Latest revision as of 22:05, 24 December 2010

The Kukla

Or "statting that-which-must-not-be-statted for fun and profit!"

I've been thinking about the upper echelons of Exalted-setting power level recently -- where it is, precisely, and, implicitly, how to get there. I'm not of the sort that really thinks the Kukla needs to be statted out, but it seems like an interesting sort of experiment in design theory. Partially, what sort of things does a creature of this magnitude do when it has its way, power- and strategy-wise, and how does one hope to stand against it? Secondly, what mad dots does he deserve to represent this might, and can even God Himself create a character sheet which could contain them all?

I'm just going to start with some inspirative discussion from the WWMB. Toss in some more, dammit -- you're already looking at the page. _Wohksworth

THINGS THE KUKLA CAN DO

1. Fuck up a large (<100) number of high-power Celestial Exalts without too much trouble.
2. Demolish terrain like a rolling carpet bombing
3. Survive damn near anything
4. Sleep for a very, very long time

Mish-mash

Subject: The Kukla
uthred - 04/17/2004 14:27:44 - uthred@eircom.net

Anyone used him in their game ? If so what stats did you use ? (just curious)

Subject: The Kukla
Similarian - 04/18/2004 00:15:04

Here's a off the wall stat up for that dreaded dragon\\ Physical Attributes\\ Str 40 (Kukla!)\\ Dex 8 (Big, not to fast)\\ Sta 50 (Kukla!)\\ Social Attributes\\ Manipulation 4\\ Appearence 4 (he's a pretty giant dragon)\\ Charisma 7 (Lots of force of personality, are you going to argue with a giant dragon? I think not!)\\ Mental Attributes\\ Perception 4\\ Intellgence 5\\ Wits 4\\ Abilities\\ Too lazy to figure them out, Brawl up the wazoo, and a lot of Endurance, Resistance, and Lore, Presence 10 with Indimitation +5 or so seems fair.\\ Willpower 10\\ Valor 5\\ Conviction 5\\ Temperence 5\\ Compassion 2\\ Soak- 100B/80L (Dragon Hide 60B/60L) Oversoak/Hardness- 20 B/20L\\ Health Levels (he's miles long!)\\ -0 x20\\ -1 x40\\ -2 x80\\ -4 x40\\ Incap\\ Essence 8 Essence Pool- 134\\ Elemental Powers- All tied to earth, a number of powers tied to fire as well.\\ Charms- Lots and lots, anything Essence 4 or below is likely. He doesn't have magical travel charms however. A ton of unqiue charms related to earth as well.\\

This is slightly tongue in cheek, but I'd probably use something somewhat like this if I ever did need Kukla.

Similarian

Subject: The Kukla
ikselam - 04/18/2004 10:27:56

Only 134 motes in his pool seems awfully low. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall some little sidebar in GoD which states that god- armor is ping-proof. In EPC rules, this would translate into it having hardness equal to its full soak value. Don't know if that would apply to elemental creatures like Special K, though.

If I was the kind of guy who felt the need to stat Kukla, I'd probably use Mount Mostath as a model.

Subject: The Kukla\\
JabberwockyX - 04/18/2004 15:53:15 - jabberwocky_x@yahoo.com 

Yeah, I was just peeking at Mostath, thinking about how he compares with the Kukla. Given that Mostath's probably somewhat weaker than the Kukla, and his Strength and Stamina are 'immeasurable', that doesn't bode well for those people who really want to roll four-hundred damage dice.

And, for the record:

- I would put Kukla's strength and stamina above 300, and make any post-soak dice on its damage roll automatically succeed (cleverly alleviating the 'many hundreds of dice' problem, and its normal attacks do aggravated damage. Like Desidus says, only Perfect-Applicability Perfect Defenses can avoid blows from his claws, and they affect anyone within a hundred feet of their intended target.

- Soak would probably be okay around 300 L\600 B, with the notes that anything which does not bypass soak does no ping damage, and that piercing weapons don't halve soak, and that, like First Age ships, it's outright immune to any non-magical attacks. It automatically makes any rolls Stamina, Resistant, or Endurance, and is Perfectly stable, unable to be moving except by his own volition.

