IsawaBrian/Celestines

Many things have begun to fray around the edges in the information from the main rules. For example, Lunars are no longer masters of illusion, and the Maiden of Battles is now possibly the Unconquered Sun's equal in strategy rather than personal combat. Another issue, of course, is the relative Essence of the Celestines-- described as in the 8-9 range in the book. Personally, I think that's a bit ridiculous at this point.

In my personal re-imagining of the universe, just like Essence 3 is the peak of mortal capability, Essence 10 is the peak of capability for most Gods, Third Circle Demons, Elementals, Exalts, Fae, and similar beings. The Primordials, the Unshaped, the Yozis, the Malfeans-- and the Celestial Incarna-- are beyond this limit. Like Gods, the Primoridals, Unshaped, Yozis, and Malfeans pass beyond this limit as a part of their essential nature. The Celestines are closer to Endowed god-blooded or Exalts; they have been raised above the common herd deliberately. Among other things, this transformation probably is one of the reasons that the Celestines can be in more than one place at a time-- it's similar to Primordial/Yozi-style soul-separation.

The Unconquered Sun is the first of these. Like the Exalts during the First Age, his place in the universe prior to the Usurpation was that of shining example, master, and defender of Creation. He was the head of the armies of the Primordials, and the being charged with the energisation of Creation-- specifically through Essence and Virtues. He was the exemplar of what it meant to be a god, the incarnate law that functioned over virtue and power. He was charged with keeping order amongst the deities and being the leader of the first line of defense, should the Primordials' unshaped siblings choose to assault Creation. He was endowed with part of the powers of all of the Primordials, and their personal representative in Creation. He was one of the first gods made, and quite probably the first to be utterly bound against harming a Primordial.

In many ways the Unconquered Sun was designed to be the Virtue Graces-- Sword, Ring, Staff, and Cup-- of Creation. He brought war upon the enemies of Creation, order to the world, enforced the rules of society, and healed the wounds of the soul as the bastion of purity. This is one of the reasons why his Chosen's shards were most adaptable to the perversion of the Malfeans; his nature is most like the Primordial's own. I'm not going to put a number on his Essence, but "really high" probably covers it.

This actually puts an interesting spin on Creation. The Unconquered Sun's Temperance-- his Ring-- has been clearly damaged by the Games of Divinity. Perhaps from the very moment that Sol Invictus decided to throw off the reign of the Primordials, even if the Primordials were evil as well as monopolizing the Games, part of his existence was weakened-- and with him, the incarnate law of Temperance was broken. More than just the neglect of the Celestines, this is why Creation is falling to corruption. The Celestial Bureaucracy, the degeneration of the First Age and now the Realm, the slow feeding of Fae on the borders-- as the Unconquered Sun's Ring/Temperance languishes, so too does that of existence.

Next, I'm going to cover the Maidens. (Luna's last, because she/he/it is unusual). As the entities responsible for the upkeep, promulgation, and maintenance of Creation's definition-- the Loom of Fate-- they necessarily had to be raised above the regular gods when created in order to govern their fates. There was, however, no reason to make them a potential threat individually, since they would function quite well in a group. No individual Maiden is the equal of the Unconquered Sun in pure power or expanse of control, but working together, they can equal his range of capabilities, and in their individual domains, they are quite competent and, as the Maiden of Battles is in strategy, can match the Unconquered Sun.

As a result, their Chosen, who gain power from each of the Maidens rather than a particular facet of their identity, have powerful-but-limited charms that, working in unison and with careful strategy can achieve great results, and in their particular area of specialty-- martial arts-- can equal the Solars. I'd say they're either the equivalent of low-end Celestials like Lunars or Alchemicals, or Terrestrials. Actually, "Terrestrial" mega-beings is probably the most fitting example; specialized, deliberately limited in power, and work very well in (a) their own areas and (b) a group.

If the Unconquered Sun is the Virtue Graces of Creation, the Maidens are the Virtues. Journeys is Willpower; she sets the pathway (channels) for the others, and yet, is formed out of their interaction. Serenity is Compassion, the empathy of the world. Battles is Valor, obviously. Secrets is, technically, Conviction-- the hidden steel of Creation-- but does not *fuel* Conviction, instead, hiding her nature behind Serenity. At last, Endings is Temperance, the evening and controlling of existence. Perhaps it is therefore fitting that Creation is dying from the dwindling of the Unconquered Sun's Temperance, bringing Creation closer to its End.

Luna, on the other hand, is probably closer to a God-Blooded who got an Endowment, raising her power unnaturally above her birth-station. I suspect that Luna's initial job was to manage the flux of Wyld into Creation, preventing Creation from becoming too stagnant while the Unconquered Sun and the Maidens managed the stability of existence. Powerful, but not on the level of the lords of reality.

