Revision as of 00:36, 6 April 2010

Four Ranks of Artifice Old Comments

Heru
Heru/FourRanksOfArtifice

All the old comments are now in this page because they were getting to long.

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This is not finished. If anybody has ideas that could make this more complete do not hestitate to add things. I do ask that nothing be fundamentally altered or changed without my notification, but beyond that feel free. :) - Heru

Interesting concept... but how does this affect the Artifact Background? Does it cost me the same amount to buy a 5-dot Terrestrial artifact as it does to buy a 5-dot Solar artifact? Can Dragon-Blooded start with First Age Solar artifacts? Etc. - IanPrice

• Thats a good question and I'm glad that you posted it. I'm going to think about it for a little while then post the addition. If you have some ideas and suggesstions please post them, I'd love to here them. -Heru
  • I am not sure if the costs make sense and would like others to look over them, Thanks. -Heru

It is of note that the Solar Circle Sorcery charm is accessible at character creation, because it's a charm and could have stayed with the Shard through Lytek's cleaning. If you can get Essence 5 and Occult 5 both at creation, that is. Now, as for your costs, they could be reasonable, but make sure that you are giving somebody a thing which is worth what's paid for it.

• By your point values, do you mean per dot? As in, it costs 1 BP per dot for Terrestrial Artifacts rated 1-3, etc?
  • If this is the case, a level 5 Solar Artifact (for the sake of arguement) would cost 27 BP.
  • This effectively invalidates the Legendary Artifact Merit
• If you mean that this is the total cost for each artifact in the dot range mentioned, that means you've made Artifacts in general cheaper, but placed restrictions on which ones people could take.
  • This would make it so ridiculously affordable that most Exalts will have at least one Terrestrial artifact.
  • The positive effect on more powerful artifacts is that you will have the excuse to make them the subject of adventures rather than simply something to spend points on.
  • The negative effect is that you will have to re-stat most personal artifacts, at least assigning different levels to them, and possibly changing around stats to make the "legendary" things live up to their status.

Also, as a quick comparison: For 7 BP, I could buy any normal Background at 5 dots. I could buy another dot of Essence. For 6 BP, I could buy 3 dots of a non-favored ability. For 5 BP I could get 5 dots of favored abilities, or a non-favored Charm. For 4 BP, I could get a favored Charm. These are improvements which compete strongly with your expensive (or simply prohibited) artifacts for my caring. It's quite possible, if you make the powerful artifacts too hard to get, that instead of questing for them, players will stop caring about them. But if you're going to effectively eliminate the superpowerful artifacts from your game, why bother with extensive rules write-ups? - IanPrice, offering more food for thought.

Hmm, that is food for thought, food that I appreciate. :) But lets see

• Yeah, the sorcery charm is available but no spells are. But the real question is where is a player going to get a Solar Rank Artifact. Even the 1st Level of that Rank is a very powerful thing. Remember, it is something that only the Solars can create and thus are very rare and very powerful and very unique. Now, I could see allowing one Solar Rank Artifact for a player, this could be something that the Unconquered Sun gave to the player directly. It would be a powerful item.
• With that in mind, the costs for Terrestrial Rank Artifacts are the exact same cost as they are now. Whenever I read about an artifact in an Exalted book the first think I look to is whether or not its built by the Terrestrials. If it is, then its Terrestrial Rank, if its not than its Celestial unless its so advanced.
• I forgot about the Legendary Artifact merit. I like that merit and do not want to ban it. I will add a footnote that this is the only way a player can get a Solar Rank Artifact at character Creation.
• The way I gathered the costs was to look in the Core Rulebook. The 1 point for levels 1, 2 and 3 were from the Bonus Point chart. The 2 points for levels 4 and five came from the same chart. To get the numbers for the other two Ranks I just added one point, using the same fomula of 1-3, 4-5.
• Before I update the rules above I'm going to post the ideas here. Thus, my question is would it be balanced to make the costs as listed below:
  • Terrestrial Ranks Artifacts cost one point per dot. So its one-one, two-two, three-three, four-four, five-five. With the same concept that it costs Bonus points rather than background points to buy Levels 4 and 5.
  • Celestial Rank Artifacts cost 5+ 1 per level. So Level 1 is 6, Level 2 is 7, Level 3 is 8, Level 4 is 9, Level 5 is 10. A player may bye levels 1, 2 and 3 without much explanation, but 4 and 5 need a good background reason. What is it that the character has his hands on the Celestial artifact.
  • Solar Rank Artifacts cost 10+ 1 per level. So Level 1 is 11, Level 2 is 12, Level 3 is 13, Level 4 is 14, Level 5 is 15. To get Solar Rank Artifacts at character creation a character must bye the Legendary Artifact Merit for 10 points. Then they may spend another +1 for each level in the Solar Artifact. So it costs the same as the above rules, but through this method it becomes oped for them. -Heru

