Shataina/DemonSummoning

Nastifying Demon-Summoning

Demon-summoning is not dramatic enough; also, it should be harder and more unpleasant.

If you do not agree with the above assertion, then this page is not for you.

• over to Shataina's general sorcery houserules.

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Justification

Demon-summoning is too easy, and overpowered. It's also remarkably undramatic, particularly considering how much potential it has. The sorcerer is calling a powerful, sentient being and raping its free will; but the way this is reflected in canon boils down to little more than, "Hey, look, our sorcerer is a factory of super-awesome, easily controlled, incredibly versatile magical effects!" "Savant and Sorcerer" (hereafter "S&S", to lapse into lawyerspeak for a moment) tried to fix this a little bit with Rebecca Borgstrom's nifty demon-limit-break system, but I remain unsatisfied. The demon-summoning system is still, to my eyes, both relatively undramatic and simplistic.

It's fine with me if sorcerers are overconfident about summoning demons; that's some great grand-hubristic-tragedy material. What bothers me is that, with the current system, they have cause to be overconfident. One might even say that a sorcerer who doesn't summon demons is needlessly crippling herself. That should never be true; sorcerers who don't summon demons should be doing the wise thing.

And I really hate how easy it is to reduce these powerful, sentient beings to a stack of mechanics. It's practically encouraged. They're treated like swords or tables or whatever: as utility objects.

I want the system to have more innate drama than that. I want people to have to deal with the demons they've summoned in ways they didn't expect and don't like; I want them to sometimes doubt the wisdom of their choice. I want demon-summoning to be difficult and full of risks. I want those who traffic with demons to have to make some sacrifices, even Exalts, and I want those sacrifices to remind them just what kind of beings they're dealing with.

Also, I think the Yozis are just stronger than this. There's probably some meta-reason that demon-summoning is so easy -- I mean, beyond the fact that the Yozis can possess and use their offspring. It's probably something like, "every time an Exalt summons a demon, the prison weakens and soon it will collapse, baaahaha!" But meta-reasons have the disadvantage of not being relevant to games in which you don't want to deal with meta-effects.

Most of these wants can be addressed with good storytelling and dramatic demon-playing, but I'm implementing some new mechanics, too.

New Problems with Summoning

I'm sort of keeping the demon-limit-break system, with a few important changes. It's not that I don't understand what Ms. Borgstrom was trying to do, and it's not that I don't appreciate her particular brand of esoteric monster-psychology. It's just that I appreciate it somewhere else, i.e., not in my games.

• A bound demon's mind isn't automatically forced into worshipping its summoner simply because the summoner succeeded on the binding ritual, as implied by "S&S". The binding ritual has no effect on the demon's psyche beyond forcing it to obey the summoner (she can still use Presence Charms or whatever to make it like her, though). However, it does require the demon to serve the spirit as well as the letter of her orders, if it is intelligent enough to understand it.
• I am also eliminating the different end results of the Limit Break. A demon whose Limit has broken is, quite simply, free to act according to its own will for a certain period of time, after which the binding reasserts itself. This time period is: a full day (24 hours) for First Circle demons; an hour for Second Circle demons; and a minute for Third Circle demons. A strange effect of the Limit Break is that, after it is over, the demon forgets all the actions it undertook during that time; thus, it cannot be forced to reveal them by the summoning sorcerer. When the binding is done, the demon recovers these lost memories.
• A bound demon's Limit Break does not go up only if the sorcerer forces it into its listed Limit Break Condition. It also goes up if the demon is forced to do anything else that it really, really, really is dead-set against, emotionally -- things it would practically never normally do. For example, Makarios does not only gain Limit if he is kept from bargaining for dreams; he also gains Limit if he is forced to do something that will seriously damage his merchant empire, or if he is forced to kill the daughter he loves.
• There is no way to reduce Limit, and it is assigned on a fixed scale rather than rolled. This scale is based on how much the demon hates what it is being forced to do, and ranges from one to three points.
• Keep in mind that sorcerers don't think of Limit in terms of Limit Break; they don't think, "Gosh, Makarios is at 7," or whatever. They simply know that if demons are forced to go against themselves too often, the binding can bend long enough for them to do things that are not their summoner's will. Demons themselves also generally don't exactly know what will make them snap, so the sorcerer can't really order a bound demon to tell her what will make it happen. A particularly sensitive sorcerer that cultivates a good relationship with her bound demons might be able to figure out what they hate doing most so that she can avoid it flawlessly, and only make them do things they kinda hate. However, many demons are manipulative and will make it clear that they hate doing everything, so it will be difficult to tell what they really hate doing; not to mention the fact that many demons are used to cruel and bastardly masters, and will not want to give away what it is they hate doing most lest their masters make them do it for fun. (Also, you can count the number of sorcerers that are sensitive and kind with their demons on the fingers of your left foot.)

