Difference between revisions of "Discussions/RapeIsBad"

Revision as of 00:51, 22 September 2006

That's how I feel! --PassengerPigeon

I second! ~ Seiraryu

I also agree! -- Charlequin

Me too! - willows

If it needed to be said, yes, I concur. - Scrollreader

Agreed! - NatalieD

This really, really, shouldn't need to be said. But I.. uh... Also Concur! ~ DooM_GazE

Further agreed! Fight the power, man, fight the power! ...DeathBySurfeit

I'm going to be the odd one out. Yes, rape is bad, but, other than to agree with that fact, does this page serve a purpose? Also, it may be bad, but it's a (sad) fact of life in our society today, and not likely to go away. Better not to stick our heads in the sand. - Trithne

Uh, how are we sticking our heads in the sand? We made A WHOLE PAGE about it. Clearly we are aware of the issue. -- PassengerPigeon

But all you're saying is "Rape Is Bad". Well done, you've stated the obvious. How does this apply to us and our Exalted games, or, more importantly, to the wiki? - Trithne

Once again, is it really necessary to question the value of a wiki page simply because you don't like it? I'm sure I don't like lots of pages you like, but I'm not posting on them asking why they exist. -- PassengerPigeon

Is this actually linked from anywhere? Also, the Lunar book has a sidebar saying pretty much the same thing as Trithne, well written and sensible, tackling the issue (in my opinion) as well as could be done, and necessary for the Lunar setting. To my knowledge, noone has complained at that part of the book yet, so is there much need to start an unlinked, and thus seemingly useless page about it here?
-- Darloth hopes this will not be taken the wrong way

Agree's with page thesis. Actually, IIRC I remember people complaining about that sidebar on RPG.net, although I forget the exact context, so that isn't thas useful. Sorry. It would be nice if the page were linked somewhere(Discussions mabye), as then if it did come up, it would have a page. Although having it take up ~1-2K in the wiki database isn't really much of a problem. -FlowsLikeBits

Indeed; rape is sort of a hot-button issue, and in any kind of creative medium, it should be treated with taste, respect for the victims, and delicacy; I have a complaint against Lunars and Cult of the Rapekitty for failing in all three counts. - willows

Well, to me, having a page like this with just a bunch of agreements feels like it's trivializing it an not offering anything usefull. YMMV however. I'm not familiar enough with Lunars to comment on the cult though. -FlowsLikeBits ,who linked this in as a discussion, $->(:

I don't think it's really productive to question the value of every wiki page. It seems obvious to me, from the sheer number of people contributing, that it serves a valuable purpose -- otherwise people wouldn't be interested in it. If you don't like it, feel free to not add to the page. -- PassengerPigeon

... Unless you're an Abyssal! Actually wait, that gives them Resonance, doesn't it. -- OhJames

No, it specifically says 'consensual' in the litany of sins. Rape doesn't give an abyssal any resonance. The malfeans are sick like that, see.
-- Darloth

Unless a child results from it. - Trithne

In general, should it not be a discussion rather than a list of agreements then, and, most importantly, linked from somewhere? ^_^
-- Darloth

Nobody's dictating the way the page should go. Wiki is a spirit of creative collaboration. Feel free to discuss why and how rape is bad, or to add links to this page from whatever pages you deem appropriate! -- PassengerPigeon

Also, I still agree with this. -- PassengerPigeon

I hate boring discussions. How about this:

• Who here would include rape as a story element in an Exalted game?
  • Would you have one NPC rape another to get at the PCs (rape their SO, or some such)?
  • Would you have an NPC rape a PC as an alternative to character death when they are beaten by a very evil person?
  • Would you let a PC rape an NPC for any reason?
  • Would you let a PC rape another PC for any reason?
    • Whether yes or no to any of the above, please give your reasons. - IanPrice

The answers are no, no, no, no, and because it's unnecessary and generally quite unsafe to inflict on players whose history one almost certainly does not know well enough to be certain they'll react well to it. -- Charlequin

• I would include rape as a story element in an Exalted game, because it's too emotive to just ignore.
  • Yes. This is often likely to create even more enmity than if the NPC murdered their SO or whatever, because well, people are like that.
  • Yes. My players are mature enough to handle it, and, as above, it creates a stronger enmity.
  • Yes. Once again, player maturity comes into this, which is to say that they'd have to be playing an appropriate character and be in an appropriate situation, but yes.
  • Yes. Still on player maturity, this needs to be carefully played with, but it's not something to just ignore while allowing everything else.
    • I'm not condoning rape, I'm simply acknowledging it. - Trithne

