Difference between revisions of "XerExaltedLite/OldComments"

Latest revision as of 04:57, 9 June 2010

Old Comments

Older comments from the original project have been archived here.

Main Page Comments take 2

Two things. A) Celerity = swiftness of motion. Absolutely nothing to do with celestial things. B) ..I guess my question is, if you don't like the Exalted system and the tone it sets, why the hell are you playing it? Why not make up your own system and setting? This has been something that has always bothered me with system redesigns. - Will

A) Thus the nature of the Celerity talents. B) Because, I'm doing that, but I never finish. Maybe I will, some day, but the system always undergoes these radical changes as I take idea A and B and come up with C and find it's hella neat only to find D (on my own or elsewise) trumps it and then there's the matter of "Do I make the system for on-line play or tabletop too?" Exalted's got a system I can stick to and orbit around, sort of. And a thoroughly established setting.

Unless you count my Neo DBZ work. But that's another story entirely. -Xeriar

very very interesting, let us know how it works. -HeWhoSpeaksOfDarkness

Main Page Comments

Cute. ^_^ I think a lighter version is a great idea. I did something similar, but went a different route! (at BrokenShade/ExaltedD10). ^_^ -- BrokenShade

I dig the Extras rule. Its basically just "use average results instead of rolling", which as far as I'm concerned is a good idea much of the time. If I'm trying to get a 30 die hit through a 23 die parry, why don't I just roll againist difficulty 12? Actually, results will tend towards the average more the more dice you roll, so it would work better with Exalts.

I would avoid rewriting the Ablities, because that would mean fiddling with the charms as well. Keep in mind that buying Charms is much more expensive than buying Ablities: getting a favored ablity to 5 from one costs 16 points, which is only the cost of two charms. So if you think one ablity is unbalanced, fiddle with its Charm set. -MeiRen

Only thing about doing that for defense is multiple defensive actions... I might try to come up with something, but people were the most frustrated with Extras, in general, so here it is. :-)

As you might notice from the Talents, that is exactly what I mean to do :-) In most cases it works alright - the Sidereal Prayer Strip Charm for Brawn is quite appropriate to Warfare, for example. The ultimate goal of this is less reliance on books for the vast swath of Charms out there, and the ability to reference a shorter list for say, half the available Charms is my goal - for any given Celestial Exalt type, 30 Talents cover over five hundred possible Charm purchases. DBs were not so reduceable, but enough that I could get at least one Talent outta them. -- Xeriar

I'm not sure I like the idea. Generic talents tend to be pretty dry. And if you're going to do that, why not just raid TriStat dx? I think generic talents have their place, but I'm not sure its Exalted. -MeiRen

I needed a sanity check, badly. This is that sanity check - it is far, far easier, as a GM, to handle ~50 core Talents and ~500 Charms than it is to handle ~100 'core' Charms and ~900 other Charms. It's also a lot easier for me to get a feel for the balance of it at a glance.

An entirely new system was an option - I was pondering 3d10 roll over, but that didn't capture what I wanted, and I want to make ready use out of the material published as well as the new stuff. And, people might like pieces of the system - custom artifacts, armor, weapons, shields, brawling moves, fast extras, redone Attributes, redone Lunars, redone Abilities, etc. --Xeriar

I'm one of those with an absolute love of the redone Attributes, and fast extras. so much neater. *thanks* -grypph

Thank you :-) And if you finish that character sheet, speak of it here -XerExaltedLite/HouseRules is for my own campaign (whenfor it begins). --Xeriar

Attributes Comments

I've been giving some thought to condensig the attributes down to 6 recently myself. Oddly, my thoughts were rather different than yours. Physicals were the same, though I was going with Might rather than Brawn (shrug). Socials: I dropped Appearance. Some of it got rolled into Charisma. The rest of it would be dealt with, if needed, by merits and flaws - as Appearance rarely worked as an Attribute anyway. Mentals: I dropped Perception. Intelligence would be used for perceptive tasks where concentration was needed (such as thorough searching, investigations, etc). Wits would be used for perceptive tasks that focussed on quick uptake of information (not being surprised, noticing things). -szilard

I'm with szilard. I might also be tempted to break up Dexterity into several ablities, possibly assigning some of its functions to Wits.

Good point about Appearance. If I drop that, I'm left with five... Which means no more physical/mental/social distribution. I can't really find a downside to doing that outside of my suspician regarding Neph's Mountain Folk work. I'm debating on putting Wits back and nuking Intelligence, myself, it seems to be a hard to roleplay trait for a lot of people. -- Xeriar

if you drop appearance, you can get back manipulation in its place -- Domon

(nod) Charisma become the social attribute used for personality-based applications, while Manipulation is used for subtlety. -szilard

I'm still not sold on needing Manipulation. I think Brawn, Dexterity, Charisma, Intelligence and Wits may be all that is needed (particularly with me nixing Investigation). -- Xeriar

maybe Charisma and Majesty? charisma in social finesse, and majesty social power/pressure

The issue regarding that type of thing (and why I dropped Manipulation in the first place) is that you end up with an offensive Social Attribute and a defensive Social Attribute. No other attributes in the game work like this - they can all apply to both offense and defense. In the end, I need to consider how often these stats are going to be used as well as their ramifications. Dexterity and Brawn both have extensive uses outside of combat, but Charisma, Manipulation and Appearance don't have nearly as many uses outside of Social situations. If I make Appearance a Merit instead of an Attribute, then there is no reason to make another one to replace it.