Other Changes

• A summoning sorcerer cannot force a bound demon to spend Willpower, although the demon may do so on its own.
• Once bound, a demon cannot be unbound. They can accept permanent personal destruction rather than fulfill the binding (as detailed on page 72 of "S&S"), but this is not because the oath is part of the demon's nature (I know, minor nitpick, but I wanted to make it clear).
• For every First Circle demon a sorcerer has currently bound, the difficulty of subsequent binding rolls goes up by one. For every Second Circle demon a sorcerer has currently bound, the difficulty of subsequent binding rolls goes up by three. For every Third Circle demon a sorcerer has currently bound, the difficulty of subsequent binding rolls goes up by five. Keep in mind that (normal) death does not break the binding upon a demon (only death in the line of serving the oath or absolute death does, and sometimes, not even then).
  • This effect may be circumvented by making a summoning-bargain with the demon. As detailed on pages 73-74 of "S&S", if both the demon and the summoner pause the contest of wills during the summoning ritual, they may bargain. If both accept a bargain, then the sorcerer is bound to do what she's said she'd do in exchange for the demon's services. (Demons in such a bargain with the sorcerer are hereafter listed as "bargained".)
  • Bargained demons do not normally gain Limit, but they will if they discover that they have been tricked into agreeing to do something that would normally give them Limit if bound. If a bargained demon's Limit breaks, it is free to act normally in the same fashion as a Limit-Broken bound demon.
  • There is no way to dissolve a bargain made in this way, just as there is no way to dissolve a binding once it is established. A sorcerer who betrays such a bargain no longer takes the penalty outlined on page 72 of "S&S"; instead, the effect is the same as that of breaking an Eclipse-Caste-bound bargain, substituting the sorcerer's own Essence for the number of catastrophic botches she suffers.

Negative Effects for Specific Demons

There are things even sorcerers cannot erase from demons, things having to do with each demon's essential nature.

What follows are some examples of problems that arise from various demons' essential natures. Again, sorcerers can't force demons not to do these things; the demon itself can't control the effect.

Needless to say, the physically human-affecting effects affect Exalted just as well as anyone else (hey, look how grammatical that bit was, eh?). The only difference is that Exalted heal any damage after they have removed the relevant demon; mortals don't. (For example, the physical oddities incurred by sesselja-users remain with mortals forever, unless removed by an outside source.) There may be Charms that can inhibit some of these effects, but they cannot totally eliminate them (except at quite high levels).

Demons of the First Circle

• Erymanthoi are naturally material; in fact, they are so naturally material that they have difficulty dematerializing. They must succeed on a difficulty 3 Willpower roll to dematerialize. The blood-ape also pays the remaining-in-alternate-state motes (reference: "Players' Guide", page 82) to stay immaterial rather than material, and every time it pays the motes, it must remake the Willpower roll.
• Perronele, when used as armour, exert a strange and toxic effect upon the skin they layer themselves upon, secreting strange hormones into the person's bloodstream. These chemicals have different effects depending on the sorcerer and the perronele; some act as a hallucinogenic drug, some cause moodiness, etc. This is constant, but the perronele-user cannot "build up immunity" to it.
• Sesselja change the nature of the bodies they stay in; the longer they stay, the more dramatic the changes. At first there may be little but a recolouring of the inhabited person's eyes or a retexturing of their hair; it gets worse from there, though, and after a few months of sesselja-inhabitation, a person will probably have truly grotesque physical anomalies such as new legs or large green scales.