I feel like you're really discussing the situations in which you WOULD use rape in a story. As such, I think this discussion might be better suited for RapeIsGood. -- PassengerPigeon

Not Necessarily. You're now saying that we shouldn't include rape in a story, which is ignoring a perfectly valuable story element, and a very emotive one too. Rape often generates stronger emotional reactions than murder does, and provided your player group is mature enough to handle the concept, using rape in a game can be a powerful tool. It's not endorsing rape, which your suggestion we make a "Rape is good" page implies. We're just willing to feature the subject. - Trithne

I disagree that maturity has anything to do with whether someone chooses to feature rape. Generally I think it has more to do with being reasonable and having a concept of sensible boundaries, unless, like, you make a point of going around to players before play starts and saying "I want to feature rape in my game! Who's in?" -- Charlequin

I believe that what you are defining as being reasonable and having a sense of boundaries is the same thing as what Trithne is calling "maturity." It could also be called "tact." As to your other comment, I do think it's a good idea to let players know if "adult" and "mature" subject matters such as rape will be dealt with in a game. Not in the off-hand way you put it, but as a serious notification. - IanPrice

Generally speaking I don't think "maturity" is the issue. The issue is that unlike murder (which you can easily screen for) GMs aren't generally going to have an idea of whether IC rape is something that can safely be brought up as an element of entertainment for their PCs unless they are extremely close and trusting with all of them. Even then I question the wisdom and necessity of including it as a plot element in a game that isn't explicitly and directly focused on the topic. -- Charlequin

Given that rape is a reality, and given that it is desirable to portray meaningful situations (thus, situations which somehow reflect reality), and given that the bad parts of reality (such as rape) should only be portrayed enough to make the game meaningful, the situations in which rape would be allowed are the ones which need to be discussed, since it's a bad thing. If it were a good thing, the exceptions to be worked out would be the situations not to allow it to appear in the story. Nobody wants good things to be all that happens all the time. Well, maybe in real life, but it makes a really boring game. The reverse is even more obviously true, that all bad all the time would be not only boring but unpleasant. I wouldn't keep playing with a person who found a constant focus on rape pleasant.

Even with player groups who I consider mature enough to not freak out or get turned on by rape, I would strongly discourage it. Even a Compassion •• character would have to fail a roll to rape someone. I would also make sure that the same kind of enmity was built against that PC as the PCs would have against any NPC who did such a thing.

Of course, in my player group, I'm less likely to have to deal with a PC doing the rape. Most of my friends like to play, if not paragons of virtue, at least honorable characters. So this leaves the question of how or if to use it. Several of my friends are also so scared of bad stuff happening to their characters that they stop having fun when something really bad happens. Some of them have had experiences with rape, too, making them especially sensitive to the issue. Even though the same goes for murder, combat and killing are more normal in games (role playing and otherwise). Therefore, I would portray rape only sparingly, and only if I felt I could pull it off without discouraging my players. - IanPrice

Well, I wasn't saying that I'd have everyone getting raped at any opportunity. For one, if I intend to feature it, I'll talk to all the players first before deciding wether or not to, because some people aren't comfortable around the idea of rape. My playergroup are long-standing friends and people I've come to know well, and I know the concept of rape won't go down in a silly manner, or cause arguments to flare up. If I was with a new group, I'd tell them that I play my games with a "mature" level of drama, and see about what they did and did not agree with.

Several people I've been close to have been victims of rape, I'm familiar with it, and it's effects. But I don't let that mean I'll refuse to do anything that involves rape even vaguely. Having an open mind, and maturity (Which is best described as the "being reasonable and having boundaries" Charlequin brought up) is something I look for in players, because I generally prefer to play games in that vein. My Exalted is heroic, yet dark, fantasy, where everything is larger than life, both the good and the evil. - Trithne

Wow. Well, I actually wrote an article about this a while back -- it's here. I say this not because I think I said anything particularly original but because I provided some links at the end of it that y'all might find interesting (to a previous, rather eloquent discussion group on this topic, for one). And now that I've given you that, I'm going to flee, because discussions like this tend to make me want to bust some heads with extreme rabidity.
~ Shataina

