Difference between revisions of "FixTheSolarCharmTrees/SevenShadowEvasion"

Revision as of 04:53, 4 February 2005

BrokenShade's Version

As per the original, but remove the part about having to activate the Charm before your opponent makes the attack roll.

Blaque's Version

Keep the "declare before the attack roll" part (can be used after Charms and that are used though), and just lower the cost to three motes, rather then six.

Mask of Winter's Version

As per original, but remove the part about having to activate it before your opponent makes the attack roll, and change the cost to 3 motes.

Vote Tally

Original Version

1. Morpheus
2. Moxiane

BrokenShade's Version

1. BrokenShade
2. Delta_I
3. David.
4. notsoangrydave
5. willows
6. MetalFatigue
7. SilverMeerKat
8. Domon
9. Clebo
10. Darloth - But see comment below
11. Grandmasta

Blaque's Version

1. Blaque
2. Lipperman

Mask of Winter's Version

1. Mask of Winters
2. Darloth - But see comment below, it'll explain the doublevote somewhat.

Comments

I agree, that's just how I use it. It's too unwieldy otherwise.

Agreeing here as well. I'd rather know whether or not the attack si worth spending six motes of Essence before having to roll for this Charm. Though, whether or not its overpowered I'd have to see. Maybe I can test using Impeding the Flow on my current Sidereal character or something. Stuff. \\ -- Blaque

Yet another agreement. I personally think that Seven Shadow Evasion's ineffectiveness against undodgeable attacks coupled with the stipulation that it must be declared before the attack roll really neuters the Charm, but the only one of those I'd really want to change is the declaration issue. On a side note that 7SE reminds me of, how costly or rare should Charms that are perfect in application but not in effect be? That is, Charms that allow you to attempt to block the unblockable, but do not create a perfect block? (I believe FourWillowsWeeping may have written such a Charm in his Infernal Dodge stuff, but I can't recall at the moment.) - David.\\

me, too. i think i'll use the charm that way. now, looking at Shadow Over Water compared with the melee defensive charms, do you think that also should be applied to SOW and Reed in the Wind? it seems like Dodge is really getting hosed v. melee defense. i'll also go over this in the other charm arguments, where it's more applicable and appropriate. - notsoangrydave

I did, in fact, write such a Charm. If I recall, I put a three-mote surcharge on it over a normal reflex dodge. Applicability, in my opinion, is cheaper than perfection. - willows

See, I just think that reflexive defenses should have to be used before the attack roll has been made. It feels more dramatic and realistic. But that's just me. - Morpheus

Morpheus, the problem with this is that there is no way to mechanically handle dice adders to defence until you know how powerful the attack will be. Should you add one dice or many. And remember, we have been told that defence is supposed to be better than attack, which it isn't if you don't know how good the attack is before you have to defend. -- BrokenShade

I always figured that this issue was handled by dice-adder Charms for defence (at least in the case of Solars) being flat-out cheaper than offensive dice-adders. 1m/2d for the Dodge and Melee dice-adders, and 2m for the full dice-pool Charms - that's pretty damned cheap. I've always run it with requiring you to declare your defence before you know how big the attack is going to be. - Moxiane

It works for me for the players to have to decide how many dice to add while only guessing the force of the incoming blow. I let people know how many times their opponent is splitting their dice pools and know the number of dice that have been used on previous attacks, and sense charm use. This usually suffices to warn players if they need to use a lot of reed in the wind. - Morpheus

I like the original version on 7SE, but not on reed in the wind, and shadow over water. I think there is an intricate relation between the three major defenses in Solar charms; parry, dodge, and soak. Should BrokenShade's version be used, dodge would become too powerful. I want my PC Solars to learn all three defenses to feel safe, not only dodge, which would be very alluring with this change. - Clebo

I just looked through the other perfects in the game to be honest, and I am a bit more strongly of the opinion that SSE should be able to be used after they rolled. Right now, Impeding the Flow, Serenity in Blood, Heavenly Guardian Defense, Flowing Body Evasion, and Incomparable Sentinal Stance all can seeminlgy be invoked any time. Note that all of these except Flowing Body Evasion are Melee, true. But frankly, Impeding the Flow is basically a Melee Seven Shadows Evasion, and costs half as much.

Right now, Heavenly Guardian Defense has two things up on Seven Shadows Evasion. It parries anything with a component the weapon can hit, whether it can parry or not, and can be used any time during the attack, even after it is rolled. If anything, SSE should atleast be cheaper for what it does. That one willpower point seems tomake up most of the cost. Tacking three more motes onto the non-applicable, sometimes not-needed version is a bit much.

This has sorta come up in a mixed game, where the Solar dodger found out how much shafted we got in this department.

And stuff. Blah. Blaque

I see parry as being inherently better than dodge, since weapons add to your pool. I don't think parry Charms need to blow dodge Charms out of the water in addition to that. I'm with BrokenShade. - SilverMeerKat

The thing is though, a character just doesn't know how hard it's gonna be to defend against an attack. You just don't.\\ I often gloss over balance in the name of style and/or practicality.\\ I don't know over-much about DBs or Abyssals or Sidereals or Infernals or Alchemicals, but I don't think ANYONE should be able to use ANY defensive charm after an attack roll is made. Defense is supposed to be better, but not even reflexives are that fast.\\ ~*~Braydz~*~

Someone keeps erasing my votes =*( \\ Actually, I disagree with Braydz here. I think that you can definitely tell just before it hits you about how good an attacks is. My reasoning for this is essentially that, if someone fails at an attack and just misses you, you're going to know that they're not going to hit you before they don't hit you. This doesn't give you enough time to declare defensive actions, but judging from how fast "reflexive" really seems to be (fast enough that you could make an unlimited number of parries in a round with Golden Essence Block), it definitely should give you enough time to use a defensive Charm once you know that an attack isn't going to go wide. - SilverMeerKat

i like your reasoning here, Braydz , and i agree that all defensive charms should be held to the same standards. i just flop the other way, that's all. --notsoangrydave

I've changed my mind. Dodge is a specialist ability, whereas Melee is multipurpose. Hence, dodge should be a bit more powerful. Also, I've found the notion to ask the players whether they intend to use 7SE or not before I roll as something irritating. By giving the players many choices, the speed of the game is slowed down. Furthermore, the comparison with Impeding the Flow is good, and implies that there is something fishy. 7SE is a semi-perfect defense, whereas Impeding the Flow is "not a perfect defense". I really wonder what the difference is. Finally, this gives charm constructers good advice about costs for semi-perfect attacks; undodgeable attacks should cost more than 6 motes, or include WP, and unblockable attacks should cost a WP, and more than 3 motes. Thus, if you don't like those to be too expensive, perhaps the cost of 7SE should be lowered? -Clebo

I have proposed changing it to 3 motes and not having to declare it before you opponent makes his attack roll. This puts it in better balance with charms like Impeding the Flow and the Abyssal dodge charms which not only perfectly dodge but also teleport you out of harm's way. --Mask of Winters

In my opinion 3 is a bit too low... especially as Solar's tend to have expensive but effective charms. How about 4 or 5? (I don't think it's worth me adding an entire extra version, as I otherwise agree with BrokenShade / Mask of Winters )
- Darloth