Difference between revisions of "Thus Spake Zaraborgstrom/AvoidanceKata"

Latest revision as of 04:07, 9 June 2010

Demons and Avoidance Kata

*giggle*

Avoidance Kata is kind of an odd duck. (*cough*) Note that it doesn't actually change the past---fate doesn't do that. What Avoidance Kata is is a message to the Loom of Fate in the *now* saying, "Oh, by the way, I foresaw this, and I'm not here."

And it's true.

As far as anyone can prove. (See "On Memory", p. 131.)

The demon, if high enough rank to be outside of fate, will remember the first few seconds of the fight. It will be aware---if intelligent enough to grasp the idea---that the Sidereal decided retroactively that she was never there.

Others watching the fight will remember the first few seconds, but, well, obviously they were confused, since it's transparently clear that the Sidereal was never there.

For most practical purposes, she wasn't!

People remembering her there is the controlled equivalent of the glitches in fate you get when the loom snarls---you know, the ones where people drown after being pulled out of the lake, or get hacked into pieces and wake up the next morning perfectly fine.

Rebecca

Avoidance Kata and the Loom of Fate

If it's the one I'm thinking of, you're reading too much into it.

Sidereals can get away with things like Avoidance Kata because reality *is* the Loom of Fate. If the pattern spiders decide that the Sidereal was somewhere else all along, it means that that's the new context for events.

("Hi! I just appeared. I've been here all along."
"Yah. I noticed."
"Which?"
"Both.")

It doesn't actually mean that the past changed, or that it fits all the facts. In fact, cleaning up the snarls that *anyone's* Charms can lead to---such as people drowning in a lake and then going back to their life rather than reincarnating---is part of the Sidereal job.

I theorize that this is, in part, why Sidereal Charms don't get Paradox. A certain amount of screw-up is necessary when you try to apply fate to high-Essence types, and the spiders are happier when at least it's one of a limited group of roughly 150 effects than when it's 'anything at all' like with astrology. Sidereal Charms, because of the direct fate manipulation, are more blatant about this than Solar Charms---but even so, every time you use Excellent Strike or, heck, a stunt, there's a small but meaningful chance you're screwing up fate's plan for you.

Rebecca

Consequences of using Avoidance Kata

Hm!

Some people have accurately spotted the intended logic behind this---that it's easiest to pin down a Sidereal who thinks she's going to win.

But it's true; not every character has the kind of mind that works that out. Luring the Sidereal into committing herself is an obvious trick---*if* you know that Avoidance Kata *can* be beaten. And some Solars will start with the assumption that it can, because assuming unbeatable opponents is pointless; and other Solars will get frustrated and go pound a city to ruin to work off their tension; and others yet will go off on blind-alleys like investigating what messes with prophecy.

However, the other suggestion floated on this thread---give the Sidereal something to fight for---is solid. One of the major ways that Avoidance Kata isn't as good as *actually* not being there is . . . you don't get to retroactively implement a backup plan. Your Storyteller can, if she chooses, but the Sidereal's player doesn't get to. And that means that declaring "I'm not here!" when your family or your stuff or everything you've worked your life to build is being threatened . . .

. . . isn't something you're going to do unless you're *totally* sure you can't win.

Rebecca

[#Details]

Details on Avoidance Kata

rebeccaborgstrom - 10/11/2003 06:44:21

It's up to the Storyteller.

I recommend erasing mundane evidence and things done by or to the Sidereal on the turn the Charm is invoked.

Thus:

Turn 1
------

SIDEREAL: I get initiative. I throw some knives and enhance them with a Charm.
ABYSSAL: I cut off the Sidereal's arm.

Turn 2\\ ------

ABYSSAL: I get initiative and cut off the Sidereal's other arm.
SIDEREAL: Er. Suckweasel. Um.
ABYSSAL: Um?
SIDEREAL: I'm not here.

The ABYSSAL: hurt by some knives. Who hurt him? He's not sure. Maybe he just burst into cuts. That happens sometimes.

