry about bailing, BrigandRansom. Uncle Sam knocked at my door one day and when that happens, man, you drop everything and you go. I am now significantly wetter & somewhat sandier. - Kurulham

So, have you guys started this somewhere yet, or do you still need an ST? I'll do it if you like. I'll make up a list of house rulings if you're interested. - IanPrice

We haven't started yet. Actually, I haven't seen or heard from BR in a while now. As far as I know we don't have an ST yet either. I'd be more than happy to take you up on your offer. We'll have to see what BR says when he gets back.- Ambisinister

Aack! School and an exploding computer have made it difficult to make it back around, sorry! I'm back, I'll bust my ass and have all fluff / description set up by this weekend! Kurulham, good to see you back! Sorry we got impatient. IanPrice, that would rock if you wanted to do some STing! If we can get everyone together at once, we could work out the combat in an afternoon, but there are issues of Time Zone and reliable internet connections. And I'd love to see/hear/read your house rule ideas

Also, There's al least one more MAist involved, Scrollreader said something about a Bronze-Trained Solar... (creepy!) ~ BrigandRansom, fighting his way back to the intarweb

In that case, I accept and volunteer and will do it and stuff. Also, I'll have a surprise contender waiting for whoever finishes the tournament; a Tabernacle-trained Solar using canon MA styles. He's still built using 150 XP, but I used some power-juicing tricks so he should be a significant challenge to whoever gets to him.

As for house rules, it's more like a set of interpretations. I'm not adding or subtracting much, because basically the idea of this is to see if your MAs work out according to the canon rules. So all my house rulings will be aimed at making certain things clear which I otherwise find unclear from the wording in the books. Now that I'm definitely doing it, my rulings will be up at IanPrice/TrialHouseRules. - IanPrice

I think using any house rules for this is a bad idea. Most of the ones you have listed aren't interpretations, but outright house rules, and that could create an artificial layer of extra power or weakness on some MA styles. While I do think it's a good idea for a set of interpretations be settled on and written up for clarity's sake, I also think great caution should be taken to ensure that those interpretations are just interpretations, and don't cross the line into alterations, which some of yours do. - David.

Ian, I strongly recommend that you outright say that you'll ignore the "must declare whether you're using defense X before attack is rolled" restriction that some Dodge charms have. It is not workable in PbP format. The added minor tactical aspect is just not worth the extra delay. I also agree with David. Some of your "interpretations" are really house-rules. Doubling the WP recovery from stunt, for example, is a significant change. - TonyC

David., TonyC, I agree that house rules add artificial things. However, I don't believe any of what I've put in there are things I made up out of my head. I've derived every single one of them from the wordings in the rulebooks. This just goes to show how many interpretations are possible from any single text. Every Storyteller will have a slightly different interpretation. On the WP thing for instance: I honestly thought that's the way it's supposed to work. It's the way it was explained to me, using the text at hand, when I learned to play Exalted. The core book says, "you get X or Y." Power Combat says, "double X," but is nonspecific about Y. Since the core book links the two values, I assumed that Power Combat intended it that way too. Just because I interpret it far differently from most people dosn't mean I made it up.

On the issue of feasibility, I'll take that suggestion strongly into consideration, TonyC. I read your fight with FaFL, and was quite impressed. So I can see that this suggestion comes from experience.

If either of you would like to comment on the IanPrice/TrialHouseRules page more extensively, to tell me which of my interpretations are farthest from the norm, and what the norm for them is, I'd appreciate it. - IanPrice

You bring up another interesting point, actually. While I (and I believe many others) take the stance that if the WP recovery was supposed to be doubled, the book would actually say exactly that, I can understand how someone might come to a different conclusion. However, I think it is in the best interests of this test, its participants, their writings, and by extension everyone who reads those fan-made works, to go with "mainstream" interpretations. Just because an interpretation could be drawn from the text doesn't mean it's the one that most Exalted fans use, and I think it's in everyone's best interest to go with mainstream interpretations. - David.

