Difference between revisions of "TonyC/StoneMonkey"
From Exalted - Unofficial Wiki
(*Ehn, sure.) |
m (Script: fix links messed up in conversion) |
||
| (4 intermediate revisions by 2 users not shown) | |||
| Line 11: | Line 11: | ||
Anima: King Kong<br> | Anima: King Kong<br> | ||
Quote: Booyah! I'm the greatest! | Quote: Booyah! I'm the greatest! | ||
| + | |||
| + | [[TonyC/StoneMonkeyAnalysis]] | ||
== Stone Monkey as starting character == | == Stone Monkey as starting character == | ||
| Line 115: | Line 117: | ||
== Comments == | == Comments == | ||
| − | /StoneMonkeyOldComments | + | [[TonyC/StoneMonkeyOldComments]] |
I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to <i>abandon</i> his tetsubo just to make a barehanded attack; he can just hang on to his Buick-sized beatstick in his offhand while engaging in fisticuffs. - braincraft | I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to <i>abandon</i> his tetsubo just to make a barehanded attack; he can just hang on to his Buick-sized beatstick in his offhand while engaging in fisticuffs. - braincraft | ||
| Line 123: | Line 125: | ||
:The difficulty of the Strength + MA increases to 5, but it can be done. The real problem is that you can't use a perfect defense with WBDT, since it's a full-pool reflexive all by itself. (Also, please sign your comments?) - [[Kurulham]] | :The difficulty of the Strength + MA increases to 5, but it can be done. The real problem is that you can't use a perfect defense with WBDT, since it's a full-pool reflexive all by itself. (Also, please sign your comments?) - [[Kurulham]] | ||
| − | ::The Strength + MA difficulty 5 roll is easy. Stone Monkey has 24 dice in that pool. Whether you can use perfect defense with WBDT is iffy but I believe it does. For a combined cost of 10m+2wp plus the combo costs, it really isn't game-breaking. Compare with a combo of, say, Seven Shadow Evasion and Leaping Dodge Method (2 dodge charms, but different benefits). Also compare with Angry Predator Frenzy Style plus Five-Fold Bulwark Stance. APFS gives counterattacks plus 2 actions/turn either or both could be used for full dodge or/and parry, FFBS persistent parry. Nobody requires that to counter-attack, the Tiger martial artist cannot use the parries granted by FFBS and must instead abort one of the action to a full parry. - TonyC | + | ::The Strength + MA difficulty 5 roll is easy. Stone Monkey has 24 dice in that pool. Whether you can use perfect defense with WBDT is iffy but I believe it does. For a combined cost of 10m+2wp plus the combo costs, it really isn't game-breaking. Compare with a combo of, say, Seven Shadow Evasion and Leaping Dodge Method (2 dodge charms, but different benefits). Also compare with Angry Predator Frenzy Style plus Five-Fold Bulwark Stance. APFS gives counterattacks plus 2 actions/turn either or both could be used for full dodge or/and parry, FFBS persistent parry. Nobody requires that to counter-attack, the Tiger martial artist cannot use the parries granted by FFBS and must instead abort one of the action to a full parry. - [[TonyC]] |
| − | :::Players Guide quite clearly states that you can only parry a given attack once. The question then becomes whether or not HGD, instead of <i>providing</i> a parry, can <i>enhance</i> a parry gained by other means - for example, WBDT. That's a question for FrivYeti, and it is ambiguous; I'd be inclined to disallow it, and that inclination is strengthened by the fact that the Charms are of different Abilities - never mind that they're both reflexive. If WBDT or HGD were supplemental, I wouldn't say anything; as it is, I know what I'd do if it were my decision, but it isn't. (Also, I really really REALLY don't like WBDT breaking artifacts. But again, that's just me.) If Friv allows it, though, it's a damn good idea. - [[Kurulham]] | + | :::Players Guide quite clearly states that you can only parry a given attack once. The question then becomes whether or not HGD, instead of <i>providing</i> a parry, can <i>enhance</i> a parry gained by other means - for example, WBDT. That's a question for [[FrivYeti]], and it is ambiguous; I'd be inclined to disallow it, and that inclination is strengthened by the fact that the Charms are of different Abilities - never mind that they're both reflexive. If WBDT or HGD were supplemental, I wouldn't say anything; as it is, I know what I'd do if it were my decision, but it isn't. (Also, I really really REALLY don't like WBDT breaking artifacts. But again, that's just me.) If Friv allows it, though, it's a damn good idea. - [[Kurulham]] |