(More eventually.)

Why Would Anyone Summon A Demon Under Your Rules, Shataina?!

Demons are still more flexible than individual spells. For example, a demon bodyguard, particularly when a wise sorcerer is doing his best to keep it happy, is longer-lasting, smarter, and significantly faster than any defensive spell; moreover, it can act on its own while the sorcerer does something else (like run away), and cannot be bribed or brainwashed by enemies.

Demons also have many capabilities spells do not. For example, Makarios has many connections that a sorcerer may wish to exploit; he is also capable of making incredibly powerful artifacts incredibly fast; he can also bring objects into reality that don't normally exist.

Many demons know things about, say, First Age lore that almost nothing in Creation does; granted, some powerful gods or whatever may know the same things, but finding those beings and getting them to cooperate is often a lot harder and (supposedly / apparently) more difficult to control than summoning a demon and bargaining with it.

Comments

Interesting idea. I agree with general premise, although this is a bit harsh for my tastes. Under this, I can see no reason to summon a First Circle Demon, as it makes it harder to summon more demons, and unless I'm really missing something, they arn't that great. I expect the result would be that sorcerers will only summon Second+ Circle demons for specific tasks, and bargin with them. As given, one should try to reduce the duration of service, such that the demon doesn't break, as limit breaks are catestrophic.

What always seemed odd to me was that Second Circle and higher demons wern't really all that much more difficult to summon. Mechanicly, it's a bit more difficult, but not that much really. Personaly, I think something like this should apply to them. First Circle demon's don't bother me, except in high numbers. I'll probably do something like every Essence First Circle demons bound increases the binding difficult for First Circle Demons by one. (probably with a loophole for long term services that don't directly benefit the sorcerer, like guarding tombs or something) Sure, there is some wackyness and concesssions to their general nature, but unless you push them, there isn't to much difficulty.

Something like this seems apropriate for Second+ circle demons, who have their own personalities etc. These I think should have shorter bindngs and more specific tasks, rather than 'I summon it and order it to do stuff'. This seems to me where you get into the true nastyness, bargins and costs. -FlowsLikeBits, who has a slighly different take, but appreciates this anyway

Thanks. Yeah, I can see what you're saying. I did actually ponder doing as you suggest with the Essence in First Circle demons putting subsequent binding rolls up by one rather than each one, but I decided that if I was gonna err, I'd do it on the meaner side. (I also, incidentally, figured that such stuff that didn't directly benefit the sorcerer could be done with bargains too.) The major problem here is that Summon First Circle Demon is such a dayumm powerful and flexible spell, especially compared to the rest of the Terrestrial Circle, and I want it to have nasty drawbacks to counterbalance that power. It would be one thing if there was, say, a separate spell to summon each individual demon / type of demon -- that way, First Circle Summoning wouldn't boil down to, "Every time I want to accomplish anything, I can just summon a demon who's specifically really good at it" -- but there isn't. And I don't want to break it into separate spells, because then everyone will take, like, the same two demon-summoning spells, and a lot of the cool / flavourful demons will never be in my games because people don't want to spend the points to buy the spell for it.

I kind of like the whole forcing-sorcerers-to-reduce-their-task-duration thing, too. I like careful sorcerers being forced to be very specific and suchlike, and being forced to sometimes err on the side of caution and do excessively complicated short-term bargains to protect themselves.

Anyway, I only have a single-player game right now, and he's not complaining that much about these rules, so I figure I'll test them for a little while and then un-nerf them a little if I think First Circle demons are too much of a pain. It doesn't seem that bad to me overall, since, First Circle demons are generally pretty easy to take down -- thus, if their Limit Breaks and it's an emergency, it's not that hard to deal with it.