The SIDEREAL: in the woods somewhere, looking blankly at a bear that has just torn off her arm. But at least she still has *one*.

Turn 3
------

SIDEREAL: Why am I fighting a bear?
STORYTELLER: For my amusement.
SIDEREAL: Er.
STORYTELLER: You're trying to demonstrate your l33t sk1llz to that wind spirit you've been flirting with. So far, it's not going very well.

------

THE KNIVES: Back on the Sidereal's belt.

And, yes, the Siddy's going to beat the bear. Having to repeat Avoidance Kata several times is just silly. :)

Rebecca

Foot Trapping Counter vs Avoidance Kata

rebeccaborgstrom - 10/30/2003 19:39:31

My copy of Lunars isn't handy, so I can't check text. Thus, I can't give a ruling.

In *general*, I don't see why something like that wouldn't work. The Sidereal isn't "wasn't ever there" *yet*. If you keep the Sidereal from becoming "wasn't ever there" while the Sidereal is still "was already there", the Sidereal won't never have been there to begin with. That's logic.

So I'd definitely allow it in a Lunars game, or a Sidereal game (although Storytellers should use it with caution). I would need to analyze text to see whether it'd be appropriate in Exalted: Kombat or an Exalted MUSH. I don't know of any of the latter, though, and if you're using Avoidance Kata in an E:K duel you have something wrong with your brain, so :)

Rebecca

The Nature of Avoidance Kata

rebeccaborgstrom - 03/26/2004 19:10:07

It may help not to think of it as deception or mind control. It's information.

When you say "You suddenly realize that the Sidereal was never here," you're not lying to the PCs and asking them to swallow that lie. You're giving them data. It's not data they completely understand, it's just an instinct, but that happens a lot with weird supernatural effects---you realize something, but not necessarily the whole picture.

In this case, you're telling them "the Sidereal was never here" because that's how people in the world sense, process, and understand "the Loom of Fate has just updated to declare that the Sidereal was never here."

It's like telling them "that didn't happen" to explain a sorcerous illusion, when they roll well enough to figure out that something funky went on but not well enough to figure out what. It's not trying to fool the PCs. It's trying to give them data.

Rebecca

Falling Damage

One problem with excluding falling damage from HGD is that it opens the way for attack Charms or effects---most obviously for Primordials---that do falling damage to void perfect defenses.
PLANETARY IMPACT . . . STRIKU!

Rebecca

who thinks falling damage is either from getting hit with Creation or from pattern spider natural law fiat, both of which Primordials and artifacts could simulate.

Other Questions

This covers a lot of the problems with Avoidance Kata, but what if someone's trying to track down the Sidereal? When the pursuit catches up to the Sidereal he Katas away and was never there. So then the pursuit keeps tracking like they were doing and this goes on until the Sideral either looses them or runs out of essence?

And how far away is the Sidereal after he uses Avoidance Kata? If it's only 1-4 turns from a combat can the people left see (in open terrain) where the Sidereal "actually was" all that time? Can the Sidereal use this ability to constantly ambush during a combat? (You meet an abyssal, I Avoidance Kata, I was behind that corner all this time, and then I leap out and attack Ok, then he swings his Diaklave at you... I Avoidance Kata again, I was actually in that shrub, and I leap out and attack...)

Sorry for the twinkish example, I just see so many problems with that charm - Myrlan

Where the Sidereal ends up is upto the Pattern Spiders via the Storyteller. If the Sidereal was never in that bush after all, then they were perhaps delayed in Gem, crouching behind the Despot's favourite bush. I would definitely not have them in the other perfect bush for ambushing the Abyssal. Once they use the Kata, they are out of the encounter for good! Have Fun... Nikink

Yeah, the example was a gross exaggeration, but I'm not sure it's in the spirit of the game to say: "you're out of the encounter for good!" Especially if there's a subsequent event that would have drawn the Sidereal's attention (Like the normal looking bandit suddenly lighting up like a beacon, etc.) - Myrlan

