Discussions/ImmaculateMAPowerLevel

It might be a lack of experence running them ingame but Immatriculate MA don't seems any more powerful than the normal MA too me.
Any comments on this? -Trueform

Compared to normal, Celestial level Martial Arts, they are arguably a little flat out weaker. However, the Immaculate MAs also have the coolest Signature Weapons (at least, until Violet Bier allowed for Daiklaives) and THEY CAN WEAR ARMOR. Further, compare the Immaculate Style to the Terrestrial Style- see the jump in power now? - DS

I have compared the Immaculate Style to the Terrestrial Style, and am not very impressed at all. Am i missing something. The styles weapons abilities are cool. And the Violet Bier are only accessable at pretty high essence levels. -Trueform

The Violet Bier? Are you confusing that with a secret style? VBoS isn't any harder to get than Snake. The power inherent in the Immaculate Styles is that of elemental harmony - they work very, very well for Dragonbloods, particularly those that combine them with secular Charms (Wood Dragon combined with secular Archery, though it isn't by-the-book legal, is simply amazing). - willows

Yes I mixed ut VBoS with the secret styles. I also see that the imm charms are powerful with other charms. But in and of themself they don't seem to be any more powerfull than the normal dragon blooded MA. I can not find anywhere stating that Imm MA can be used with armor. And all maks are not using armor anyway.

It's no where explicitly stated, but no Immaculate MA has an enumerated Armor restriction, unlike every other MA style- which have eitehr armor restrictions on some of the higher end Charms (Typically the Form and some others) or a total Armor restriction. Furthermore, Ms. Borgstrom has explicitly spelled out that the Immaculate MAs being able to use armor was something the Sidereal did to make up for the lil Draggies being so much softer and squishier.

As to the other complaint- I don't know what to say. I look at the Five Dragons Style and compare it to Water Dragon Style- both are soak oriented styles. The Water Dragon Style is simply better on a per-Charm basis. It's arguable on a per-experience basis, though. - Trueform

Actually, I believe Air Dragon Form and Fire Dragon Form are both incompatible with armor. Don't have my DB book with me at work today, though, so I can't check. Even so, if the rest of the Charms in those styles are compatible with armor (and I believe they are), that makes a big difference from other MA styles. And BTW, willows, mixing secular with Immaculate Charms is only by-the-book illegal for a starting char. --MetalFatigue

I was talking about mixing Charms in Combos. So, so illegal. - willows

Ah. OK. (Also, I just checked the DB book, and Fire Dragon Form is the only Immaculate Form Charm that prohibits armor--Air Dragon Form allows it.) --MF

Immaculate MA not powerful? Have you looked at Soul Marking in Wood form? Disgustingly powerful archery charm. Automatic success on following Archery attacks, that STACK. - EJGRgunner

I think the main thing that the Dragon Styles have over the animal or color styles, I think, si that Terrestrials do things that are flat-out broken with them no one else can do, IMHO. This is due to the inherent Reflexives trick that Terrestrials get. For example, Fire Dragon Form seems rather weak, utnil you realize that by spending a mote, the Terrestrial can build a Dodge pool from scratch using Flickering Candle Meditation and get four or five auto-successes on the subsequent dodge, in addition to her actual dice bought. And she can still use her more offensive Charms. Or use the reroller for Initiative and the reroller for Accuracy without comboing. Or raising the difficulty to be hit and still use something to cause someone's Essence to expldoe, ect.

That'st he main thing they got, comboing the uncomboable. This also goes into other things. Hurricane Combat Method, for example, flat-out destroys things with the additional bonuses Terrestrials get with chakrams AND the fact that they can.

The thing is these tricks are often times just not possible. And these sick synergies within the styles that only Terrestrials can use I find to be the strength. Its just that only the weakest of the Choosen can utilize the true power of these Styles.

Or something. Stuff. Blaque

Yes, these styles are were built by the Sidereals to be powerful for Terrestrials.

Blaque, I don't think you can add the extra successes from Fire Dragon form to your Flickering Candle Meditation roll? I think that is what is meant when it talks about the bonus not being used reflexively. But I don't really expect to reach consensus on that here, similar issues have been argued to death! ^_^ -- BrokenShade

I disagree regarding Fire Dragon Form, BrokenShade. The successes can't be used reflexively - that is, they don't apply reflexively in the way that the dodge bonus from Air Dragon Form does - but they do add to any dodge attempt the character makes. Using Flickering Candle Meditation to build a reflexive dodge, in my humble opinion, constitutes a dodge attempt, and is accordingly compatible with Fire Dragon Form's bonus. I haven't decided yet, though, if Fire Dragon Form's bonus successes can be counted towards the roll required for Safety Among Enemies. I'm still not sure if SAE's dodge roll is a dodge attempt or an incidental use of the Dex + Dodge pool for a Charm effect, but I prefer the latter.

Now, regarding the comparison between Five-Dragon (the Terrestrial-level MA in the DB book) and the Immaculate MAs. Charm-by-Charm, the Immaculate MAs are a great deal more potent. However, I'm not entirely sure how they compare if you take into account the higher XP cost of IMAs, as I've not compared them in that context in great detail. Just off the cuff, though (and with my books all a six-hour drive away), I'd guess that the IMAs remain definitely more powerful, but the gap is less blatant when the XP costs are considered. - David.

According to the original Exalted Errata (the one for the main book) SAE is a 'special defense' effect, and defensive dice-adders don't help it.
-- Darloth

That's news to me. None of the Terrestrial Charms were ever in the Exalted errata for the main book. And the DB Errata is the only version we've ever gotten.

Stuff. Blaque

I definitelely think that effects such as the Fire Dragon Form and Blade of the Battle Maiden, which assist rolls for a scene and do not specify whether they can build a pool from 0 should not be used to benefit the effects of normal dice adders. The dice adders don't actually provide an action, in my opinion, they just benefit an action, whether or not it has a dice pool, and it's overpowered. - Morpheus

Either I misunderstand you, Morpheus, or you misunderstand the debate over the use of Fire Dragon Form's bonus dodge successes. They definitely cannot be used reflexively in the way that dice bought with Flickering Candle Meditation can. The debate is over whether or not dodge actions created reflexively with Charms like Reed in the Wind or Flickering Candle Meditation (both of which can build dodge actions from scratch) can enjoy the bonus provided by Fire Dragon Form. - David.