So I've been thinking about this in the context of a Fighting Game (Hey, stranger things have happened... the Bloody Roar Engine was originally developed for a W:tA fighting game that fell through). I almost think that House Rules would be like the Game Settings. So... another option is of course, looking at House Rules created by other Wikizens and drawing from there. I'll post more later, thinking of a "Stage" format for the setting (Pit-Fighting Arena in Nexus? Sequestered Tabernac? Kether Rock? Juggernaut???) ~ BrigandRansom, who would buy an Exalted Fighting Game in a heartbeat

I'm also beginning to lean towards David's thoughts on using very strict rules. This would provide a better test of the MAs, especially when dealing with Homebrew vs Canon styles. Wikizen vote? Anyone else interested in bringing a 150xp MAist to the table? ~ BrigandRansom, Wanna fight about it?

As advertised, I have one in store for the winner of the tournament, who I'm keeping as a surprise. I really don't care about the rules. As judge I'm just referee and dice monkey anyway. - IanPrice

So, let me know, what do I need to do to get involved? Combatant or judge, either's ok with me. -- Somori, Who is shortly going to be without an Exalted game.

See, "the setup" at the top of the page. Also, to be a judge, people seem to be agreeing on the rules I've posted at IanPrice/TrialHouseRules. (I've entirely removed the ones about stunt WP and hardness to another page, since they won't be used) - IanPrice

So, are we doing simultaeneous games or are we waiting for BR and Ambisinister to finish? Multi-person brawl or 2-person exhibition matches? Winner stays on, knockout or swiss tournament? These are the kinds of things I'm a little confused about. -- Somori, going to go and find some of the homebrew styles to play with.

The setup seems to imply one on one matches, due to the disallowing of allies, followers, etc. Tournament structure hasn't been discussed yet; I'm up for a round robin. As for simultaneous or wait, I think simultaneous would be better (so people don't get bored waiting their turn), though I can only commit to STing two or three fights at once. - IanPrice

Ambisinister is missing. Are you guys going to wait forever for him or is someone courageous enough to step up and take his place? Come on, now. - TonyC

Not missing, just quiet. Not a whole lot I can do here without BR.- Ambisinister

So is BR most of the time, for that matter. Since this is his baby... - IanPrice

Given that a number of people has expressed interest, perhaps this page should be moved up to its own page instead of remaining a BrigandRansom's subpage. Especially since BrigandRansom himself is missing. - TonyC

Done. - IanPrice

Siddies? Astrology? -- Darloth

As long as it's a 150XP character, go nuts. Have updated the rules for entry above for slightly more fairness. - IanPrice

Which brings up my first cheatery question: If I've got the backgrounds "Backing: Gold Faction" at 5 points and "Allies: Gold Faction Chosen of Serenity who has mastered the College of ..." at 5 points, can I make a case for Astrological effects on a Solar? What if I have them (or one of them) at 4? 3? My guess is that it wouldn't be allowed, but then again, it is a valid place to spend points...-- GregLink, causing problems.

Solar Astrology = no. I see that as just as much stealing the shtick as taking shapechanging away from the Lunars. However, those would certainly give you excuses to build an Eclipse who could learn Sidereal charms, and the CotI discounts are certainly available. - IanPrice

Personaly, I place Astrology in the same bag as pre-cast sorcery, no pre-existing effects. It seems like a valid charachter concept, but not for here. -FlowsLikeBits

Just wanted to say this is pretty cool. Don't really have the time to make charachters at the momemt, but I'll offer to ST stuff. I think a variety of situations would be interesting, depending on what people what. For example, variable powerup time, variable starting range, that sort of thing. (For some charachters, power up time and starting range are the same. ). I can also see an argument for restricting artifacts(so everyone doesn't have Perfected Kata Bracers). Depends what people want. -FlowsLikeBits I'll join if it's ok with IanPrice

That's why I'm restricting number. There are so many things people could use besides Perfected Kata Bracers, all giving very nice advantages. I figure, if everybody wants to be uncreative, that's their problem. - IanPrice...Who may be wrong, since he doesn't know what PKBs do...Lots of people seem to think they're the best thing since sliced bread though... (Oh, and you're in. Added your name to the Storytellers list.)