Intelligence, Perception and Wits may not be used as much, but they are often used for what may potentially be more important things. I think I will go with the Intelligence & Wits combination as someone suggested, and perhaps allow the various Exalted types to have Favored Attributes, which could be cool. --Xeriar

i understand your point: so we need more generic social attributes, good not only for influencing but for assessing the social situation and understanding when you are being socially exploited... i can provide names... maybe *coolness* (or composure?) and *empathy* ?

I went back to Charisma and Manipulation, though I'm a bit tempted to try to name them something more appropriate like Presence and Charisma or somesuch. As it stands now I just made the description of Manipulation a little less vilifying and hope that may be enough. --Xeriar

I insist that meybe a "social perception" stat like empathy would do wonders ;)

"Dexterity and Brawn both have extensive uses outside of combat, but Charisma, Manipulation and Appearance don't have nearly as many uses outside of Social situations." -- Um, but, they're not Combat Attributes, they're Physical Attributes. - willows

Alright, cone with szilard's setup for the most part. Thanks everyone. -- Xeriar

First off: The Manipulation/Charisma dichotomy is very useful for social heavy games. It helps create distinctions in otherwise similiar characters, and its a worthwhile different. Now if you're playing a very social lite game, then yeah Charisma is all you need. But really, why not drop stats entirely? Simply lower all the difficulties appropriatelly and you'd be fine. -MeiRen

Abilities Comments

Animal Ken is a really lame Ability name.

I find it odd that Melee subsumes Brawl.

Abilities that no one could possibly want and be heroic at once:

• • Numerology
  • Profession (Why this and Craft too?)

It seems pointless to rename Sail.

You combined Archery and Thrown but not Endurance and Resistance? - willows

Why divide Numerology from Lore (Math) and Occult (everything else)? And why not just use Professions as specializations of Crafts? DS

I renamed Sail because I wanted to make it clear it encompassed more than just sea vessels. I suppose it's unnecessary but it was hard to think of any synonym for both Sail and Flight. Ride because, well, the skill simply doesn't cover enough, WoD 2.0 called it Animal Ken and I figured that sounded better than 'Animal Handling'.

Originally, I had chopped the list down to 21 skills, combining Resistance and Endurance into Endurance, and two others which I'm at a loss to remember. Having a rather annoying need for both Warfare and Martial Arts didn't help that much. I am certainly open to ideas that could knock things down to 20 Abilities that still cover the 'heroic' spectrum. I re-split Resistance and Endurance and added Numerology and Profession largely as a last resort. 'Unheroic' from a certain point of view, there are people who think Newton more heroic than anyone else because he invented calculus. Stories where heroes stoop low and perform menial tasks are also rather common.

Ranged and Melee exist as they do because Martial Arts ends up covering the full spectrum of both of them. Historical combat training involved grapples, both in Eastern and Western practice. I saw no real reason to have them split, most fighters even armed will be using both at the same time, though Exalted is really unwilling to reflect that mortals can be so competant. Combining Archery and Thrown was mostly because it was weird to have two supercombat skills (Melee and Martial Arts) and then leaving those two hurting for competance. -- Xeriar

If, as you note, MA ends up encompassing both Melee and Ranged, what is the point of having all three skills? If I can use my MA ability (as a mortal) to inflict kung-fu beat down with say fist, sword and bow? or with more skill, say spear and knife too, why would anyone ever teach Melee or Ranged? Oh sure, there might be a few backward nations that have yet to see the true power of kung-fu, but its far easier just to train troops in Fist-Fu, Sword-Fu and Bow-Fu... I guess it makes it kind of epic for Melee-using heroes, finally overthrowing the cruel shakles of their mortal ability, and into proper <Exalted-type> Melee. I have to agree with willows and DS, why profession? and what is the point of numerology? First, profession...at what point does my Profession 3 (Tailor, Merchant, MajorDomo) start to be lacking and require me to start to buy Craft(clothier), Bureaucracy (and Numerology) and Socialise? Or atlternately, assuming I Exalt (and I'm lucky and become a solar) and gain some talents in the skill, what stops me throwing magic at the problem of increased difficulty (using the savings from not buying charms/talents... On to numerology: It fully explains the mastery of the guild (all those accountant-artificers they must have...) and also prompts me to invest for time into learning to balence my accounts. If I get good enough, the realm defence grid is just waiting for me. ;) Also it kind screws shamanistic types, no longer can they just rely on an innate sense of how essence works, and talking to spirits, if they want to make artifacts, they need to learn Accounting 101, and Essence Differential Calculus... Also as a minor note, you seem to interchange between Presaution and Presence in the caste lists and this ability list.
- Kraken
Also, Joe avergae is a 4-dice extra. He will almost certainly never, ever manage 6 successes on a roll.

