Discussions/AntediluvianDeathlords

Seriously, you ever wondered if Deathlord == Antediluvian? I mean... 13, 13? - Arafelis

That's a pretty popular unfounded theory. Just because there are 13 known instances of each doesn't mean that they're supposed to be connected in any way. There are 13 Tribes in Werewolf (pre-Revised, anyway) and 13 Guilds in Wraith, but you don't see people drawing parallels with them. Heck, Wraith has Deathlords in it, but nobody claims that they're the same thing. On top of that, if the Deathlords are the Antediluvians, that means that the entirety of the Vampire mythos is a massive red herring - no Caine, no Second Generation, Lilith doesn't fit right, how the hell did several of them commit and/or be victims of diablerie, Salubri wasn't evil, why would the other vamps care about infernalist Baali since they worship something at least as nasty... the list goes on. If the Exalted Deathlords have a parallel in the modern oWoD, they're the Onceborn from Wraith - absurdly powerful Spectres who have become so powerful and evil that most classify them as just another kind of Primordial themselves. -Everyl Apologizes for ranting about stupid fanboyish pet peeve.

I just assumed it was a silly joke. At least you know the truth -- the Deathlords are really the founders of the 13 Tribes! *ducks* ~ WaiyaddoNoDan

What, you want me to refute all of that? I *can*; it has to do with how the Deathlords, Fate, and Abyssal Exalts interact when the Weaver goes mad, resulting in the first few instances of diablarie and distorted retellings. However, keep in mind that even the vampires themselves don't completely agree on the story, and WW loves to keep some details inaccurate. And what, next I suppose you'll want me to explain how Demon exists at all, much less Lucifer's background, what with no single Creator and so on and so forth- but really? The past is just as mutable as the future. Do you remember everything in your life with perfect detail? Who's to say there aren't multiple possible pasts just as there are multiple possible futures? Assuming, of course, there ARE multiple possible futures... - Arafelis knows what the 10th sphere was to have been, and idly wonders what would happen if the 14th Deathlord- He Who Is Not His Brother's Keeper- ate the others.

Meh. I don't care about the issue enough to seriously debate it, since it's pretty much all just pet theories, anyway. Nonetheless, that won't stop me from rattling off my opinions.  :-p My pet theory is that Caine is an Abyssal who devised a way to imbue mortals with a shadow-copy of his Essence - not quite as much power as him, but still quite a bit - and a side-effect of that gave them the ability to imbue other mortals similarly. As for the Deathlords, I find it to be easiest to assume that the ancient, unbelievably powerful, life-hating ghosts-that-used-to-be-mortals of Exalted are the same as the ancient, unbelievably powerful, life-hating ghosts-that-used-to-be-mortals of Wraith. It just seems simpler than applying bucketloads of handwavium to turn them into Antediluvians. And finally, I have no opinion on Demon - it's the only oWoD splat I'm not familiar with, since the only resource directly related to it that I've read is Time of Judgment. From what little I've seen, it looks like demons map fairly well between the settings - the once-divine losers of a heavely war, sealed away from humanity. As for Lucifer... I dunno, but I bet a paranoid enough conspiracy theorist could find a way to make him the Emissary. -Everyl

Emissary? I could find a way to make him Dace. Hell, Harmonious Jade. (Actually, the easiest being to make into Lucifer is Lillith, but that's too obvious) The problem with making Demons the Yozis is that a lot of the Demons actually like humanity. Then again, even the Fair Folk are moderately benevolent in WoD. Pansies. - Arafelis shapes reality to his whims.

Eh. I just said about Lucifer and the Emissary because the Emissary smacked Jacint (sp?) around effortlessly, much the way Lucifer is more badass than any of the Demons on the loose in Demon, and they both seem very Creation/Earth oriented for some reason. *shrugs* Spotted a (probably) random parallel, is all. And not all Exalted demons hate humanity by default, either - humanity was just a tool used by the Celestines in their betrayal. They were created to be self-reproducing worship-generators, and they still do that job just fine, even if those darned gods did figure out how to turn a tiny fraction of them into living weapons. With true Exalts long since gone from the world, they don't have any real reason to hate humanity. Also, in your post summary, you implied that you had something to say about "Wraiths can't be Deathlords" or something, but you didn't mention it in the actual post. -Everyl

Ok, rather, "Some Demons like humanity the way that the first age Solars liked Humanity." Which is an interesting idea, given that the Yozis just stole 50 of 'em... - Arafelis

Pardon me if I'm being dense, but how does "Deathlord names" clarify anything you've said whatsoever? -Everyl

It doesn't. What's the significance of the term? - Arafelis suggests that words, like history, are given significance by the desires of their reader at least as much as the intent of their author.

