Difference between revisions of "SolarSurvival/FourWillowsWeeping"

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Charms

Invulnerable Spirit Epiphany

Cost: None

Duration: Permanent

Type: Reflexive

Min. Survival: 1+

Min. Essence: 1

Prerequisite Charms: None

In willowsexalted, armour is as much an aesthetic choice as helmets are. However, soak is a valuable mechanical effect! Purchasing this Charm increases the character's soak. This Charm can be learned multiple times; each additional instance of the Charm increases its Survival minimum by 1 above the previous.

The character may choose one of two effects each time she learns the charm:

Invulnerable Spirit Epiphany (internal) enhances the character's resilience. The character doubles her Stamina for the purposes of calculating soak, and can soak aggravated damage with her lethal soak. Subsequent purchases of this Charm increase in efficiency exponentially; if a character buys it twice, her Stamina is quadrupled; for three purchases it is octupled. This is a specific contravention of the usual rules for stacking multipliers.

Invulnerable Spirit Epiphany (external) enhances the character's ability to use armour. Each time she learns this Charm, she gains a +7B / +4L / +2H bonus to the effects of armour she wears. This bonus is dependent on the masterful use of armour; unarmoured characters are unable to take advantage of it. This effect is incompatible with artifact armour.

Note: This is in Survival for ex2 compatibility; it doesn't belong in Resistance because it's not an Ability no more, and doesn't belong in Endurance 'cause that's where OBT is. Assume suitably altered versions for other splats.

Comments

If you're interested in comments, I've got to say that this is a lot powerful. In particular, what happens when you've got a Stamina 5 character taking this four times at character creation? Well, the first one doubled his stamina, the second quadded it, the third octed it, and the fourth multiplied it by, oh, 16. That's an effective Stamina of 80, for an 80B, 40L, 40A soak, with no motes committed, every second, of every day. Even just one of these is a lot, as it lets you soak Agg pretty easily, and that same character, with even one of these, would have 10B, 5L, 5A soak. That 5A is crucial, as most attacks that do Agg are very low-powered, and thus you'll be able to soak it down to the minimum almost certainly.

I'd re-stat this charm so that it requires a minimum of Ess 3 to pick up the first one, Ess 4 to pick up the second, et cetera. That way it really is possible for an Essence 6 character to have that kind of 80B, 40L, 40A soak, but you can't do it so easily at start. I'd also suggest a commitment cost of 2 to 3 motes for each one you'd like activated, simply to keep it saner.

As for the internal version, it's not nearly as bad, although I note that it's currently superior to the Glorious Solar Plate charm, as it requires no commit, is stackable (on purpose), provides better soak (as long as you're wearing a Buff Jacket or better) and provides additional health levels. I'd say tone it down as well, and allow it to stack with artifact armors. Keep the Essence 3 as well, as these kind of long-lasting additive effects are really game-altering.

Finally, I note that while you claim that "Resistance ... not an Ability no more", that's not quite true. Resistance and Endurance are being folded together, into one ability. Thus, with Resistance's and Endurance's tendency to include soak and stamina boosters and armor enhancers, I'd say that's exactly where it belongs. That's why they're folding them together - to make a perfect home for charms like this. I'm not saying it can't be in Survival - in my opinion, any effect can be in any ability, as long as you color text it up nicely. In my opinion, this doesn't really have that much color text at all, other than noting that "In my game, I want people to be able to get along without armor" ... 'so I made this cool charm that I put in Survival because that's what my favorite character has a lot of'. Just suggestions as always, feel free to ignore. -- GregLink

Please use paragraphs! I edited your comments for you. - willows

As for your comments:

1. Your ability to do math that I did before posting this Charm reaffirms my faith in the educational system. I'm also glad that you agree, investing 9 dots and 4 Charms in a singular effect is well worth rewarding!
2. Hm. This seems to be in contradiction of your earlier comments. Are you suggesting that this Charm is a poor soak counterpart to Ox-Body Technique?
3. You are reading incorrectly, no health levels are provided.

- willows

perhaps, for those of us that havn't got all of the ex2 terms stuck in our heads yet, just what +2H actually -means- then? ^_^
-- Darloth hopefully clearing up some of that confusion, since H could easily mean anything, but health levels does come to mind...