However, for whatever reason, Gaia grew enamored of Luna-- and made her (I'm going to use a female pronoun in here although Luna is of course all pronouns and none) into her Heart Grace-- almost, but not quite, her fetich soul. In this way, Gaia bound Luna to herself, and safeguarded her Essence, dividing it between the fabric of Creation itself and the dynamic Luna.

As a result of carrying/being the Heart Grace of Gaia, Luna is incredibly powerful, the equal of the Unconquered Sun personally. However, similarly, because the power is not her own, Lunars are often not quite as mighty as Solars. Like Sidereals, when they tap into Luna's specific radiant nature-- shapeshifting-- they *can* equal the Solars, but it is difficult for them to achieve the correct results through their charms, because effectively, they're juggling two Essences.

The corruption of the Lunars in the Wyld, therefore, devolving their Castes, is somewhat indicative of the loss of Creation to the Wyld. As more Wyld overcomes the borders of reality-- impinges on the nature of Gaia's heart from the other direction, so, too, do the manifestations of Luna's mixed-soul become tainted by its power. (I've heard, but can't find a reference, that Lunars can learn some Fae charms. This would be a rather obvious reason why...) Fixing the Lunar Changing Caste may require physically re-conquering parts of Creation lost to the Wyld-- or perhaps, fixing the Caste may strengthen Luna and Gaia against the depredations of the Wyld.

Finally, the Five Elemental Dragons are not above Essence 10. In my imagining, they're precisely Essence 10, which is why it's so hard for DBs to go above Essence 7; to near or equal the sources of their power, they must transcend the nature of that power to a certain extent. The Five Elemental Dragons are probably the equivalent of 3rd-Circle souls for Gaia, like Autochthon's Ministers. The Elemental Dragon of Earth may very well be the other part of the Fetich-Soul of Gaia.

As a sort of extrapolation from this, I'd say that there has, to date, been no Exalt that's exceeded Essence 10. It might be possible, but it would require a being with the power of a Primordial to do the uplifting. On the other hand, since Exalts are already sort of uplifted, it may not be possible. On the other tentacle, though, you could think of it as a progression-- God-Blooded to God to Celestine; Heroic Mortal to Exalt to dot dot dot.

Comments

Firstly, I think that pushing any stat past 10 is an ill-considered decision in a White Wolf game. It renders the scale meaningless, and creates terrible stat escalation. Putting the Celestines in the Essence 8-9 range isn't ridiculously underpowered, it's saying how ridiculously rare essence levels that high should be. Exalted can surpass the gods. Capping Essence at 10 isn't going to make this any less likely or unlikely.

Second, I'm not sure if your discussion of the Celestines as Virtues and Graces of Creation is meant to be metaphor or taken literally. If it's metaphor, I think it's ill-considered because of the mechanical and conceptual baggage they carry. If it's literally, I have to argue strenuously against the idea that Primordials are simply hopped up Raksha, and the fundamental laws of Creation are simply emulations of laws of Chaos. If Luna is part of a Primordial, and Primordials are simply more powerful versions of Raksha, why would encroaching chaos damage Lunar Exalted?

Lastly, while Luna may be the Fetich-soul of Gaia (assuming Primordials have souls in the same manner as Yozi, and that Yozi souls aren't a result of the twisting of their nature)(and one begins to wonder why all the Celestines aren't Primordial souls...)), I'm not comfortable with the Elemental Dragons also being Primordial-Souls. Again, why aren't all the Celestines just souls, then?

-- Dei

Why would the Primordials want their souls to be entangled in the management of Creation? They might as well just manage Creation themselves because the souls of a Primordial are that Primordial. Enter the Celestines. -- OhJames

Iirc, there is at least one Exalt who exceeds Essence 10, but she's in the scenario section of the Alchemicals splat (and therefore may not quite count). That would be Lissome Avid Engineer, who -- depending on ST decision -- may rise to Essence 16 after absorbing the essence fields in the gemfields of New Kadar (Gem) .. -- Taichara

That's been clarified. it was a misprint, and should have been set at 10. - Scrollreader

Damn  :) Still, it's arguably one-and-a-half misprints; the intital entry makes the statement that "Effectively she is an Essence 10 Alchemical, but she could grow even larger" (italics mine). Even if the "Essence 16" itself was a typo, the option to go higher still appears to be there ... the powers that be have simply chosen not to commit to a number.  :) -- Taichara

Neph's relevant quote is here: Thus_Spake_Zaranephilpal/AlchemicalSizes . Basically, the authors of the other sections didn't have access to his work, and there was a goof. He specifically states 10 is the cap. -- IsawaBrian