Perfected kata bracers, artifact 4, do a variety of really, really nice things for any martial artist. They add some dice to basically all MA actions, make your form charms look cooler with spirally essence displays, and have an MM specific bonus. Solars smite evil, abyssals kill things, siddies use less motes, lunars ignore shields, and terrestrials get MORE initiative and some more soak. They've got a couple of hearthstone sockets, and are rather expensive, commit wise. Aspect book earth.
-- Darloth

Oh yeah, now I remember. Those are pretty nice. However, the intent of the current Artifact rules is to even the playing field (unless having lots of artifacts is part of the character's shtick, whether from splat or otherwise - but that's uncommon for martial artists). So, if everybody's got the same equipment, that's no big loss as far as I'm concerned. The idea is to show off skillz, not toys. When two people both have the same toys available, it's the skills that will show themselves worthy. - IanPrice

If Trial By Fire is to test-drive MA styles, I suggest that we use 150 BP (number picked at random, may require adjusting) rather than 150 XP? Two reasons. First, 150 XP is not enough. A number of MA styles require Essence 5 for its pinnacle and the charm tree itself could go longer than 10 deep. Essence 5 and 10 charms takes about 152 XP to get. We could dedicate some of the starting BP and charms to Essence and MA charms, but we'll end up with strange initial builds that wouldn't make sense outside the TBF arena. The other way to get around the XP limit is to make advancement cheaper, which is probably why I'm seeing Cult-trained characters with their discounted advancement cost. Now, this is a valid approach. The difference between Cult characters and normal starting Solars are similar to Dynasts compared to Outcaste, etc, but this brings me to my second reason. We want to test the MA styles, not the Backgrounds. A generous amount of BP minimizes this difference. You'll be able to build the character you want instead of foregoing the pinnacle charm simply because you can't afford it. (And seriously, you can't possibly evaluate a martial art charm tree properly without evaluating the pinnacle.) The flat BP costs also simplifies character creation, since now we don't have to worry about how to minmax the XP game and how far to take that minmaxing game before the character loses believability. - TonyC

To support TonyC's theory, I point to my upcoming TBF character. Before I provide the link to it, I point out that I, as demon of crunch, also have a certain torrid history as a min-maxer, and as such, have exploited every loophole I could find. Given this, the character, while 'theoretically' legal, pushes every boundary just slightly beyond the limit, et cetera. Please don't hate me, and accept that the character presented was merely to make a monster of doom. Now then, having said that, I point at GregLink/TBFChar. As TonyC expected, he's Cult-trained, for the XP reduction. More surprisingly, while I wanted a Soulsteel Alchemical character, the 11XP per MA charm cost for them is too high to even get Ess 4 (18+27=54) and the 10 charms (110) I needed, really. Hence, I had to go to the effort of starting as an Abyssal (Cult trained, as noted as possible in the CotI book), then having that Abyssal convert to an Akuma of Autocthon (as noted as theoretically possible in some settings on page 72 of the Autocthonians book). Totally ridiculous, and it really masks the effect of the MA, but it's the only way I could get a Soulsteel Alchemical - like character within the bounds specified. I imagine others are having similar problems. And I didn't even need Essence 5, and my MA style is fairly 'short' in terms of number of charms. Having supported TonyC's theory, then, I'd claim that while DBS's BonusPointExperience system is good, there do seem to be some alterations to the setting that do matter, such as the relative prevalance of certain types of combos. Still, I'd be willing to try it, as it makes life much simpler, and that makes my brain happy. -- GregLink, just saying, is all

If you want to use bonus points, you might want to consider a more balanced version with regards Charms. Oh look, there's one at BonusPointExperience...DeathBySurfeit </shameless plug>

It's proven to produce a more anime-flavoured gaming experience. Perfect for this sort of thing
-- Darloth uses Plug Reiteration Tantra