Uh, a soak-related term, obviously: Hardness. - willows

It's -not- obvious though. Perhaps it should be, but you've gotta assume dumb... people sometimes miss the simplest of things. It makes sense NOW, but beforehand, it never occurred to me. Neither did health levels, but still. From these teeny little assumptions lead massive arguments about how charmtexts are interpreted.
-- Darloth

Aside from the mysterious H which we both obviously just weren't thinking for... I believe the point GregLink was trying to make is that although 9 dots and 4 charms in a singular effect is well worth rewarding... this is above and beyond a reward, and more into the every-game-breaking level of ability. For 5 dots in melee and 4 charms, I can get HGD... yeah, sure, that allows me to ignore any attack (can we not go into whether it's properly placed? It -is- canon, for the time being anyway, and I think we've both had this discussion before... I can use another example if necessary) but it is still a charm use, and costs essence. I've still spent the slots... they (the prereq charms) can of course do other things, but there's always the charm-use and essence restrictions.

With your charm, someone can take those dots and 4 charmslots... and never have to worry about being hit with an instant-kill megacombo ever again. They can use all their essence and charms towards attack, and even if someone unloads their entire willpower pool into 5 40agg damage perfect attacks... they take ping every time. even with power-combat essence-ping, such an attack is going to cost the attacker everything they have, yet someone with ONLY 4 charms and 9 dots can make it seem as if the (probably closer to 10 charms and 10 dots) attack is identical to a couple of passable rolls from mundane strikes.
-- Darloth

Are such attacks available? Soak's utility is limited because of ping and because it is actually economical for opponents who can't beat soak to ignore it, which allows them to move into other tactics without wasting energy on generating damage. - willows

Yes, they are. Combo Dance of the Howling Magma Sprites with Caress of 1000 Hells and Azure Abacus Meditation, throwing on the damage doubler for extra whammy. You now have multiple, undodgable, unparriable, immaterial, perfect, aggravated attacks. I'm fairly sure you can manage something -almost- as nasty using pure archery, as well. In addition, the hardness granted if you're wearing armour is hardly a minor benefit... True, it doesn't apply to the natural version, which still allows for ping-flurry... If you don't have a persistant defense or some -other- soak charm that grants hardness.
-- Darloth

Woo, I singlehandedly nerfed Stupid I-Don't-Remember-Its-Name Style! Bonus! - willows

No you didn't, Caress of 1000 hells is a varies duration charm and can't be comboed. However, you have managed to nerf every single soak charm ever produced. - TheHoverpope

So you're saying that Darloth's combo is ill-formed? Tragedy. I'm not sure how recognising that soak charms are rather weak constitutes as nerfing them; did "nerf" acquire a new and surprising meaning when I was not watching? - willows

I'll have to check that later, but, anyway, you can take it out and it only does lethal damage. Also, the traditional Solar Spike + Dazzling Flare + Fiery Arrow + AWD + anything else in the solar archery tree is nearly as effective... there's a couple of abyssal varients in melee... There are LOTS of massive-damage-many-times comboes, honest. My particular choice of combo is non-relevant to the discussion.
-- Darloth

Soak charms aren't weak. Pre PC, they stop attacks dead; and post, well, they still do. Iron Skin Concentration is one of the best charms going, and it is vastly inferior to this. And anyways, if I build an essence one permanent melee charm that makes attacks perfect or doubles damage or makes rate unlimited or some such, it doesn't mean that extant melee charms are rather weak - it means that I have built a bad charm. The meaning of nerf I use is "To make totally and utterly useless instantly by putting something orders of magnitude better on the field." - TheHoverpope

Well, it basicly a amounts to a Permanant version of Iron Skin Concentration(all attacks reduced to ping). For 4 charms. It's not unbeatable, (any damage succ buyer is a problem), but...it's quite good. I probably would incease the Essence requirement by one each time, but start from 1, so you get the 80B around Essence 4, which doesn't seem all THAT bad. It's mostly a problem at lower Ess levels where pings are low. It does beat the heck out of ox-body though in the short run.

What does armor/artifact armor do in your game, as it seems odd that you get MUCH better soak unarmored(ok, this is true in classic Exalted also, but it requires some work and synergistic MA styles, motes and powerup). If armor is, well cosmetic, why not just make both versions do the same thing, possible with the armored version giving a little hardness(to compenstate for the fact that armor is a [i]thing[/i] that can be lost/damaged, etc. -FlowsLikeBits

There's the flipside, I wouldn't let people buy artifact armours with stats in a game including this charm; the armour would only provide ancillary effects (as Crimson Armour's out-of-fate thing) and the "armoured" state that allows the Charm's soak bonus to apply. Basically the idea is that you don't have to dress like a tin can to soak things; it splits the aesthetic decision of armour off from the mechanical choice of soak. - willows

Interesting idea. Well, this looks like it would prevent people from wearing armor. As the armor doesn't give soak, you buy it with Exaternal version, I'm assuming. The questions are

1) Why is the external version not compatibly with artifact armor? This means artifact armor would effectivly prevent you from having soak. If all the armor is doing is providng some bonus effects, why prevent your charm soak from working?