WhaT you should ask yourself is "where do the Alchemicals and Mountain Folk fit into this+" On one hand they are less powerful then solars, even then the other Celestials. On the other hand, they are both Chosen of Autochton in one way or the other. The mountain folk als built many of the weapons used in the Primo Wars, and given thw wonder The Enlightendned was hited to be capale of, they seemed to have been able to rival, inf not somtimes exceed the solars Prior to the Great Geas. Also, They buy craft cheaper then anyone else, at the cost of current rating.

I am sory if I sound all whiney. It is a combination of havin nearly edetic recall, much knowledge of X1, anad an obsession with details. Aslo, I think the conection to the Primal Inventor should mean somthing. -Azurelight

Ps.Also, Drop by my page and check my charms and spells, you might like them.

As always, thanks. I love comments cause they are thought provoking. I'm just going to begin commenting.

• Alchemicals are Celestial Rank. I feel that is a fine posistion for them. Nothing has actually shown them to be that advanced or creative or capable. I might say that those who become City Fathers gain access to Solar Rank due to their deeper connection to the Maker, but that would be it.
• Mountain Folk are wierd. They are naturally Solar Rank, but due to the Great Geas they have been pushed back to Celestial Exalted. This is one of the main reasons that Authocthon was so pissed off, he was forced to limit them.
• What is you opinion on the cost of the artifacts, do you think that they are too expensive, too cheap or just right.
• You are not being whiney. I like the comments you are making, they are fun to read and enjoyable to respond to. Just so you know, having edetic recall sounds so cool, I wish I had that. :) Also, I am glad that you are providing some details that I might miss. While some things I will just ignore (say the age of the First Age, :)] I think it is much more fun to try and fit in the offical information than to dismiss it. Only when the official stuff takes away from the fun do I completely throw it out the window. So once again thanks for the comments, I want them. - Heru

I am fine with the thing on alchemicals. I was mostly concerned with Mountain folk, but their rank makes perfect sense. I am not sure about the costs, since I never used the artifact background myself (evrthing my player own was crafted or found in-game.) I do feel that the upper cost level are a bit contrived though. I only have one objektion, ant that is Wind blade. Maby it's just me, but I though they were fairly common, and that they had units of windblade archers in the first age. Since celestial are linmited, celestial understandin would invalidat mass production, (I think?)

I don't have actualy edetic/ photographic memory. My psykologist said tha my MeM is about as good as it get without</> being edetic. Hence I can still forget stuff, but once I read somthing through throughly, I can usuallly rembver all key points and meanings of the text and oten well enoug to recall about 80 prect of it. I can still forget, and my meomory is still selsctive, but generally it doenst forget important facts, if I feel well.

Under stress, it is an other matter entierly. Also, thigs like appontments and such...well, they tend to be forgotten too.-Azurelight

Here are my responses Azurelight.

• I don't know what tot say. I appreciate the comments and the advise. I also like the descriptions of cost you are showing me. I just have never been satisfied with the single tier artifact system. Look to my comments to FrivYeti to see what I mean. Its basicly the same thing, you guys are ganging up on me. :) Maybe I should just stick to fluff and ignore rules. -Heru, <i> who is kidding about the ganging up and is actually enjoying the disussion with no hard feelings.

Ok, Heru. I might bae able to provide useful insight. First, don't ignore rules just bacuse. It doenst work well with any system, and Especially not with the Exalted system. The system is a house of cards (even its own developer said that). Also, it is not good to compare Celestil battle armor with Articulated plate with Celestial battle armor, since, by wws own published system, the formes is real artifact 3. The later on the other hand, Actyally requiers 8 dots of backgrounds to work, not 5. those are the things used to balance the costs. The proble with te artifact scale, Imo, is not the scale itself, but the Inability of the writers to apply it consistently.

There is agood way to fix this, and it was publidhed in Savant and sorcerer. Unfourtinetly, the text itself is so clumsly written that, read by itself it makes little sense.