But the point of the Kata is to remove the Sidereal from the encounter for good. It re-writes the Loom to say, nope, I'm not there, that'd be stupid, I'd die if I was there... therefore I'm smart enough to not be there... I'm a Sidereal, I can forsee dumb mistakes like that! And thus the Sidereal always was somewhere else the whole time. Unless they were facing a Lunar with Foot-Trapping Counter, and then they are probably screwed! B-) Have Fun... Nikink ahem... that should be reply to myrlan

I don't see that anywhere in the charm, but it doesn't bother be nearly as much as what happens to someone tracking the exalted. - Myrlan

The unfortunate schmuck tracking the Sidereal who just used Avoidance Kata suddenly finds that that that time at the crossroads when the tracks got all confused, he must have lost him then or whatever. If they are a supernatural tracker, well, they suddenly find the trail got alot longer, or rather was always that long..yes I'm sure it was. weird that I thought I was just about to catch the guy I was tracking... - Kraken

So how far away is the Sidereal supposed to go? Sure, sure it says storyteller discretion (and I suppose any Siderial could get dumped in the Abyss any time he tried to use it), but where is he supposed to end up, yards or miles? - Myrlan

He could end up anywhere in Creation (only those places affected by the loom of Fate - so no Abyss, Wyld or Malfean Castle). It really is upto the Storyteller to make it somewhere reasonable and logical for the game... just as it's upto the Pattern Spiders to actually do what the Sidereal requests, and get him out of where he is by re-writing the loom. Have Fun... nikink

Another thought is that it could be possible to alter the Charm a bit. Sure, it'd still get you out of there, but maybe someone used Necro/Sorcery/high Ess Charms to basically toss you from a warming up frying pan straight into the fire. Sure, you're out of the danger you knew into one just as bad or worse! Just think of it as a PS to the "note" of Avoidance Kata ^_^ - haren

See "Storyteller discretion?" That means that the Storyteller should be intelligent, but not an asshole. The following interpretation lies on shaky textual ground: Avoidance Kata is a Dodge. Its name is Avoidance Kata, not Ambush Kata. I.e., it is something you use to get out of a bad situation, not set up a series of uncomfortable situations for others. Therefore, the Sidereal should be retroactively relocated to somewhere that makes the encounter impossible. - willows

So it becomes the ultimate anti-tracking charm? Once you catch the Sidereal he disappears and now you cannot possibly catch (encounter) him? I'm not trying to be contrary, but without some better guidelines on what this charm is supposed to do it would seem to me that using this charm submits you entirely to the whim of the storyteller unless they define how they will run it very well at the beginning of the game. This might be fine if you have an amazing storyteller, but my storytellers often change their mind on how to run abilities as nebulas as this, and I think it very detrimental to have characters act in a certain way because of how their powers work, only to have them do something completely different when the check comes due. - Myrlan

Why are you going to track something that you didn't even know to look for? Look, it doesn't seem like you want to understand this Charm because you want to use it - it seems like you want to poke holes in it because you don't like it and have nothing better to do. Why do you think that we will continue answering your questions, when it seems clear that you are not troubling to do any careful, unclouded thinking yourself? - willows

Are you saying that after tracking the Sidereal for five days, when you finally catch him and he uses Avoidance Kata, you're suddenly out in the middle of nowhere and don't even know who you're looking for anymore, or am I completely misinterpreting you? If I made it seem like I'm just some troll trying to bother everyone, that was not my intent, but I do see problems with this charm, which indeed make me not want to use it. If there is a way to make this a usable charm, then that is what I'm here to gather.