2) Why is the armored variant much less effective? (+4L per charm pick is pretty weak, after 4 picks your looking at 16L vs 40L). Especially if armor doesn't provide soak. I can't see why anyone would choose to wear armor, other than a strong commitment to asethetics.

-FlowsLikeBits, [i]who edited his prev comments to make more sense[/i]

Not willows, but ... hardness. The first one is just asking for someone to ping you into the next life. The additive nature of the hardness granted here (Along with charms like Iron Kettle Body or Sorcery spells which grant a base hardness) you stand a reasonable chance of taking no damage at all. This is, IMO, very thematic. To hurt the guy in armor, ytou must strike with a blow hard enough to pierce the armor, in one sudden strike. While to the master of Naked Combat, who can stop any blo0w with his ki, you have to whittle him down, as you weaken him with small cuts and gashes. Very wuxia, very cool, and a pretty fair mechanical tradeoff. - Scrollreader

Scroll's read is pretty much on the dot here; 1 is an accident with results I like (you cannot choose artifact armour and hardness at the same time; artifact armour, then, becomes the defence of the weak, who don't expect that hardness will benefit them); 2 is partly balanced by hardness, and partly me saying that I disprefer that aesthetic choice. - willows

So wait - your argument for these rules is that armour should be an aesthetic choice, which is fine. I have no problem with that style. But if it is just an aesthetic choice, why would you penalize people for making that choice? Are you going to apply penalties to characters with short hair, too? It seems silly to combine the argument against armour as a game mechanic with charms that penalize armour as a game mechanic. - TheHoverpope

But you're completely ignoring the fact that armour is there. It does offer protection, even if selected as a purely aesthetic choice, it's still armour, unless you're going to tell me that in willowsexalted, all armour is made of paper too. - Trithne

Congratulations! You've missed the point. - David.

Willows exalted is much like, say, Star Wars. All the armor in the world is but little help, if you're an extra (just ask stormtroopers). And if you rock out, then this set of charms determines how hard you rock out. THe cooler you are, the more protection your armor provides (and the more you likely need it). Willows exalted is not a game 'with a gritty combat engine, and real world" as GCG likes to put it. Willows Exalted could care less about mortals, or anything resembling gritty at all. Am I right, Willows? - Scrollreader

Under those circumstances, then I understand completely. It doesn't mean I agree, but I don't have to. - Trithne, who turned missing the point into a hobby once ^_^.

Yeah, that's basically it; the reason soak is in charms is that it means you have to be cool to have it at all. - willows

I really don't like this, but it is your game. It doesn't matter if this stacks with armour or not... soak is really powerful. It's really powerful because it always works, and you don't need to take actions to use it, and it applies to almost everything (and also makes you completely immune to environmental damage, incidentally). With just one purchase of this, you're at B 10 / L 5 / A 5. Which is good. B 20 / L 10 / A 10 is incredible. B 40 / L 20 / A 20 is categorically superior to just about any possible three-Charm set you could name me. Hell, if I was minmaxing, I'd take that as a 5 mote, 1 Willpower scene-length if it was only three Charms deep, because that would be a great decision to make. Permanency just further breaks it. Think about it - an Essence 3 Solar can cheerfully fall 100 feet onto spikes and stand up, brush himself off, and stroll away, without spending Essence. He can lie back in an acid bath and sigh contentedly, and he can chuckle at hits from grand daiklaves. At Essence 4, it's even worse - 40L soak! If he gets attacked by a nasty combo, say Joe Solar used a scene-length Charm to add +10 dice to his Melee, and doubles his successes for damage, and then doubles his pre-soak damage, and rolls 8 successes with a Grand Daiklave (hitting a pre-soak damage of about 44L), he's still going to be stuck at an Essence ping. Basically, this Charm makes it pointless to buy damage-boosting Charms, because there is no longer a reason to have more damage dice than your Essence, especially at Essence 4+. It also requires a complete overhaul of the weapons system, because high damage is no longer equal to speed, accuracy, or rate, and a short daiklave is a categorically superior weapon to a grand daiklave against this almost certainly extremely common Charm. Is that okay for you? - FrivYeti

Oh, before I forget - playing without armour means that highly skilled heroic mortals can be killed by a light breeze. Is that really cool? - FrivYeti

Well the falling rules are wacked anyway(oddly enough, it's realy dangerous). This oddly enough makes artifact armor the worst thing you could wear. I suppose it only really affect Abyssals, who I'd play as Death-people-in-really-rigid-soulsteel-clothing-thats-is-not-armor-in-anyway-nohow, rather than Deathknights. For weapon mods, you could have really big weapons increase ping, say +3 for a Grand Daiklave, and go down from there. -FlowsLikeBits

I'm reasonably certain that if "increasing ping" is what this Charm leads to as a logical result, then it's not really a good Charm. - Hapushet, who never expected anyone to suggest increasing ping for any reason

I dunno why you'd want to alter the remainder of the system in a way that leads it farther from the desired effect... - willows

Because your Charm, as written, shatters the system? Completely? Let me break it down for you. Stop me if you see a logic hole.