- As long as the Kukla moves, any attackers whose melee attacks which hit and do lethal damage, even if they don't /do/ any damage, must roll Str+Ability at Diff. 6, or have their weapon ripped out of their hands, pinched between the Kukla's scales.

- Anyone under its flight path suffers, say, a 100L, Piercing, from shards of earth thrown up by the massive shifts in pressure and the absurd burst of Earth Essence as Kukla passes by -- this razes the landscape below him, for the most part leaving only freshly tilled fertile dirt where once their were cities or forests.

Ugh, let's not think about supernatural effects. At any rate, fighting Kukla is like trying to fight the River of Tears, or the Southeastern corner of Creation -- it borders on nonsensical (which, far from being impossible, at least takes a mind-boggling, creative approach.). The only way I could see facing the Kukla would be a... stealth assualt (!) inside him, to destroy some central Essence gates, or something.

Subject: The Kukla
Fifth - 04/18/2004 16:19:31

Of course, the easiest way to kill him is simple: Pattern Spider Touch.

Subject: The Kukla
ikselam - 04/18/2004 16:47:31

Kukla uses his perfect defense, Unyielding Earthen Stasis Prana, which causes his Essence to crystallize, briefly rendering his form and spirit invulnerable to any change whatsoever.

Then it's time for TOTAL BURNINATION!!

Subject: The Kukla
kzzk - 04/18/2004 19:37:11 - butula13@hotmail.com

Assmuing the Kukla's ear-hole is proportionally similar to that of a human, and assmung that the human ear-hole is about a half inch in diameter, further assuming that the average human is 5'10 (70 inches), and finally assuming that the kukla is 3 miles long (no GoD on hand) it's ear is 10' or so from side to side. Ward yourself against fire, fly one of those flaming chariot-things (from Solar Circle) inside its head, and go berserk. It shouldn't take TOO long to chop through its brain stem.

Subject: The Kukla
ikselam - 04/18/2004 19:53:50

>It shouldn't take TOO long to chop through its brain stem. <

This is making the somewhat optimistic assumptions that the Kukla (or any elemental) needs its brain to function, that it's not made of rock inside AND out, and that its blood isn't white-hot magma or something.

KUKLA UBER ALLES!

&nsbp;

What kind of lousy Solar would let a trifling thing like white-hot magma get in the way of killing something? Not the sort of Solar I want hanging around with my kids, let me tell you...

-Random_Nerd

If I ever end up using the Kukla, and mind you I run pretty high-powered campaigns, his stats would be along the lines of "You die." --Prions

At which point you'd need those Essence 8 Solar charms that read "I win!" --Halloween

Personally, I'd make the Kukla suffer from the huge creature penalties in Savage Seas. Not that they'd matter much. Since Autochtonians suggests that Govisoshi, a Thousand Forged Dragon, could oppose the Kukla in very Mecha Godzilla kind of fashion, it seems exceedingly silly that the Kukla would have stats in the hundreds. To be frank, I think the stats up in the hundreds for the Kukla are just ridiculous. The Similarian's stats with 40 and 50 still seems a little high to me, and the soak and HLs are way too much (halving the soak'd be good, and taking the health levels down to 10 x -0, 15 x -1, 18 x -2, and 24 x -4, Inc seems better to me), but the closest to acceptable of the lot. Taking out the Kukla is the reason you introduce things like the Five Metal Shrike, go repair the lens of Oliphem, and bind the Brass Leviathan to your control. ~ Andrew02

I think stats, period, for the Kukla are kind of absurd. I suspect that a PC-versus-Kukla fight that I was participating in would end with me (no, not my character, me) transforming into a giant computer screen and flashing the words, "You Have Lost Exalted, Go Play D&D", or something similar. - David.