One thought I has was to outlaw flaws, as they basicly give you free points under these conditions. So it's basicly like giving everyone 10 free points. (Either that, or we'd have to strongly control them, as most don't apply in combat). Also, I'll try an add some arenas soon also. -FlowsLikeBits

I've got no problem using these rules if people want. Though if I remember correctly, CotI training gives you a discount on many things in BP too, so it won't entirely close that gap. I will simply point out that if we do this, we'll be partially abandoning the stance of "using the printed rules." I'd rather up the XP cap, frankly, since despite the goodness of the BonusPointExperience rules, most games will probably use the official rules just because they're official. And fewer people have seen DeathBySurfeit's rules. - IanPrice

Agree here, although I'm not sure how to make a fair comparison, considering that the pinnacle charm can vary by style. Perhaps have divisions, denoted by the Essence of the Pinnacle charm of a style? This would allow more fairness in the XP area. (I'd probably say, for styles within 1 Essence of each other, just use the higher XP total for both contestants). Another idea would be to fix the Essence of the combatants,but I don't like that as much. Anyone got a good idea for the inital Ess-->XP values? -FlowsLikeBits

What mission are we shooting for with Trial By Fire? Is this to be a forum to test the mettle of various martial arts styles, or is it going to be a dueling arena? If the focus is going to be on the martial arts, then I feel like the rules, char gen and otherwise, should be definitive and restrictive to encourage a truly equal playing field in which to test the MA. If you have a contest beween a straight core book solar and a Cult solar, then the power differential skews the results. Did the cultist win because his kung-fu was better or because his benefits package was better? The same applies to artifacts, sorceries, and varying exalt types. Did you win because of your kung-fu or because your opponent was a DB and his costs were higher and his essence lower? If your character wins because he manages to snap off an unbreakable bones of stone or a gaia's rebuke, then it totally invalidates this as a martial arts competition. As it stands, it looks like the mission is for a dueling arena in which all participants happen to be first-string martial artists. I'm cool with either, and there's no reason we can't shoot for both. Thoughts? -Ambisinister

Well, in some ways, a straight standoff would be difficult. Especially given the fact that MA doesn't usually work all that well as a standalone combat ability. To do a straight MA runoff, I'd probably give each contestant N Essence, a whole style + N XP, make sure they were the same Exalt type and go from there. -FlowsLikeBits, [i]who is ok either way[/i]

I have changed the entry rules to be more restrictive, to the purpose of showcasing the MA styles more. What do people think? I've left Flaws in as an allowance, because I don't mind people getting "free points" for the purposes of the duels. Depending on how interesting the characters are, I may want to spin off further roleplaying. - IanPrice

Wow... this has exploded during my absence! Sorry for my vanishing act, school + holidays = no fscking time. BUt I'm settling back into my routine, which includes daily posts here (as stated in my Userpage description, this is a spiral-bound notebook for my Exalted Ideas.... which there should be another one of on my main userpage =)

I'll rebuild Dan Tai using the new rules (I have no problem with any of them)

As for Tournament setup, I was thinking of having 2 seperate "Divisions": Canon and Homebrew. If we have enough interested parties, we'll randomly pair each homebrew MAist against a Canon MAist (my original intent was to make powerbalancing a homebrew MA fun =) ). Upon completion of the first round, the matches will be randomly determined again, once again trying to pair Canon vs. Homebrew. Not a requirement, but follows with the theme.

I've also been thinking of some plotline-type stuff for this, if the volunteer ST/Refs email me at brigandransomatspamtrapcomcastdotnet or brigandransomatspamtraphotmaildotcom I'd love to kick around ideas with you =)

~ BrigandRansom , hanging his head in shame for being gone for so long

All sounds good to me. Expect email soon. - IanPrice

I've seen no email yet, but I'm an impatient bastitch =). the words "spamtrap" should be removed from those addies, in case you missed them ~ BrigandRansom , who should be asleep right now