1. At Survival 4, Essence 1 (easily obtainable through character creation), you can have a character with 40L soak. This can reach 80L easily at Survival 5 (Whee, two bonus points).
2a. No straight damage-enhancing Charms can beat this. Ever.
3a. There is no reason to take damage-enhancing Charms.
2b. No weapon damage stats can beat this. Ever.
3b. There is no reason to take high-damage weapons.
2c. No amount of Strength can beat this. Ever.
3c. THere is no reason to take Strength above 2 for combat purposes.

Conclusion: If Strength, damage-enhancing Charms, and high-damage weapons no longer matter, what does? Accuracy. The more hits you land against this guy, the better. High-accuracy, high-rate weapons will ALWAYS, ALWAYS beat anything large. Dexterity becomes even more of a trump card. Anything that boosts to-hit is good, anything that boosts damage is completely pointless and not worth having. Entire Charm trees are no longer useful. Artifact ratings are no longer right (3 pts for a Grand Daiklave? Why? It's the worst artifact weapon in the book!). EVERYTHING has to be revised if you play with this Charm.

And to shortcut any 'not everyone has this Charm' argument, can you give me a single good reason for someone not to take this Charm? There's an old saying: "If you can't think why anyone wouldn't use this, it's too strong." - FrivYeti

Iron Skin concentration also does all this. But to a lesser degree. So does chain swathing. Or Water Dragon Form. If they don't horribly change the game then how does this? Scrollreader You can't claim problems of kind, when what you want to try to protest is degree

Actually, I'm primarily contesting kind. The 'kind' of a permanent Charm, which changes everything. Water Dragon is exceptionally expensive, heavy armour requires major commitment (and can't come close to this level). Only ISC comes close, and it takes not only more motes than a parry or dodge Charm does but your Charm use for the turn (unless you're comboing, in which case wearing down your Willpower will probably work better than pinging you anyway). This Charm does none of these things. As a permanent effect it has a permanent effect on gameplay. - FrivYeti

Okay, you know what?

Just stop.

I know that this Charm is ludicrous! I obviously underestimated the number of people who would take it for a joke. Seriously! Had no idea.

The point it's trying to express is, no matter how great you make soak, it's still an inferior defence. Its inferiority biases serious attackers to the attack-spam style. I don't think I ever pretended this Charm was a good charm; it just happens to throw a certain quality of the system into sharp relief by virtue of its sheer quantity. So, now that we all know that minimum damage makes high Strength un-rewarding, let's all get some iced tea and a chill pill. - willows

Some quotes:

"I'm also glad that you agree, investing 9 dots and 4 Charms in a singular effect is well worth rewarding!"
"Basically the idea is that you don't have to dress like a tin can to soak things; it splits the aesthetic decision of armour off from the mechanical choice of soak."
"Yeah, that's basically it; the reason soak is in charms is that it means you have to be cool to have it at all."
"I dunno why you'd want to alter the remainder of the system in a way that leads it farther from the desired effect..."

Yeah, I can see where you weren't defending this Charm at all. It doesn't throw anything into sharp relief. It doesn't display a fundamental problem with the rules. I could write a Charm like this for absolutely any rules set in the game, that would have the same breaking effect.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and believe you when you say that this wasn't meant to be a serious Charm. In that case, saying so at the beginning of a Charm is an excellent way for people not to take it seriously. Strenuously arguing in favour of the Charm's retention in order to troll is not. - FrivYeti

You realise that you're not supposed to actually feed the trolls, you know. I see that you read my statements as implying that I believe the workings of soak are "a fundamental problem with the rules." This isn't so! I also find your perception of strenuous defence to be a bit suspect. I'd not be indulging in open ad hominem attacks if I were strongly interested in designing such a Charm for real, well-balanced use in a game where it replaces the purchase of armour.

On that subject, though, I think I'm in agreement with the posters who suggest a non-exponentially increasing natural soak bonus, and an escalating Essence requirement! That would slow the escalation of soak down to respectable but not overpowering levels until well after the point that attack-spam becomes necessary for other reasons. - willows

*nods* Yeah, those would probably be great rules. :) Didn't Nephipal suggest a permanent Resistance Charm that increased bashing and lethal soak by your Essence? I have some vague memory of such a Charm being suggested in his permanent Charm list. - FrivYeti

I durno. Don't like Neph very much. - willows