But why? Exalted is all ABOUT (well, can be all about) fighting impossible odds and defeating god-monsters larger than a city. If all the exalt types working togeather can kill primordials with essence 3-4 charms, then they should damn well be able to manage the Kukla!
-- Darloth

In my opinion, the Primordial War did not involve a lot of Essence 3-4 Charms (except on the part of the Siddies). Oh, and also, it involved a full 300 Solars, each paired with a Lunar specifically trained to protect and compliment them, topped off with 100 Siddies working together (no Great Curse!) to plan SUPER MEGA STEALTH ATTACKS and backed by several thousand (or tens of thousands of) DBs. And they were also outiftted by Autobot Himself. And they had Sol, Luna, and the Maidens cheering them on from the sidelines. Why should a bunch of disorganized, bickering young demigods outfitted with steel armor and daiklaves, be able to stand up to the singlemost nasty elemental in all Creation without some serious sneakiness? -- OhJames

My own thought is that the best way to have PCs slay the Kukla wouldn't be a face to face fight on the outside--rather, the PCs must get INSIDE the Kukla and attack its vital organs. Once its brain is a puddle of goo and its heart and lungs stop working, then it dies. But of course, this means beating its 'immune system' first. --JohnBiles

Assuming, of course, that the Kukla actually has a functioning brain, heart, or lungs, and that it actually needs them ;) - David.

I really can't see Elementals or Gods in Exalted having need of either. If memory serves, S&S or Bo3C describes a dragon's heart (and, generally, really powerful gods and elementals tend to start looking like dragons) as little more than a lump of super concentrated essence. Though, personally, I really don't think they should really have hearts period, and their resemblance to biological life forms should be superficial at best. ~Andrew02

I think there are some pretty big assumptions being made here on both sides that are a bit crazy. First off, Kukla is on a scale with Mount Mostat not the Brass Leviathan. Having soaks in the hundreds is not entirely enreasonable. I would still probably go with the Str 80 Sta 90 or so. However, this does not mean he is slow. He is an Elemental not just some large dragon. I would probably go Dex 20 at least. Likely higher. He is high experience high essence engine of destruction. He is wicked fast.

Firstly, all dragons, baring the Elemental Dragons and the Ebon Dragon, are elementals or gods (barring also things like River Dragons, which should have been inferred to have never been a matter of discussion at all given the context). I didn't assert that the Kukla was the same size as the Brass Leviathan nor a being of equal, merely that the Kukla was a creature where one required multiple allies with the power of the Brass Leviathan. It is an elementary thing to deduce from what I have written. It is even easier to infer from the text of the Autochtonians that something on the level of the Brass Leviathan (which is remarkably in line with other early pinnacles of Solar craft such as Vengeful Thunder) is the sort of extraordinary weapon one requires to battle the Kukla. Having soaks in the hundreds is ridiculous. Mount Mostath appears in Creatures of the Wyld, printed 2002, only a year after the Core. It's rather foolish to utilize that particular creature given that later printings establish creatures of that power at a much lower level (in addition, it is really an apples and oranges comparison, given that Mount Mostath is a Behemoth, not an Elemental. Additionally, Redwood Mantis, Arad the Hunter, and Mokrelus, also behemoths, are nowhere near as absurdly powerful, making it even easier to discount Mount Mostath as an aberration and a failure on the part of the writers. Five Days Darkness, the 'son' of the Unconquered Sun, is not so absurdly powerful as Mount Mostath, despite being created by the god that imprisoned the Kukla.). The limitations of older material was recognized explicitly as early as the Sidereals (and, of course, forces one to restat the Brass Leviathan, Five Metal Shrike, and Vengeful Thunder, especially the last in light of Savant & Sorcerer and Book of Bone and Ebony). Having statistics approaching one hundred is ridiculous when the Juggernaut Reborn has a Strength of 25, 29 health levels, total, and a a soak of 25L/45B. Vodak (a Hekatonkhire), in the Mountain Folk section of the Fair Folk (the section written by Neph, who is much maligned here as the antithesis of the sacred Borgstrom), perhaps is a more contemporary example of grossly overstating a monster. However, it's only immeasurable stat is Stamina, it possesses a strength of 30, 200 health levels, and a 30L/60B soak. But, of course, those statistics are explicitly meant as a rough outline, and that Vodak isn't meant to be a being for direct conflict (as the Kukla is). In addition, why don't you look at the statistics of Govisoshi, whose repair and activation is one of the listed methods of defeating the Kukla? I'm not seeing any hundreds in those, I'm afraid. But hey, if you want the Kukla to be so powerful that all the twinks in the land merely shrug and decide it's just plain time to make new characters when you throw the Kukla into things, it's your call. Nothing is stopping you, and it's one of the game's selling points. ~Andrew02