My suggested fix is 2 lengthy to discuss here, but some of it can be found in my BookOfArtifice, and the rest, I will happily share using Email or chat, if you want to-

There are ways to fix the error in the 5 dot scale, but your is a bit clumsy and not intutive enough to make a stable system. I am harsh now, but I am just sharing what 13 years of GMing and system design thought me. -Azurelight

Okay, I accept that this doesn't work rules wise. I also accept that I do not have such a deep understanding of the rules. I know how it works on the surface, but anything beyond that I haven't paid attention to. To me, the story and the world is more entertaining then the pure numbers. Is their any way that I can keep the fluff but discard the rules. I really, *really* want to keep the fluff behind my change. I like what it brings to the game in a completely fluff way. I don't want to discard the fluff. So, I am asking for any help by either you or anybody else who reads this to help me figure out a way to keep the fluff but not that cruntch. -Heru

• I'd say yes, you can keep the fluuf. However, rather than reflect it in a new rule set, reflect it in description. As an example, when a character in my game discovered her past life's dire lance, I didn't describe it as "Ok, you find an orichalcum dire lance in the tomb". I went into detail about the object, describing the loving care put into crafting it, even going so far as to print out a rough sketch a friend made of the engravings along the side. When she uses it in combat, the tip glows with "the contained might of the Unconquered Sun's chosen, the brilliance of dawn's light over a shadowed landscape". While stat-wise it only has the base dire lance stats with the orichalcum MM bonus, everyone who sees it knows this isn't just a "dire lance"... It's Bright Morning Blessing, the lance that slew a god. That legend alone gives weight to the weilder and showing it before certain company impresses and inspires awe.

• While yes, a +3 to damage might be nice, it's so much better when you're facing a little god intent on harming you and you whip out a spear he remembers vividly carving through his ephemeral flesh and shows just a hint of fear and a willingness to talk instead of risk the owner of said spear finishing the job she left so long ago. -Gamerjoe

I refuse to accept the existance of level 2 daiklaves that are only a hearthstone socket, a 5MM bonus and a statline. Every Artifact in existence has a story, even a shitty one. And thus, they all have powers. Now maybe the daiklave or direlance can only ensure that you never get rabies, but it has some power.
As to this whole idea, it's been proposed before. Check out Moxiane's page for his idea of Terrestrial, Celestial and Solar rankings amongst artifacts. I think, personally, it's a horrible idea. The power of an Artifact is determined by the skill of its maker and the materials used to create it. A Lunar can do no better at making Artifacts then a Terrestrial can except that a Lunars Crafts charms (if they had any..) may be more powerful then the Dragon-Bloods. The current 1-5 scale may be somewhat imprecise due to the fact that each level has a range of power inside it, but that can't be helped. And shouldn't be. That's how it was designed. - Telgar

It is also imporatant to note that the Artifact scale is not linear. So an artifact 3 has more power then an artifact 2 +artifact 1. And to keep the fluff image in your head, there a nuber of ways to do that. Like I said though, explining them here is hard for me....Do you use any chat program?

Hmm....GL might help getting the chrunch in line though -Azurelight

I know its not linear and that item description is very important, I also know that it could technically fit everything in it. I just think its clunky. What is, for example, an artifact 4 weapon. If thousands and one devices can fit in that level than how can I actually decide what goes in their, just guess. I don't know, I like the concept of Terrestrial, Celestial and Solar Rank Artifacts but I am not a person who understands the rules to the very deep degree needed to make it work rules wise. Thats okay, I don't need to modify the rules to modify the fluff. Any help, Azurelight and the others, would be appreciated. I don't just want to ditch this as I am very attached to the concept. -Heru

As a pro writer, one of the first things I learned is that the thing you love most is the thing you must let go of. Does that mean ditch? Well... usually, honestly. On the other hand, there are some very good ideas here. I think what is needed is first to leave the idea alone for a few days, then to come back and look at it fresh with an eye towards what is worth keeping and what isn't as good as you first thought. Wheat and chaff grow on the same stalk after all. I'd be glad to help develop and grow your idea, once you've decided what the most important part for you to keep is. - IanPrice

I point out that "Exalted" scale enchanted equipment will typically beat a canon artifact 2 MagicalMaterials varient. Perfect weapons are already pretty close to a daiklave before the material bonus, and don't have any attunement costs. Giving -more- bonuses to mortal-enchanted objects makes them, unless you're facing a sorcerer with a dispel, a more preferable choice than an artifact. I don't think that should happen quite like that.
-- Darloth

• Ex2nd Straight Sword with Exalted enchantment: Speed 4(I guess), Acc +5, Dam +6L, Def +2, Rate 3 (+2s on Damage and Accuracy)
• Ex2nd Daiklave with orichalcum material bonus: Speed 5, Acc +4, Dam +6L, Def +3, Rate 4 (commit cost 5, art 2)
• These hold out with 1st edition even moreso. Also, I didn't subtract 1 from speed for Exalted level enchantment, not sure if it applies. The stats are basically the same, but, the straight sword is easier to hide, a bit quicker (to make up for less rate) and slightly more accurate, although less defense. It doesn't cost art 2, and has 0 commit cost, which is nice.