Please take it to RapeIsGood. - willows

Nobody here has ever said that rape is good. Nobody is saying it's an appropriate focus for the game at all times. Nor should there by any such discussion. - IanPrice

There should not be a RapeIsGood page, plain and simple. We're not saying rape is good. We're saying rape is story material. - Trithne

I'm not sure in what universe "X is a good thing to tell stories about" does not implicitly endorse the entertainment value of X. Defending the use of rape in storytelling is, frankly, revolting, and I am sorry to see you do it. A little piece of my heart died today. - willows

Well, that's allowed to be the case. Just don't judge me on it, and I won't judge you on what I see as narrow-mindedness. - Trithne

I guess, uh, the part where I judged you didn't come through very clearly in that prior post. - willows

That's okay, I saw it fine, just asked you not to do it again. Like anime, willows? Watch Fushigi Yuugi. Brilliant story, involves rape on many levels. Doesn't ever say it's entertaining, but uses it as an excellent tool. - Trithne

I still think rape is bad, even if some people don't seem to agree. -- PassengerPigeon

You're misunderstanding completely. We do agree that rape is bad; but I'm still going to use it in games where my players have agreed to the use of such "adult" concepts. - Trithne

I'd argue that rape isn't really an "Adult" concept per se. What it /is/ is an emotionally loaded one for many people, that may even be terribly traumatic for those who have previous experience with it in whatever form. If you've discussed rape in specific with your players, that's a different story. But agreeing to involve 'adult' concepts in a game is by no means agreeing that one is okay with rape in an RPG. ~DooM_GazE

A point I understand completely. Allow me to make myself a little more clear: When I say "adult" concepts, I mean that I'll outline my intent that the game may (note, "may", not "will") include things such as rape, abuse, cold murder, and other concepts that a ratings board would call "adult" or "mature" (That's where I get the term from, really.) - Trithne

The issue, Trithne, is one Willows aludded to but did not explicitly adress above. Rape is a 'cheap' kneejerk reaction tool, the large majority of the time. Like the so called 'adult' scenes in a movie, it is often used as a cheap reaction tool, in place of carefully crafted storytelling, and a serious discussion of the issues. I think calling either use of kneejerk reaction 'adult' is a far, far cry from actual adult behavior. - Scrollreader

I see your point, but disagree. Bad, "and you're raped, ahahaha" rape is kneejerk. Rape can be used in carefully crafted storytelling. I point to my above example of Fushigi Yuugi, for one. It's wrong, imo, to simply take the kneejerk reaction and pathologically avoid all rape if it's inclusion would be beneficial to a story. - Trithne, who's starting to feel like its him vs. the Wiki.

The question of this discussion seems to have shifted. It now seems to be: "Is it possible to portray rape without endorsing its entertainment value?"

• willows says no, and that even discussing using it in a story sickens him.
• Trithne says yes, and to discount it is narrow-mindedness.

Now, neither side has so far defended its view without resorting to the above-mentioned ad-hominem attacks, more commonly referred to in online discussions as "flames." Personally, I take the view that yes, it is possible to portray something without endorsing its entertainment value. There is no meaning without context. Rape portrayed by itself is sickening, because the only context is a meaningless act of violation. Rape portrayed in the context of a story can show how truly evil the antagonist is, as the easiest example. It can show the tragic flaw of an otherwise heroic character (Limit Break).

Something very like this happened to a character I played once. Word to wise GMs: don't take this option. - Hapushet

The problem in communication I discern here is the word "entertainment." If the story is good, yes, in some way it will be entertaining. That is, it will hold our interest, and we will derive some kind of pleasure from the experience. This is not a simple process, however. As I said before, now with different words, rape portrayed by itself would not be entertaining to any healthy, sane person. A story dealing with rape is different, though. The rape itself causes the same feelings as ever: horror, sickness, rage. These are appropriate things to feel about it, just as they would be when dealing with any other kind of torture, or gruesome murder. The point is that the story does not stop there, nor does it begin there. It begins with some kind of meaningful relationship (for instance, PC to SO). Then the rape occurs (such as NPC of SO). Then there are consequences (PC must comfort SO. PC must seek vengeance or justice re: NPC in some meaningful way). The consequences are especially important, as this is what makes the story entertaining: it is not the rape. It is comforting the rape victim. It is killing the SOB who did it. It is how you make it better when it seems like it can't get any worse. - IanPrice

Thank you! You explained it in a way that summarises my opinion perfectly. And I do apologise for the flaming, It's late and I was irritable, and willows pushed me a bit. But that's my point: Rape can be part of a story. Not a story unto itself. Hopefully this will calm this thread down a little. - Trithne, who should go to bed,it being 7am and he's not slept.