He also has access to all sorts of crazy charms and would likely inherently soak lethal damage with bashing soak, and likely agg with half stamina. And of course, hardened all the way. Ridiculous health levels (likely have to attack parts not whole) He doesn't have a brain, or a heart or anything else discernable as such. Likely has some sort of essence core, but it is equally likely to be guarded by lesser elementals in the Ess 4-5 range. He is really one of the nastiest things in the setting. However, on the other side of things, Exaltion trumped the Primordials in the end, and brought them to their knees. I would have to say that if the Exalted could defeat the Primordials, they could defeat the Kukla. The question is how. That's up to the players. I am a big fan of letting the players do what they want, but they have to come up with a way of doing it. If I was ever to send the Kukla up towards them, they better get really clever really fast or they are stomped. I don't build self destruct buttons on my engines of destruction. - Jaelra

Honestly, the biggest problem here is that some people are proposing statistics based on hype, not any sort of basis in how the mechanical aspects of the game are. Based on the hype, an Essence 6 Solar steam rolls everything. No argument. That is just how Solars are hyped. The mechanics simple don't bear that kind of hype out. Lunars are an especially good example of the hype not playing out mechanically as it 'should.' ~Andrew02

Andrew02 you seem to be really upset about this in all your responses. It's a game. Juego. Diversion. The Kukla seems to me to be more like a force of nature than a being. Its larger than a mountain and more powerful than a locomotive; ((I challenge you all to give me the stats for a Kukla-sized Mountain / Mountain Range, I'm sure the Stamina is in the 100s, and the soak and hardness are probably comparable to those given here, as well as the health levels.)) I think the stats are not terribly unrepresentative. I doubt its intelligence is actually as high as you've stated.. it is probably elemental and terrible in its rage, but primal also and thus less easily defined in terms of 'intelligence.' I'd say Essence 10, because the Deathlord Mask of Winters has that, and I think the Kukla should at least make him step back a few feet. Perhaps a couple dozen fewer health levels. I think battling the Kukla takes Solar and Celestial Circle sorcery, and Terrestrial is automatically countered by its innate properties. The Kukla seems like something made to fight, unbeatable as the Unconquered Sun as far as mortals or lone Exalts are concerned. Sure, a dozen Solars might be able to pool their resources, maybe seriously wound the Kukla, but I doubt they'd do much good under the 6-7 Essence range. (There seems to be a point where no matter how many low-essence things throw themselves at you, you're just immune to them. Say, the point where a thousand Mortals fight an essence 3 Solar, or thirty Dragon-Bloods fight a Deathlord) Another note; the few places I've actually seen the mechanics for Spirit Charms they seem far simpler than Exalted charms. The strengths of most Spirits/Elementals I've seen statted is their ridiculous Arbitrary stats. Being an Earthen being also gives him gross control of his element and apparently he also controls fires, probably based on magma-earth interaction. Meh, just my ramblings on the subject. To counter my own point, however, the Primordials were 20+ in number, and they were slain by only 700 Celestial Exalted and their army of 10,000+ Dragon-Blooded. There's a limit as to how many Celestials Kukla alone could defeat. I doubt it would be in the hundreds, even the dozens. A dozen, (maybe two) high-powered solars should be able to do it. High-powered Solars, conversely, are nonexistant nowadays. - Paincake

Honestly, Paincake, I don't think that Andrew02 is really coming across as upset at all. I have to agree with him on his views of the Kukla. Assuredly, the Kukla is a very powerful being, and most certainly a single Solar wouldn't be able to stand against him (unless, of course, the Solar is some ungodly crazy Essence 10 beast of a being with dozens of custom essence 7-10 charms and a set of legendary-power weapons and armour... and even that would be sketchy). But making the Kukla such a rediculously powerful opponent as has been suggested here is just rediculous in my opinion. Stats in the hundreds is certainly out. Alot of mechanical stuff was changed through the course of creation, and using Mount Mostath as an example is probably a very unreliable idea. Consider that The Mask of Winters appeared in the core, and was stated as having no greater than 6 in any ability or attribute, while the FaFL has many stats over 6, and some above 10. Stats of fourty or fifty wouldn't be impossible, and would infact be very likely. The Kukla IS a many-miles long Elemental Dragon of Earth, afterall. Though I am not so sure about having a massive dex pool. Earth isn't particularily well known for being quick to move. I'd figure 10-15 for Dex should be about good, with sweeping attacks against anything in the path of it's claws.