You've all got it wrong. The World of Darkness began when the Fair Folk conqueored creation, destroyed everything, and then got bored. So they invented a game loosely based on the world they had just obliterated...^_^ -- Xarak

Sigh. I was just trying to figure out what the heck was up with your repeated use of non-sequitor update summaries. I guess you're just trying to be confusing, though, since you refuse to clarify. I guess I'd better just drop the topic now, since it's kind of irrelevant to the page it's being posted on, anyway. -Everyl

Demon is easy. The Creator is the collected Primordials. The Rebellion of the Angels is when the UCS led the gods in rebellion. Obviously, they won for a while. After the Ebon Dragon broke out, he condemned the rebelllious gods to his very own newly designed hell. He then blew up the world and remade it as the WoD. Then he got bored and left to make Greyhawk. Or maybe forgotten realms. Then the UCS - I mean Lucifer - disappeared and the banished gods got free. - DooM_GazE

I'd thought of the gods/Primordials thing before, but I figured it would be more interesting if the Demons were actually the Yozis- during whatever it was that ended The Age of Sorrows, Malfeas just stopped working, period (thus turning Hell into a sensory deprivation tank). The Yozis grew increasingly nuts during their imprisonment and were modified by the shifting paradigms of the mortal world, even as the remnants of the gods were absorbed into humanity (which is why reality is subjective to mortals in WoD rather than subjective to divinities). Lucifer is actually something else; just like a Yozi is, or at least was, a metasoul, good ol' Lu is what happens when the Celestial Shards all get rolled into one. The demons who were summoned out early 'remembered' best what they were, which is why they were both more powerful and utterly malevolent. Reality breaking down (again) with the death-throes of the Weaver is what broke open Hell, but the Yozi souls, detached and mutilated, couldn't exist on their own in Creation and had to find some sort of new being to bond with. Humans (which, as stated, contain the elements that used to be divinities in Sorrows) made perfect hosts, even if they had to be a little hollowed out first. $.02 &Arafelis

As I see it, the best way to deal with Demon is the way everyone did in Revised WoD: Ignore it. It was painfully bad, ridiculous, convoluted and just an excuse for for some folks at WW to demonize western religion. It didn't mesh really at all with the rest of the WoD anyway. But that's just me being opinionated and pushy. - ErykTheRed

The Demon book claims that the angels who created this world on behalf of God were given two orders roughly to the effect of: 1. Love mankind as you do God 2. Do not reveal yourselves to them. When they were finished they found Adam and Eve were content to run around dumb and naked in a state of ignorant bliss, living a life of base hedonism. This wouldn’t be so bad if the angelic astrologers didn’t see something awful destined for all Creation on the horizon (probably, ironically, their own betrayal), and thought dumb mankind would be hopeless to stop it. They tried everything to get Adam and Eve to become innovative, creating fires with lightning, dropping schematics from the sky, but nothing worked. Finally a group of angels led by Lucifer revealed themselves to mankind, deciding that their love of mankind overrode their orders from God. They gave humanity First Age Technology and also beat off the first onslaught by the other angels led by Michael. They were worshipped as gods. The Great Curse makes sense in the context of Demon… the history details after the Angels and demons duke it out for a while God finally takes the gloves off and touches Creation to punish the Fallen Angels, to force them to watch what they betrayed him to protect come to ruin. The single poke of his ultimately powerful creative hand creates entropy in the world and ruins the perfect workings of things. I like to think the Well of the Void is where his finger landed. Then he turned his back on the rebels. They reacted a multitude of ways. Some still wanted to guide humanity, others were so filled with self-loathing hate they wanted to bring down Creation and put humanity to the sword. Loyalist Angels here and there gathered humans to them as well, to lead them against the fallen.