I assumed as much. Thus why I pointed it out, but didn't scold you, or even him, for it. This is a topic on which emotions get heated, so it is understandable. It is still desirable to avoid, of course, which is why I tried to defuse it. - IanPrice

What I wonder is if Willows feels the same way about other things that are wrong. Murdering is wrong. Especially wholesale slaughtering of many people. Subjigating people, slavery and all that are all wrong as well. Theft is certainly wrong, as is looting graves. So what I am wondering, is if even the bad guys can't do the things that are wrong, what exactly happens in Willow's games? Is every enemy a patriot that is only fighting for the good of their home? Is there no insane people, no desperate people? Is Nexus the city of free trade of ideas and fair market practices? Does the Realm decide to merely restrain Solars instead of murdering them in cold blood due to prejudiced religious upbringing? That's pretty horrifying there, killing someone for religious beliefs. What exactly makes rape different from any other crime? Yeah, if someone has been raped it is a sore spot. If my brother had been murdered by religious zealots, then religious zealots would be a sore spot for me. That doesn't mean I would outlaw it in any game I played or ran. Jaelra

I'm glad to see that we know how to use the slippery slope fallacy. - willows

FourWillowsWeeping, that's not the slippery slope at all. Those are actual valid examples of "Why is rape treated differently than all of these other things?". A slippery slope would be saying that by allowing rape in game, you'd eventually have to have other, worse problems, and thus, rape shouldn't be allowed, as hey - once you start down that path, it's a slippery slope. In Jaelra's post, he's asking a valid question. Murder, in particular, is the most interesting point. I doubt any of you have played in an Exalted game where no one died. Nearly as many have played games where the PC's are the ones who killed someone. Yet this is OK, and rape isn't? What makes rape special? Is it any better if it's rape-then-murder, so there's no long-lasting emotional scarring? What about post-murder relations? Any better? Why is a capital crime (murder) considered more reasonable than a felony offense? -- GregLink, amazed at how "willows" often seems to simply blurt out debate methods or attacks on others, rather than actually discussing the topic at hand

It seems like, "You exclude thing X, so why not Y and Z and...? is an equally slippery slope, greggles. - w

Very nice there willows. Reply to a post claiming that you have a tendency to avoid the topic of discussion by calling the previous poster 'greggles'. Wow. I am consistently shocked by your utter lack of civility and maturity. Consider me as yet one more person who won't bother to read or reply to your further postings. -- GregLink

That would be a relatively civil and if not mature, then reasonable reply from you, Greg, if the only word in his post was the last one. You neatly ignored his direct counter to your claim that the slippery-slope argument was not being brought to the table. I am "shocked" by your "utter lack" of careful reading and thoughtful reply. - David.

Yes, you're right, of course. Always bad to claim immaturity of others - it always means that you're letting it show you're at the end of your rope, and hence acting not-so-good yourself. Still, I can at least claim I'm offended. -- GregLink, hating to let anything resembling emotion slip. Gotta love those Vulcans.

I propose a Discussions/DiscussingRapeIsBad page...DeathBySurfeit

Yes. Oversensitising to everything. I think it's fairer to say that everyone has a line, based on their own perceptions of what is worse. Most people consider rape worse than murder on the scale of things, and I imagine willows draws the line inbetween murder and rape. I draw it beyond rape. Still hate it and will happily castrate a rapist without hesistation. - Trithne

I still can't really see how there is anything more to say than "use to whatever extent you feel it helps the story and you and your group are comfortable with". I do think there is a difference in how it is used in the story. I can see an argument to have it as an element of plots(XYZ villian murdered my family an raped my sister and now there is a vengance quest against that Cynis!), but...I can't see any point in giving it screen time. (There are a number of things like this. They happen, and the fact that they happen is usefull in storys, as are the consequences of them happening. But the actuall even, other than the fact that hit happened, isn't that interesting and doesn't deserve screen time. ) -FlowsLikeBits