My comments to the above:

• Telgar, thanks for the comment. I know that you do not feel the need for such a system, I do though. After you posted the information about Moxiane's page I read it. I gotta say, while its interesting I do not like the fact that his idea on Solar Artifacts. I do not see fate having to do anything with it, and I don't like it. Other than that it was an interesting read, quite fun. Yet not what I want. You seem to like to remove the magic of the Exalted away from the crafting. When I say a Solar is better than a Celestial, or a Celestial better than a Terrestrial, or a Terrestrial better than a mortal I am talking about including anima effects, Charms, sorcery, ability to speak to spirits, etc. To me all that has to be added to the effect, and in total makes the higher types of Exalted better than the former. Using the Charms and magics available to the Solar Exalted they can craft things that no Terrestrial Exalted can imagine.
• IanPrice, I never ditch my ideas. I save them and store them until later when they might come in handy. Their are a lot of no-more than paragrah ideas that I have stored away in a file in Word. Many times I have went through them and found snipets that so fit something new that I am doing. So yes, I can see myself going away from this for a while. But, no, I will never throw the idea away or discard it completely. If that sounds argumentative, it kinda is but its not meant to be hars or mean (if that makes sense). I appreciate the comments and the help that you are suggesting.
• Thanks for the comment Darloth. My thought behind the Exalted level (whether its accurate or not is something else) is that all Artifacts have that boost automatically. Since officially it doesnt, you need to add it on top. I saw it as making a device that has the potential to actually hold the Essence that makes an artifact an artifact. Thus, while you are increasing the potential of mundane artifacts, you must almost always increase the minimum of magicial artifacts.
• On another point, this doesn't seem to work as a character creation system. Thus, I am going to try and figure out a way to make this operate beyond character creation. What that entails is in no way effecting the Artifact Background, those costs will remain the same. This system will only effect artfacts in game, which is more story driven than the ones bought at character creation. -Heru

I had a new idea, and I want to place it here as notes. This system wouldn't effect the character creation purchace of artifacts. That would remain entirely based on artifact level and not who built it. This works because it seems that the artifact rating is based on rarity, at least that is how White Wolf has wrote it even if its not the way its supposed to work. The concept of Terrestrial, Celestial, Solar only comes in during the player building of an Artifact. While I will have rules in time, the first question in this system would be: Is it of your Rank or below. If yes, then its within your personal capabilities, if no, then you cannot even fanthom the secrets behind it. - Heru

After ignoring this for a whole I decided to take a look at it today. Going over it I like some of what I posted while not liking other parts. Some of the changes I would make is this:

o What was previous called the first, or mortal, level could be called the Zeroth Level. Its like the standard Martial Arts skill is the zeroth level of the supernatural martial arts - this concept is described in the Scroll of the Monk.

o Terrestrial, Celestial and Solar Rank artifacts work in a fluff text but not in a rule base. Because of that I plan on removing the rules mechanic of this and making it entirely fluff. That is, declaring something as Solar has no effect on artifact background or creation rules. The only power it does have is in saying who can actually design and construct that type of artfiact.

o Again, instead of making it rulebased I will be tying in 'suggestions' of how the current artfiact levels could translate into my system. For example:

o Zeroth Rank Artifce (mortal) are all considered under the Resource background not Artfiact.

o Terrestrial Artifacts are generally considered Artifacts 1 and 2; Celestial is usually 3 and 4, and Solar usually 5 and N/A.

o The above is not a hard and fast rule though, for sometimes other reasons (such as game balance or rarity) could cause a lower rank artifact to be given a higher Artifact Rating, or visa versa. Best example of this are the armors in the core book which provide no magical abilities but are quite high up on the scale of dots - they would all be Terrestrial despite some of them being Artifact 3, 4 and 5.

o Another question is what groups fit under the various category ranks. Using both upper posted information and current thought here is what I think.

o Zeroth Rank - Mortals

o First Rank - Terrestrials, Dragon-Kings, Ghosts

o Second Rank - Lunars, Sidereals, Mountain Folk (with Geas), Alchemicals (standard)

o Third rank - Solars, Abyssals, Mountain Folk (before the Great Geas), Alchemicals (city versions)

o I think this change makes perfect sense, I am not playing with the rules, rather I am adding some fluff text above and beyond that. This fluff makes it so that the rules can fit in how those in the Shogunate and the Second Age (and even Lunars and Sidereals) could not create stuff that were created by the Solars in the First Age. And since I am not affecting the rules at all, no balance issues will come of this. And thus everybody wins. :) -Heru