On a different note, I agree that it's weird that Second Circle+ demons are so easy to summon, and I'm basically convinced that there's a meta-reason for it (partially, as said above). My personal guess here would feed into the (slightly obvious) theory that's going around, that sorcery came from the Yozis rather than the gods. Thus, the Yozis would have given the Exalted sorcery, including very very easy demon-summoning, so that demons would be summoned into Creation a lot and the Yozis could have more opportunity to wreak havoc and further their evil evil plans. Unfortunately, since this is, again, a meta-reason, it ends up not being that relevant to most actual games, and we end up with some overpowered spells that have few drawbacks. Le sigh.
~ Shataina have I mentioned that your username highly amuses me? well, it does.

Actually, it makes sense that Demons are so easy to summon. They can, after all, be summoned by mortals with only a rudimentary understanding of Thaumaturgy. The tricky bit should be binding them. - szilard

Well, yes. Sorry I wasn't exact.
~ Shataina

Heard from someone with the Autochtonian book that it's confirmed Yozis gave Exalted sorcery. Sorry I don't have much else useful to offer. ~ Andrew02

Heh. I guess the rumours / writer giveaways got to be too much.
~ Shataina

Well, by the Thaumatergy rules, that is more or less true. Mortals can summon demons(even 2nd circle,theoreticaly), but they have very little hope of binding them. S&S had the problem that making bargins with demons was pointless. (If the demon rejected the bargin, it got an auto success. Thus there seemed to be little reason for the demon to accept a bargin. Rather than just reject them and go free) I think maybe something like this: If two bargining sessions fail and the summoner fails to bind/banish the demon the demon get's sent back to Malfeas and the summoner takes a number of aggrevated health levels equal to twice the demons circle. This gives the demons and summoner some incentive to accept bargins, but still punishes the summoner(although non-fatally).

The Book of 3 circles implies that sorcery was discovered after the Primordial war(and the terms of surrender that enable summoning) and came from spirits. Retcon? Demon summoning never seemed THAT powerful. You can only summon one per day, at a specific time of day. You can only summon one second circle demon per month, and one third circle demon per year. Honestly, sorcery in general seemed to me like a kind of backup ability. If you don't have access to some capabilty, sorcery can probably get a weak, very specific form of it with a bunch of drawbacks. It's never as good as even a moderatly talented exalted specialist, but still kinda use full. This allows circles to deal with things that no-one is specialized for. The results is, alot of stuff is kinda ill specificied. Personally, I think this is kinda cool, although it is up to the ST to prevent abuse, which can be problematic. This seems like a good set of additional limits. Sorry for the theorizing. -FlowsLikeBits is here for your amusement

If you look carefully at the "Bo3C" text, you'll find that the description of the spirit who granted sorcery to Brigid exactly matches the description of Mara, Demon of the Second Circle (she's detailed in the ST handbook) -- right down to the conditions under which she meets Brigid (Brigid is weeping for her missing love), etc. It also mentions earlier in the section that "demons still walked the earth" or something like that. That passage is where the argument originates. As for the "auto-success" thing for the demon rejecting the bargain, that's a singular auto-success, not a full success (it gets one extra success on its dice, which is not really useful, given that a good sorcerer will have mauled its dice pool).

Demon-summoning isn't weak. The restriction on First Circle demons is a token one. A single erymanthus can take down some Dragon-Blooded (I've seen this happen) -- and since you can canonically summon one per day with no effective limits, and having multiples of a given thing makes it several times as likely to kill an individual anything else, that means that any demon-summoning sorcerer can make themselves practically invincible. Why wouldn't a sorcerer take a couple months of downtime / pre-game time, summon 15 erymanthoi and order them to remain dematerialized around him all the time, only materializing to protect? And let's not forget the perronele armour he already has, and the 39 sesselja that are reflexively using Touch of Grace for him once per sesselja per scene. And none of those protections are even visible to 99% of the world, so there's no real reason anyone should know about them ahead of time (unless I guess they've fought him before). Sure, maybe he's in trouble if you want to enter an anti-demon spirit court or something, but aside from specifically contrived supernatural situations, this boils down to one spell protecting him from, well, an awful lot. Say ... entire mercenary companies, companies of Realm-trained soldiers, and probably small groups of young Celestials.