I ask because I have questions, and have not the slightest clue why you or anyone else deems to answer, but I appreciate it. If there are any specific points that I am failing to respond to or obvious logic that I'm not seeing, please enlighten me; but if your insults are only written to provoke, I refuse to lower myself to that level. Perhaps when I have a really bad day I'll bother to question your simian heritage, but until then, adieu. - Myrlan

Yes, I realized later that you weren't referring to Sidereal Ninja Attack!!, but to this other situation, which is different. In the case of pursuit, the usage of Avoidance Kata means, I think, that the pursuers suddenly discover they were following the wrong trail! This doesn't stop them from backtracking, though, or using supernatural tracking methods that are more intelligent than ears & eyes. Now, I'm one of those people who generally believes that if a person sees problems with a thing, then they should offer a solution along with it, and I've become frustrated with your comments on this Charm because you're mounting basically a massive destructive critique. If Avoidance Kata were some wikizen's custom Charm for their Sidereal game (in a world where Sidereals create Charms), would this conversation go differently?

Following Niknik's idea that AK works based on plot immunity and how well the Spiders like you, if you wanted to make a mechanistic guideline for the distances this Charm can involve, I would base it on Paradox (reducing distance) and Essence (increasing distance). - willows

You know who you are looking for, and you can continue to track them, it's just that they were never there. That's right, not there, where you may have just thought they were, they aren't, and in fact never were, you were mistaken somehow... obviously... why else is your daiklave drawn? But the fact remains that they aren't there and thus you must keep tracking them. Whatever tracks led you to think they were right here, need to be followed to where they actually are... that's one cunning mofo... to not be here right now where his tracks indicate he should be... right?

Meanwhile, the Sidereal is breathing a sigh of relief that he managed to Charm his way out of a confrontation with a Psychotic Exalt (if only for a while, be that hours, days, or weeks until the Exalt catched up again) and then turns around upon hearing a noise and is suddenly set upon by a gang of bandits...

Any clearer? Have Fun... Nikink

"be that hours, days, or weeks" That was kind of what I was hoping for some direction on, should it really be that variable (and arbitrary), and should that be the (soft) limits? Thanks - Myrlan

I think Willows was referring to the 'SIDEREAL NINJA ATTACK!!' that totally suprises you, followed by this charm (such that you don't remember the attack, even, nor the sidereal), not it's use in getting rid of someone who already knows you exist, and is hunting you actively. Also, if you read some of the things Willows posts in his other comments, he's hardly the type who provokes conflict intentionally :P. There /is/ no hard and fast rule for this. Nor are there for many other things in a sidereal game. If your storyteller can't (or won't) consistently use his GM Fiat in a responisble, and reasonable way, you might not be ready for Sidereals, yet.

Scrollreader

PS: The amount of time it takes the Exalt to find the sidereal is, basically, a function of distance. If the spiders are upset with him (The Greater Curse flaw, perhaps?) he gets plunked down a mile or so away. Depending on circumstances, he might end up on the far side of creation, in which case, the Exalt has some walking to do.  :P

Well... in my games I would use those as very soft limits. It would ultimately fall upon what was best needed for the rest of the story... so yes, it is very vague. If I was running a Sidereal Game, I'd let the PC get away from the Bad Guy reasonably well, but I would let the Bad Guy remain able to follow and track down... the PC has given himself some breathing room to work on a better defence than constant fleeing... If I was running a different Game, and the Sidereal was the foe, I'd let the PC's have a chance to continue tracking or discover the new whereabouts, and it wouldn't be easy, but no harder than before the encounter... If the Sidereal was a mentor type or Major Plot Device, who was randomly attacked for no good reason by some ultra-disruptive Player... then Avoidance Kata would get him out of the way for good, barring tremendous efforts by the PCs... Have Fun... Nikink

Ok, if he was referring to the ninja attack thing, I admitted that it was stupid when I wrote it, but I continue to believe that there is nothing in the charm as written that prevents it. That point aside, it seems that everyone posting here has no problem with Avoidance Kata placing the user anywhere in or outside of creation at the whim of the storyteller. I still take issue with that, but since the problem seems to be mine alone I will no longer burden any of you with it. Thank you all for your help. - Myrlan