Well, yeah. All that's often needed is to simply make it obvious what's going to happen, and "fade to black". I'm not exactly going to enjoy describing out a rape scene, it doesn't "float my boat", and if it does for any of my players, then even I'd question the validity of having someone like that in the group. - Trithne

Actually, FlowsLikeBits hit it right on the head, here. Rape, as Ian and Trithne have dicussed, can be worked into a roleplay with amazing results, if the actual rape is only a tiny part of the equation. Giving the rape air time seems like a bad idea. I used this angle once, at about a three year point in a WoD Mage game. It had to be handled extremely well. Basically, I made sure the players had no clue, IC or OOCly, what was going on with the raped character. Alone with the raped PC, we worked over a few things, we dicussed how this scene would have played out (because, even if we weren't going to play it, I wanted them to realize that infernalist corrupted Choiristers are very nasty people). And that was the best way I can think of to do such a scene. When the IC curtain came back up, and we were back into playing, we were about to work the shock of the PCs and their emotions into a very well constructed game, while keeping within everyone's relative comfort zones. Of course, it required a great deal of maturity on everyone's part, but it is an amazing angle to work with. You have to know everyone's general lines of comfort, and then, yes, you can work within them. If rape is within them, it is a very gruesome, but amazingly powerful plot hook, though it should always be done with maturity and tact, and never abused in any manner. -Bassist159

Hi there! Echo: Rape is bad. However, there is a set of strong emotions that can be used in a game with serious players and ST. I seriously doubt that such a group has any knowledge of a raped person in their social vicinity. Also, there is a in-game reference to a rape in the Uka the Boar introduction. I would strongly suggest leaving the notion of rape far away from roleplaying, despite any verbal consensus. The reason is very simple. Rape is associated with shame for most raped survivors (trust me, I've met more than a few), particularly among men (whom I have met none). I can bet, that if I had survived a rape, and all the others in my group would agree, I'd agree too despite the pain of the game. I'd rather do that than tell everyone why I'm not comfortable in the situation to the others. Most likely, I'd mess up intentionally to avoid going to the game or messing up the campaign in hope of another. Either way, no fun. The next step in this discussion is about openness and caring. In a way, one could argue that bringing these things to light might actually be good for the mental health of the person. So, I challenge anyone who asks or plan to ask their players about rape in-game to prepare for the notion that someone might say: "I'm uncomfortable because I am a victim of said action". Would you be able to care for this person? Show empathy and silently listen to the story of the painful event? Would you get used to the smile on his or her face when they tell you the details? Would you refrain from seeking revenge yourself or even stopping the survivor of taking revenge, even if it is your best friend or loved one (such actions are VERY non-constructive and should be avoided at great cost)? Would you support (financially or socially) the survivor to go seeking professional help on the matter? Would you be able to avoid getting to caught up in it yourself too much (i.e., co-dependency)? Would you be able to avoid victimizing the survivor? [This is a notion that all survivors that I have spoken to have expressed explicitly as one of the most feared outcomes of telling others, hence the shame and well-kept secrecy] If you can confidently say "yes" to all these questions (and some that I have forgotten), then go right ahead and introduce it in your game. If you're unsure about these things, then avoid using rape in your game. Clebo's rule of summoning demons and elementals: Only summon the things you can control. Clebo, experienced in listening (as a friend or lover) to personal stories about the thorniest of issues multiple times.

Rape is not always bad. Some people have rape fantasies and I'm not just talking about the aggressors. Everything is subjectve. -- Anonymous

I went ahead and made the page /MurderIsGood because even I wouldn't dare to make the page /RapeIsGood. But the logical way of thinking works the same, and there's less impact of people thinking I condone rape (which they might) because nobody in their right mind can think I condone robbing people of their lives. - Morrigu

I am utterly sickened by the fact that you think murder is good. Furthermore, it's not the topic of this page -- please try to work within the wiki system, in a spirit of creative collaboration. -- PassengerPigeon

Rememcall that wikis flow. Also /MurderIsGood isn't condoning the very act of murder, it's condoning the use of murder as storytelling tool. The page exists because any attempts to make such a point here were rapidly overwhelmed in a spree of 'take it to RapeIsGood' demands. Ugh - Trithne,who would really like to know why you dreged this old page up from the depths just to say that.

Please don't feed the troll. They don't listen to your explanations, but ignoring them generally makes them go away. Or perhaps causes them to enter a cysted phase, I'm not sure, I skipped trollbio. -WillCoon