And for the others? The point of higher-level demons isn't quantity, it's quality. (You won't hear me saying that Second Circle demons are powerful enough, but they're certainly horribly powerful and not to be dismissed merely because you can "only" summon one per month.) Makarios, for example, can make any artifact of any level at will with no specified time requirement, if I recall correctly (just a mote / success requirement, both of which are fairly easily met). Third Circle demons ... well ... let's not get into this.

In general, even aside from the demon thing, I really think you're underestimating sorcery, but I'm not going to try to argue you out of your opinion, as I'm sure you've played with it enough to know how well it stacks up in your games, and I suspect that your games are highly dissimilar to mine if you think it's not that useful. I would, however, generally advise you to re-evaluate your opinion of it if you end up in a game you're unfamiliar with. And again, thanks; I do appreciate the comments (don't worry about the theory).
~ Shataina

Apparently Yozi sorcery invention got confirmed in developer chat. Blech.(I kinda like humans, even Exalted ones, doing something original.) Anyway. I gotta agree with you about different games. I wonder, what would you consider a 'reasonable' use of demons? Say one ape guard and a perronelle? (Never use perronelle, they don't make sense to me. You don't seem like them though, not that I blame you, as the simplest interpreation makes them the equivilent to a minor artifact. Technicaly they only have 79 percent chance helping vs a given blow(they have to 'see' it, and they only have 3 dice, unless you want creepy eyes all over your armor). That's complicated though. An shouldn't they take damage also?) Sorry.

I understand your point. They way it's generally always seemed to me is: If you start over doing it, disadvantages start appearing. It seems hard to set a fixed limit though. I would be interesting to know how sorcery is used in your games, as other than a few rather wide open spells(summoning, Imbue), it doesn't seem all THAT userful. There are couple cool specialized things, but...I suppose it depends on how hard one makes finding/researching spells. Has anyone used these? I am honestly curious.

I just (re)noticed the last sentance under "Other changes." instead, the effect is the same as that of breaking an Eclipse-Caste-bound bargain, substituting the sorcerer's own Essence for the number of catastrophic botches she suffers. Should this be the "demon's" essence? It seems weird otherwise.

Anyway, Interested to see where this goes. --FlowsLikeBits

See, in general I don't want there to be a "reasonable" use of demons. Demon-summoning should be an irresponsible shortcut to power that comes at a nasty price. I know this is a worn theme, but I like it better than the current one. I don't really mind perronele, even, although I do think they're kind of silly and obviously contrived for a purpose. And yes, I would agree with you that perronele should take damage, but I also think that armour should take damage / lose soak / etc when it's frequently used.

What do you mean by "has anyone used these"? I'm confused -- do you mean custom spell-making rules? I let my players design their spells according to other peoples' mechanics help (I'm not great with mechanics, really, unless I'm particularly familiar with something) and then just veto stuff I don't like and suggest replacements.

I substituted the sorcerer's own Essence because the sorcerer is the one binding the bargain, effectively -- s/he's casting the binding spell. The idea is that the binding bargain on both parties is just another version of the alternative, the binding of the demon; the demon itself has little to do with it.
~ Shataina

Thanks for explaining this to me, I understand better now. As for "use", I was actually refering to the demon summoning rules, sorry about being unclear. My bad. While I personally disagree with the goal, it does seem to me that these rules don't accuratly reflect it, there is a large, obvious price and little power to be had. Since there is a static increase in difficulty with each summoning, it seems the net effect would be to reduce overall summonings. I would add more randomness to the process, to get an irresponsible shortcut to power. Perhaps giving each sorcerer a "Summoning Limit", to which each summoning adds a random amount(possibly based on the circle of demon summoned). When a "Break" happens, the next summoning automaticly fails(roll dice to hide the cause of course). A "Summoning Break" reduces limit by some random amount(not totally, but larger than a single summoning, again possibly related to the demon's circle, maybe 2x or 3x). Possibly giving into a demons suggestions could reduce this limit also.(As long as the demon thinks it's corrupting the summoner, you can summon more :) ) This way, summoners don't know how close they are to a problem, thus making it effectivly more of a shortcut to power. I'd also make demons fairly servile after being summoned, but roll limit a fair amount. That way you get a bunch of capable servants, who occasionaly flip out in horrific ways. Yeah for the low road. Gah! Sorry about that. Just some thoughs. -FlowsLikeBits, should really stop sticking whole outlines in posts. sigh