As an aside, I noticed someone state that high essence charms and powerful artifacts were the way of war for the Exalted against the Primordials. Actually, I'm pretty sure that's entirely wrong. The best thing they would have had was Common Warstriders. The Exalted weren't armed by Autobot, they were armed by the Mountain Folk. Magi-tech didn't really come into it's height until the Solar Deliberative had already established itself. Skyships, advanced warstriders, auxilliary subsystems for those machines, essence weapons... these were all the hallmark of the First Age, not of the Primordial War. The Exalted were pitting themselves against the Primordials with fairly "mundane" weapons, in comparison to what they wielded at the height of their power. Dire Lances, Daiklaives, Goremauls and the like would have been the choice of the time. Martial Arts hadn't even crested into the Sidereal MA range until after the war (or, possibly, nearing the end, considering how long the war raged). Exalted charms were still in their infancy at the time. It's specifically stated in the core that the Solar's experimented with their charms until they developed the most efficient methods to channel their essence, which was done during the First Age, not during the War. They didn't have time to experiment, they didn't have the resources to devote. Everyone was bent towards the war, not towards philosophical study and technological experimentation. How could you study with world-being raining death upon Creation, and armies of lesser souls marching against your forces? Standard weapons certainly are options for the battle with the Kukla. Essence weapons and powerful Warstriders would be an added bonus. Also, the point that Govisoshi is stated as being one route to take to challenge the Kukla. This monster was bound by the Unconquered Sun before the First Age really took off. The weapons created by the Solars later in the Age (IE Govisoshi and the other Thousand-Forge Dragons, The Five Metal Shrike, a Titan Class Sky Fortress, Colossus and Royal Warstriders, Essence Cannons, Implosion Bows, Lightning Ballistae, etc, etc, etc) would certainly lend a hand. The Shrike alone is able to beat the Kukla in a one-shot kill if you can manage to pull off a suprise shot with it's primary weapon.

It's a method of tactics. Say three Dragon-Blooded Brotherhoods with Portetious Comet Deflecting Mode, a pair of Celestial Circles with their own Perfect or Semi-Perfect defenses tied in with Perfect Attacks in combo (or Perfect Attack charms from range with Bows) and likely with some of their group in Noble/Royal/Colossus Warstriders, Govisoshi and the Shrike could be more than Overkill in this occassion. The Exalts in this scenario don't even have to be all that powerful. Essence 4 or 5 should be more than enough to handle the situation. If you're playing the release of the Kukla in the Locust Wars series, I certainly hope your PC's are at least Essence 4. The Kukla is far from the nigh-invincible beast that some people on this page have made it out to be. I've killed Mostath in an RP before. The Kukla is just another opponent... a very, very Epic opponent. SmileyTPB

So, Huh...

Am I the only one here who realizes that if the Celestials could band together and take out Primordials, there is absolutely no reason they could not take out the Kukla? Sure, it might have absurd stats, but you know what? That's why Exalted have Perfect Attacks and Perfect Defenses. Get a full circle of Solars to climb on the damn thing, perfect defense and overdrive perfect attack it until it's out of motes to perfect defend with, and then kill it. Alternatively get inside it and kill it from the inside. And then there's the Sword of Creation, which probably could take it out or at least make a sizeable dent in its armor for people to exploit.

Really, you guys are all "OMG IT'S THE KUKLA, IT'S INVINCIBLE" but you're forgetting that this is Exalted. Even the Unconquered Sun has stats and is completely defeatable if you do it right, and in fact, he has almost been bested by ONE Raksha. So I don't find the need to say the Kukla is "invincible" so much as "this is going to take the same level of effort as it took to beat the Primordials back in the First Age".

TL;DR: Ridiculous stats don't matter when you have Perfect-effect Charms and the benefit of your Essence making you do a set minimum amount of damage regardless of soak (and if you're taking on the Kukla that's probably going to be 10 damage minimum).