Thus I’ve always thought that the UCS was Lucifer, and the various powers of exalted were gods angels, either the Rebels, the loyalists, or the twisted mad ones.

Now as far as Vampire goes… I’m pretty sure Nexus/Hollow is Enoch and the Council of Entities are the Antediluvians (or the Second Gen). In a literal sense, like Nod, it is east of Eden (the Blessed Isle).Vampires never bestrode the world like a colossus. They were confined to the First City, where they ruled absolutely. Their seeming absolute power in the modern age was only relative… there was no Circle of elder Solars to slap Ravnos around when he woke up… just the Second Age’s leavings and pitiful reimaginings of first age technology. I assume the rotting disease “wasting” disease below Hollow/Nexus is a reference not to a biological plague, but the tolls of Vampirism. It would be rather easy to hide in a city of its size. Caine might then be the Emissary or he might have already booked it. Further “proof”: Lilith was the one who taught him disciplines… and at the very least Ambombwe resembles Lunar powers. - OurHero

Let me see if I can recall the conversion-schema I used.. The Mythycal 14th deathlird returns from the depth of the labyrinth, forging the thirteen deathlords by force into one: He teaches them a trick by which they infuse themselves int otheir Abyssal WArriors, creating an undead, immortal essence 10 being, which can spread like a plague: what we would call a vampire, and allowing the pure forces of the malfeans to attack creation. THis, coupled with the plots of the Ebon Dragon and the Fair folk, almost destroys creation: Gaia merges with it, as a support matrix, Thus Creation becomes synonymous with Gaia, and the protective net of her Skin the Gauntlet and the Shroud. Celestial shards can no longer bond correctly, because they are blocked by this barrier. LUnar shards are imbued int oa bloodline, energising it, creating our shifter breeds: THink of al lthe shards as a power bank, and anyone of lunar decent can potentially 'plug in' to that power source to become a shifter. Wraiths are still wraiths, the deathloords in it just opportunistic ghosts who take the same moniker as the Malfean servants for the awe they invoke: the onceborn and the neverborn.. don't change. Certain Yozi's take a last-ditch escape option when the Ebon-dragon is apparently foiled: Suicide, changing their names into thouisands of shards, and embedding those shards in the reincarnation cycle - presumably they still have superuser access to creation. ;) in WoD, these Primordials-in-potential are called 'Avatars'. Thus we have mages - mortals wh ohave activated their primordial starter kit. Sidereals.. well, Im' thinking a group ritual to combat /something/, ending up with their exalt-shards becoming similar to the primordial shards - the ahl-i-batini. Just a spin-off theory. Changelings? Easy. Just The degenerate remains of the fair-folk in creation, forced into soul-stealing. truly degenerate. Hunter.. *grin* well, recall that they appeated when huge holes the size of a subcontinent were torn in the shroud and the Gauntlet: creating, for the first time, consditions similar to the second age. Solar shards escape, infuse themselves in people.. and get filled with bugs. Lots and lots of bugs, as they are no longer compatible with this universe. certain Yozi join with primordia lforces t ochange their names and escape prison: Malfeas joins with the primordial force of dissolution, becoming part of the Wyrm: She who lives in Her Name, perhaps, with the force of definition - the Weaver.. Dragon-blooded are cursed by their creators, become the Kuei-jin. The demons.. *grin* 'The Geasa included the stars and the moons, The turnings of the Seasons and all things divine' You recall the things in the Corners - the shards of Yozi essence left behind by their /presence/. THeir Will, on the other hand.. well. Their souls are so powerful as t ohave souls themselves, which can yet further beget progeny: What can their pure, harnessed Will do? What forms might it take, what might it Create to enforce It's doctrines? What Buffers might be needed, to let pure unfettered Primordial Will manipulate creation? And what sort of effect might Yozi-shards have upon their own beliefs? :) - Molikai

Holy. Crap. - Seriously, when I saw this topic, (and read all but your post Molikai,) I was going to glare at people at tell you all that as much as these jerks at WW want you to think there's some insane connection between Exalted and WoD, and as nerdy as we all are debating it, c'mon.. its.. ridiculous.. why bother trying? Then you go and make a plausible argument, and its interesting and I don't hate it like I hate most people's ideas for a plausible conversion. I.. I think I love you, Molikai. Paincake