I have a player using these rules right now, yeah. I totally disagree that there is little power to be had ... I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one, because I wouldn't know how to start making my case; I'm guessing this is another game-by-game difference. I had thought about having a randomness issue -- mine was more complicated than your idea, though, and I like your idea for the random summoning failure. I'll be thinking about it; it's a little harsh even for me, but I'll probably add something similar in a couple days. Thank you.
~ Shataina

On the whole, I quite like. A few niggling complaints, though.. THe difficulty increase on first circle demons is too much, without rewriting meta-history: Consider he hundred demons used t obuild the invisible manse, and numerous other places where it mentions using 10+ first circle demons on a project: And I'm not even going to consider a scale 5 demon summoning project for building a manse with these demon rules. It would be (almost) impossible. on the flip side, i like the thoughts regarding free will.. hmm. Lastly, having read autocthonia, regarding sorcery, I hath a theory: THat.. well. It is stated that the ability to summon demons was given t othe exalted as part of the compact forced on the primordials: It's a logical enough extention to say that the clause might translate something like, 'And you shal lgive us power to control the world you have created, just as you do: power, yes, that we the gods might equal you, and call you forth from the place we imprison you, for we are now your equals in master and superior in station: and our first warriors, the solars, shalt hath access to power the equal of your souls, and be able to call them forth to obey thine whims: the lunars and sidereals, their first leitenants, shal be able to command the power of their souls, and call the forth: and lo, our very footsoldiers can command the power of your childer, and call them forth.' and then, lo! the yozi's grumble, eventually sending Mara out to brigid to fulfill this clause: thus demon-summoning is easy because it was a specified part of the purpose of sorcery, and it gives the yozi's a gateway in. - Molikai

I don't see why multiple sorcerers couldn't have summoned lots of demons anyway ... or I could just change around some of the demon references to "automatons". That doesn't seem to be much of a problem to me. As for the meta sorcery theory, it seems a little convoluted ... I generally find it simpler to think that the Exalted didn't think of summoning demons on their own, but the Yozis designed it as a trap.
~ Shataina

Simpler, perhaps... but less interesting. I find the whole Yozis-created-sorcery bit to be... I don't know... vaguely deprotagonizing. I prefer the idea of Exalts creating Sorcery themselves as a sort of hacking of Creation. Demon-summoning seems like something that sorcerers ought to have created on their own - hungry for power and not looking too closely at the consequences. There is so much more drama there than in "oooh! your ancient enemies gave you a gift of power and it turned out to be a trap! what a surprise!" - szilard, who has been feeling particularly bitter of late...

I really like the idea of Demon Summoning being something the Yozis got forced into as part of their surrender. I'd rather have Demon Summoning be something separate from Sorcery entirely. It's insult on injury. Not only were they beaten, but they were forced into something analogous to slavery. Exalts making Sorcery on their own seems incongruous to me. IIRC, they got everything from some one else. The first charms from the gods, craft and artifice from Autochton, and so on. Necromancy fits the bill better for that "hungry for power and not looking too closely at the consequences" thing. I have simply seen that kind of reason for something used to death from 80s cartoons I watched during my youth to find much drama in it. I really like more the idea that Exalts gradually drifted from responsible, just, and beneficial use of Sorcery in fulfilling their mandate to rule Creation (e.g. demons for public works projects) to something sick and twisted (e.g. Great Curse twisted Solar summons up Tentaculon, Second Circle Demon child of Lord Violatorus, to provide twisted entertainment for the evening and a steady supply of demon-blooded slave children). I dunno. It just seems to fit better with the Exalts taking Sorcery, making it their own, and then using it to increasingly sickening ends. ~Andrew02

I don't understand how Exalts making Sorcery on their own seems incongruous to you. Exalts are powerful entities in their own right. The most powerful of them are on par with the most powerful of the gods. The game stresses the empowerment of PCs (who are, by default, exalts) with the ability to change the world and do the impossible. You, however, find it incongrous that they actually had an original idea and were able to implement it? Am I missing something? -szilard