20 Abilities it is, I think. szilard is using only five but I find that a bit too simple for my tastes. Numerology was intended for high-level, not 'common' (3 dot or less) artifacts, but it's mostly Martial Arts and Occult that get me. Favoring these is so advantagious it isn't funny. So spells will get put into a flat (but cheaper) system and Martial Arts will become something else whose nature I am as of yet unsure. -- Xeriar

Social Combat Comments

Well...since the goal of your rules revision is to simplify mechanics, I think making social combat so complex is a mistake. Just altering difficulty of a presence roll up and down seems faster and more efficient. I admit I've only scanned your ExaltedLite system, though, so perhaps I'm missing some virtues. - AlsaceAndLorraine

I've been thinking about that, but another goal of it is to try to have an idea of just how hard it is to convert a Monk, or convince someone to be your utter slave, or other things along those lines. Though, I ought to admit, it really should be largely an NPC-only mechanic. Or perhaps not really a part of 'Lite' at all and a seperate project in general since it adds complexity (even though it's the kind that I like - more detailed characters == more gooder) and put it under my House Rules. - Xeriar

If you're rebuilding a system, you might as well go whole hog. - willows

Out of my sense of curiousity, have you seen the ScarletManualOfUprightBearing? It seems to have a number of similiar ideaas behind it, although a little bit more fleshed out. DS

I read CrownedSun's SocialResolutionSystem awhile back, but not yours until after I wrote this. As it stands, no system really encompasses everything I want it to - not even this one. I like rewarding virtues over penalizing them, and having difficulties that mortals can't walk over, but it doesn't handle typical friendships and such at all (except loyalty). I need to reorganize this. -- Xeriar

Universal Talent Comments

First of all, I like some of the ideas behind these talents though I would suggest a few changes. First, extract all your changed rules from the talents, make a new page of it. I shouldnt have to look at Athletics Talents (or whatever) to know the mortal uses of the skill. Also, as written, you have to sink 2 charms into Medicine for the Talent to do anything. I think you meant the healing rates should be (Number of times you've taken the charm+1) times faster. (As an aside lunars in DBT can regain 4L+ a turn o.0?
Underling Understanding...is blatant schtick stealing. I can be this flaming, flexible, tough as nails exalt who dives from a mile into water to fight flawlessly. Well, solars can do that (or duplicate the effects though other charms) but they shouldnt become manifestations of the elements...
I flipflop over the power/cost of the 'expand a multiskill charm'. It sucks for linguistics, but profesion it really rocks for them. I think with 7 profesions you could easily manage practically every ability you'll ever need, thus freeing up so much xp to then buy profession talents and thus gain superhuman competance...
Draw From Essence: Nice Idea, rather over costed, I think though. Also, it takes me til essence 10 for me to master the art of making small jade coins, when for 5 motes (and 5 charmslots - loads for what you can make), I can simply make a knife and sell it for a handful of jade coins really easily. I understand the idea (not making it easy to make money) but it doesnt quite work...
Perternatural Sense: WAY overcosted. Also very confusing description. I have Awareness 5. I can boost all my senses by 4 dice? (stupid xp) or one by 4 and then one other by one?
Mystical Leadership Mein:So so cheap. As a starting solar I can easily get 25 superskilled and magical soldiers. It takes half my charms, but the people I'll get out of it. wow! I have almost 100bp to spend on each of them. The bit about replacing inheritance hints at charms too. I think Mystical Leadership Mein sounds like a good buy...
Endurance: wow! Sid Ox-body rocks now! 2 -0 HLs. no need to worry about pinnacle charms now...
Essence Wind: Is nice, but the penalties for shooting at such extreme ranges make such shots kind of useless.
Iron Will Meditation: Social Soak is twice as efficent as normal soak?
- Kraken

Right, I was thinking of that, moved :-p

The Medicine Talent was fine - I should have specified that Exalted heal at mortal rates otherwise. Turns are 3 seconds long, 20 to a minute, so Lunar Regeneration gets, at best, 2L per round. Perhaps a little slow.

You're right about the expand a multiskill charm. MA and Profession in general. I think I'm going to be forced down to 20 -real- abilities after some fashion, I'm mostly thinking up a new method now.

Mystical Leadership Mein needs an XP cost. Or, better, I should make a 'leuitenant' background and work this Talent to it, and fix Familiar while I'm at it.

Preternatural Sense and Essence Wind changed... hopefully better.

Sidereals are going to need a remaking, simply because I couldn't adequately compress their Talents, so they will probably end up less Uber (looking) in comparison to the other Celestials.

And, thanks. Other stuff will have to be addressed later as I rethink more and more of this game. -- Xeriar