My interpretation is: the Sidereal ends up somewhere where it would be logical for him to be had he NOT chosen to do the thing that got him into the situation he's escaping from. So instead of going out into the wilderness where the Solar could track him, he stayed home, or decided to go to the nearest city and wait for reinforcements. Upon using Avoidance Kata, he is now home, in the nearest city, or wherever else logical. He doesn't just appear somewhere at random. - Kalisara

As Scrollreader noted, MSM and Yu-Shan gates make "somewhere where it would be logical for him to be" a fairly wide area. However, it depends on where the "decision point" the spiders decide to use is. If, for example, the road/trail the Sidereal is on happens to have forked a couple mines back, he'll probably end up a few miles down the other fork. OTOH, if he had ust left Nexus, it's quite possible that "somewhere logical" is back home chillin' in his manse in Yu-Shan. --ReallyBored

Myrlan: I don't particularly see the problem with putting the Sidereal anywhere in creation, really. Any Sidereal with the Sail tree can go anywhere they want in a couple days anyway. And any sidereal, regardless of charms, can just take the nearest gate to Yu-Shan, hop a cloud, and make it from Wavecrest to Rathess in a day, if they have an urgent enough reason. All of which give them a /choice/ in where they go. Sidereals have much better travel agents than other Exalts, is all.  :P - Scrollreader

I will point out that a Sidereal (as I understand it) can currently only enter Yu-Shan through the use of MSM or a gate, the latter of which can only be opened with OtSD (and you still need salary, a celestial manse, or essence 6+ to get past the lions) or the aid of a spirit (which I suppose you don't technically need a charm to interact with, if you just happen to come across a benign materialized spirit wherever you are). As I said before, I'm cool with being the only one with this problem, don't let me rain on what works for you. - Myrlan

I would imaging, though that Yu-Shan gates in well-travelled areas would probably be manned on both ends, with the lion guards on one side and someone to keep the unwary from being eaten on the other, as well as to maintain a front establishment to hide the gate. For example, the Nexus gate would almost certainly be kept as an open secret in the city, probably staffed by someone that can open it for travellers. -- Reallybored

I think the rules work pretty well to avoid the SIDEREAL NINJA ATTACK!! problem. Right in the description of Avoidance Kata, it says it may only be used in the first two turns of combat. If you fight one turn, AK away, return, fight another turn, AK away again, and return one last time...that's the third round of combat. You can't use AK anymore. Presuming the Pattern Spiders (and the ST) felt that it was reasonable to move you only a short distance away everytime you used AK. As for your destination when you use the Charm, rather than "Roll On the Random Location Table" I think some kind of logical alternate destination is the best place to sent Sidereals using this Charm. I.E.: Siddie X is walking through the streets of the Imperial City. He is attacked by ninja! He uses AK. Well, what's the next most logical place for him to be if he's not walking down the streets? Probably back in his apartment. Oops, there are ninja there too, waiting for him! He uses AK again. What's the next most logical place for him to be? The Palace, close by the Dragon-Blooded noble he's been advising under the guise of an Immaculate monk. Oh no! The Palace is in chaos, everyone is fighting, the long-awaited Realm Civil War has begun! Use AK again. Where's the next most logical place to be? Back in the Palace Sublime. Etc. The Pattern Spiders probably aren't willing to make gross changes to the Loom just because a Sidereal used a relatively basic Charm. They're going to pick the easiest and simplest place to put you. Pattern Spiders are lazy like that. -LiOfOrchid

Hmm. Myself.. well. I've nto used any Sidereals In game - yet - But I happen t othink that charm is rather pretty: and how I tend t othink of it, is that Pattern spiders want the /least possible disruption/. So they won't just plonk you down /anywhere/, It will be as if at some critical point you decided to do /that/ instead of what you did, and thus are where you would be in you'd done that.. In the tracking example, I'd say that at point X, earlier on in the day, You'd taken /that/ fork in the road, rather than the one you had done, and thus are where you would be if that had happened. Say, if Im' feeling vindictive, just creeping up to the bandit camp.. - Molikai

I think Quendalon's Another Destiny Atemi is a good way to express the mechanics behind AK. - willows