I am failing to make your leap from "great power" to "great innovation." Fuck, I am failing to make the leap from "power" to "intelligent use of said power." I just do not see how power logically forms the basis for the assertion you are making. "Exalts are so damned powerful, it just makes sense they would come up with Sorcery!" A little help, please? I also fail to see the reasoning for the conclusion that an Exalt with the ability to change the world and do the impossible is incontrovertible evidence that they made up everything they have access to from whole cloth. That empowerment seems more to do with the fact that all Exalts are given tools that permit them to reshape the world (e.g. long lifespan, ability to manipulate essence, greater resistance to disease, etc., etc.) better than any single mortal has. Maybe I just took it a little too much to heart that the Bull of the North is changing the world without discovering fossil fuels, mastering the power of the atom, or inventing digital watches, you know?

What I find incongruous is that the Exalted should discover the MOST DIFFICULT and MOST PUISSANT method of manipulating essence on their own when their own discoveries are few and far between. Did the Exalts discover charm use on their own? No. Did they discover Martial Arts charms on their own? No. Did they discover crafting and artifice on their own? No. Did they discover fighting in formations on their own? No. Astrology? Not so sure, but I am thinking no as well. The only thing I can think of that they created from whole cloth is Necromancy, and even then I would suspect that it would have been impossible without the extant knowledge of the three Circles of Sorcery. What I assert has jack shit to do with the Exalts as a whole riding around Creation on the short bus (as you have chosen to take it). The developments and refinements of what the Exalts were originally given show their originality. The Lunars fundamentally changed themselves following the Usurpation into the three Caste Deadly Beastmen we know them as in contemporary Age of Sorrows. That shows they could have their own ideas and implement them. That point is beyond dispute. But seriously, when the actual discoveries the Exalts have made on their own are so few and far between . . . discovering something as fucking big as Sorcery seems out of their league. Once they had, knew how to use it . . . then you get to see all of the unique and wonderful refinements and new spells and innovative uses. ~ Andrew02, who can be just as snarky

You are misinterpreting what I am saying. I wasn't trying to be snarky. I'm really confused. When you say discovering sorcery is too big for Exalts and out of their league, I have to ask whether we are talking about the same game. Would it be cool for the Exalted to have discovered sorcery? Would it make them more cool to have done so? I'd answer yes to both questions. Would it be cool for Exalts to have been spoon-fed nearly every ability that they have? Personally, I think not. That pretty much answers the issue for me. -szilard

Szilard, I do appreciate your feeling about the Yozis giving sorcery to Exalted ... I'm a little on the wire on the issue myself. When I was talking about it, I more meant that, if we're starting from the assumption that the Yozis gave sorcery to the Exalted, I like the demon-summoning being something they came up with rather than the Exalted coming up with it. But yes, it would be at least as cool if the Exalted had come up with it out of their own insane lust for power. Oh well ... it's all meta anyway. Andrew02, I totally understand the idea of having sorcery be separate from demon-summoning ... I actually kinda thought about it myself, but in the end I'm cool with just having sorcery be wholly separate from Charms.
~ Shataina

I always assumed Summoning and Sorcery were kinda seperate. I.e. since thaumaturgy can summon, actualy bringing the demon to creation isn't that hard. And the binding is more a feature of the primorial treaty of versaille than than sorcery. Sorcery just makes the process easier, and substitutes for wacky materials. Sorta like copying a document by hand vs xerox. The tool makes it alot simpler. I could very well be unusual in my view here though. -FlowsLikeBits, liked Exalts discovering sorcery themselves better too

I see your point. I myself always saw summoning and binding as different things -- i.e. the summoning is kind of incidental to the spell; it's the binding that's where the spell's power goes. I also require even sorcerers to have ingredients when they're summoning, though, although not necessarily as many.
~ Shataina

So how do you handle elementals? - szilard

Haven't thought about it, actually. I might just leave it the way it is, although I'm toying with the difficulty going up for summoning higher-Essence or simply more powerful elementals ... garda birds should not be as easy to summon as anything else. Alternatively, I'll bring it in line with these rules exactly. Elemental-summoning hasn't bothered me as much because elementals have a much easier time seeking retribution, I really enforce the whole "don't piss off the Celestial Hierarchy" thing, etc.
~ Shataina