*reads* Aha! I hereupon take up the mallet of enlightenment, and apply it to myself vigorously  :) That makes a few things make considerably more sense now ... -- Taichara, who really needs to get that Megaman X series off the ground

First and Forsaken Lion has Essence 10. Mask of Winters has Essence 8 in the very Core Book. The Golden Lord has Essence 8, and Ahlat has Essence 7, and both these gods are of the lesser sort that reside in Creation. Putting the Celestines in the Essence 8 to 9 range seems ridiculous in light of the potency of the Deathlords. Unless the Mask of Winters and First and Forsaken Lion are supposed to have more supernatural power than the Celestines. ~ Andrew02

'Drew02, I think it makes a statement that essence 8-10 is pretty much the range of 'End Bosses'... It's possible that the First and Forsaken Lion has essence 10, while the Unconquered Sun has 8, 9, or 10... does it REALLY matter, how much essence dots they have? Save that it's alot? And that they have all sorts of nasty tricks and charms and effects up their sleeves?

I believe GCG has noted that a Perfect Circle of Solars at 500XP+ can punk the UcS in a fight (keyword, just the UcS). I don't see why exalts or their long dead echoes (empowered by the Neverborn) can't match if not exced the Celestial Incarna, it just takes ALOT of time and effort of training up, while the UcS plays his games and stays the same. ~ Haku

We should also remember that all Essence is not created equally. Deathlords have -way- larger essence pools then the equivalent level Solar. So too, I would assume, do the Greater Gods. It would be logical then to assume that the power scale of certain entities would be different. Sol Inviticus might "only" have Essence 10 but his Essence 10 is a great deal different then MY essence 10 because he's the Unconquered Sun. It doesn't make much sense mechanically but it sort of does thematically. Incidentially, I thourally enjoy IsawaBrian's take on the Celestials. - Halloween

"does it REALLY matter, how much essence dots they have?"

Of course not. Nothing in a game REALLY matters. In Exalted, nothing REALLY matters in its own little world because I am expected to utilize the Golden Rule and keep my complaints to myself. If the Unconquered Sun had explicit stats, it wouldn't REALLY matter because I could Golden Rule it to whatever I like (and get "zinged," apparently, if I openly suggest that the Celestines should have an ungodly high Essence score). It only matters insofar as I care that the Unconquered Sun should be a great big Olympian god.

I can see Halloween's case quite well, which easily debunks Dei's assertion that moving the Essence scale in any fashion above 10 ruins the scale. It's already ruined because Essence isn't equal across the board, or even in general groups. An Essence 3 Terrestrial Exalt is not the equal of an Essence 3 Celestial, ad nauseam. The scale's already busted and meaningless. ~ Andrew02

'Drew02, I didn't mean it that way. But since you bought up "the Unconquered Sun should be a great big Olympian god", I should note that said Olympian gods weren't all mighty. Ares got punked in the trojan war. Totally unexpected, and hideously embaressing. But it's possible. So, yes... the UcS has 9 dots of essence (for instance), and your Solar bad-ass has 10 dots... that still means jack when said Sun-god pops out his beat-down prana and makes your solar his bitch.

See, you're also not factoring in that he may have ALOT of charms, combos and effects that your lil solar doesn't know about or isn't prepared for. No one has ACTUALLY seen Sol Invictis in one on one combat, so we don't know how buffed he REALLY is. Or how much of his reputation is based on the fact that he's Unconquered, until suddenly he's not Unconquered. ~ Haku

I know you didn't, Haku. I still love you, baby.

Ares is a creep, and Diomedes had Athena (who always had Ares' number) backing him up. In Exalted terms, that'd probably be Ahlat getting his ass kicked by a heroic mortal with Mars doing grand and wonderful things for the mortal and bad things for Ahlat (e.g. give Ahlat reason to wonder why he is constantly botching to hit rolls with his bow that never misses . . . or hits alot. I forget which). Zeus is a little better. When he got punked, it wasn't for lack of power. Someone just managed to do something especially wily and wrath-worthy. That's better for what I mean about the Unconquered Sun. It is kind of weird that he should be the Unconquered Sun . . . since it does not seem like there would be anything around that's out to conquer him or situations where he could be conquered. ~ Andrew02, who expects some Jakk Beyan response to the Unconquered Sun getting conquered

Sorry about the delay on answering here, it's been a week. Most of my defenses have, it seems, already been written. I'd like to note that the 10-max has been broken already, in attributes at least, so I see it as less of a scale max and more of a "normal enhanced maximum" that can be superceded. Thinking of the various Celestines as Graces is semi-literal, yes. I treat the Primordials as being highly, *highly* mutated versions of Wyld-folk. Not precisely like the Fae, no, but with enough similarlities that the terminology can be used. -- IsawaBrian