I like the Idea, but does it really need mechanics? I handle Demon summoning with almost no hard rules except the ones from the core book (which sorely needs updating) and my players hardly ever summon demons unless the need is dire. Why you may ask. Well the reason is simple i like playing (NPCing anyway) Demons. Give them hell (pardon the pun)!! Give demons quirks befitting their nature not just mental one's either. Maybe a second circle demon has a deep seated psychological need to sleep on a bed of fresh corpses, another may lay in a death-like coma during a certain period of the day or night. I love the idea don't get me wrong. I just usually don't like many mechanics because the game can be predicted in certain ways (do X a number of times then you have to do Y or you're screwed). Also this way I can see what the story needs, and what the player intends before making a decision on the demons "habits". Another thing I do is treat the Demon summoning spells as the general knowledge of summoning a certain circle of demon meaning the ST picks the demon that actually answers the call. Yes , yes I know what you're saying "That blows" well yes, yes it does. So I provide ancient texts on how to summon particular types of demons, occult research to uncover the way to summon a particular type (usually difficult 3+( Circle of demon) with a TN of 8 or 9 depending on general usefulness). Of course i don't charge any XP for the research or the texts because that would just be mean, but it does take time. How much time? The speed of plot my friend (even though I try to be dramatic)! In short I think the Idea is awesome, but mechanics for something as nasty, and story rich as demon summoning doesn't really add as much as it takes away.

OTOH I do agree in the normal rules Demon summoning is way too easy (and don't get me started on the banishing crap). Doen't have nearly enough pit falls, and just generally (if used by-the-book) is anti-climatic. - Issaru sorry bout the speach from a Soap -box

Well, I did mention that some of these wants could be addressed by roleplaying demons well ... to answer your question, yes, I do think it needs mechanics. Mostly, though, it needs mechanics because, left to myself, I tend to be too nice of an ST ... which is why I design horribly nasty mechanics, because those will make me apply the punishments for my players that I would otherwise feel guilty about. <grin>
~ Shataina

Hey, how about a celestial variant which allows you to summon multiple of the same type of 1st circle demon, and set them all to a single task? - Morpheus

Hm. That might work ... one binding ritual exploiting the same weaknesses in multiple demons ... it would definitely put subsequent bindings' difficulties up by at least one, though. And I'd want them to have other similarities as well as being the same type, too ... like none of them can be unusual in any way, and maybe they're all particularly weak versions of their "type"? And the Limit Break thing would be tricky, although since I guess my version goes up by a fixed amount, they'd all go up by the same amount assuming they were doing the same task? But that sucks, because then all the demons break at once ... too mechanical. Still, I don't want the demons rolling Virtues to raise their Limit, and I'm not sure what else they'd roll ... Willpower maybe? I'll think about it.
~ Shataina

Maybe allow multiple types with one spell, but you have to specify the task ahead of time and what compensation the demons get. This would turn it into a mass bargin type thing. Thus if you wanted to, say quickly construct a seige tower next to a cities the walls, you could summon some puppeteers who get to play in some section of the city after you take it and some blood ape guards to who get guard this project and eat what they can catch. Or something. Honestly, it seems to me if the demons are all doing the same thing, and all hate it about the same amount, they would break at the same time. Narrativly you could do it as one breaks and leads a rebellion. Alternativly, you could give each demon a random, variable sized limit bar, which would allow one to add a fixed amount rather than rolling, but I'm not sure that's better. -FlowsLikeBits

Interesting idea on the rebellion thing, although I'm not sure if I want demons to be portrayed as, well, such team players. Still, it probably would work better if they did break around the same time ... that would make it a little more of a threat, since lots of demons able to do what they want is worse than one at a time. Re: the bargain thing, if I did make a spell that did this, I'd leave in the bargain option, same as in the old spell, but wouldn't require it. Still thinking about the rest of this; not sure how it'll go; I've been very busy. Maybe I'll have something at the end of the week.
~ Shataina