:::You can't use both HGD and WBDT against the same attack - both are parries, and you can only parry an attack once. The comparison of a Combo of Seven Shadow Evasion and Leaping Dodge isn't relevant - Leaping Dodge Technique isn't a dodge, it modifies a dodge. The comparison of APFS and FFBS is also irrelevant because the counterattacks are optional, as is what the Tiger stylist chooses to do with the extra action. - [[David.]] | :::You can't use both HGD and WBDT against the same attack - both are parries, and you can only parry an attack once. The comparison of a Combo of Seven Shadow Evasion and Leaping Dodge isn't relevant - Leaping Dodge Technique isn't a dodge, it modifies a dodge. The comparison of APFS and FFBS is also irrelevant because the counterattacks are optional, as is what the Tiger stylist chooses to do with the extra action. - [[David.]] | ||
| − | ::::I had a longish reply but then I realized that my position could be simplified as this: You two see WBDT and HGD and see (parry + weapon breaking) and (parry). The parentheses are intentional, btw. You two see each charm as a concrete unit and one must override the other. I see WBDT and see parry + weapon breaking and HGD and see a parry. The lack of parentheses is also intentional. So I see WBDT and go "hey, normal parry" and see nothing wrong plugging HGD into the normal parry part (call it enhancing or whatever, the logic's the same) and getting HGD + weapon breaking out of the combo. I mean, it's a normal parry. Normal parries get manipulated with charms. Dice-adder, dice subtractor, full-pool parry, perfects, target number modifier, difficulty modifier, the whole works. A parry that can't be manipulated with charms is the abnormal one in Exalted. Since I don't see them as concrete units that must override one another, I see nothing wrong compositing them. - TonyC | + | ::::I had a longish reply but then I realized that my position could be simplified as this: You two see WBDT and HGD and see (parry + weapon breaking) and (parry). The parentheses are intentional, btw. You two see each charm as a concrete unit and one must override the other. I see WBDT and see parry + weapon breaking and HGD and see a parry. The lack of parentheses is also intentional. So I see WBDT and go "hey, normal parry" and see nothing wrong plugging HGD into the normal parry part (call it enhancing or whatever, the logic's the same) and getting HGD + weapon breaking out of the combo. I mean, it's a normal parry. Normal parries get manipulated with charms. Dice-adder, dice subtractor, full-pool parry, perfects, target number modifier, difficulty modifier, the whole works. A parry that can't be manipulated with charms is the abnormal one in Exalted. Since I don't see them as concrete units that must override one another, I see nothing wrong compositing them. - [[TonyC]] |
| − | ::::TonyC, how do you look at DSD vs HGD? DSD gives you a full parry from nothing, but it can't be stacked with another existing parry. You can't use your dice action to parry and then modify it with DSD. Since HGD doesn't rely on an existing parry to function, there's no reason to modify a parry granted from a dice action with it. Looking at it this way, HGD provides a parry, it doesn't modify one, same as DSD.- [[Ambisinister]] | + | ::::[[TonyC]], how do you look at DSD vs HGD? DSD gives you a full parry from nothing, but it can't be stacked with another existing parry. You can't use your dice action to parry and then modify it with DSD. Since HGD doesn't rely on an existing parry to function, there's no reason to modify a parry granted from a dice action with it. Looking at it this way, HGD provides a parry, it doesn't modify one, same as DSD.- [[Ambisinister]] |
| − | :::::Okay, look, I understand completely what you are trying to say. I just don't agree with it. Let me try explaining it a different way. Let's say Charm 1 does X + Z. Charm 2 does X Prime, which is like X, only better. The rule says you can only have one X, either the normal X or the superior X Prime. You guys say that since you can only have one X, then when you combo Charm 1 and Charm 2, you get either (X + Z) or X Prime. I say that the way charms work if that when you combo Charm 1 and Charm 2, you get X Prime + Z. You say "but you can't have X twice!" Well, as far as I can tell, I don't. I only have X Prime. I'm not doing X + X Prime + Z. - TonyC | + | :::::Okay, look, I understand completely what you are trying to say. I just don't agree with it. Let me try explaining it a different way. Let's say Charm 1 does X + Z. Charm 2 does X Prime, which is like X, only better. The rule says you can only have one X, either the normal X or the superior X Prime. You guys say that since you can only have one X, then when you combo Charm 1 and Charm 2, you get either (X + Z) or X Prime. I say that the way charms work if that when you combo Charm 1 and Charm 2, you get X Prime + Z. You say "but you can't have X twice!" Well, as far as I can tell, I don't. I only have X Prime. I'm not doing X + X Prime + Z. - [[TonyC]] |
| − | ::::: How about this in TonyC's favor though: Suppose you're not in PC, and lose init. You declare that you'll be splitting your die pools 5 ways, for 5 parries. Your opponent declares a whole bunch of attacks (6), and because you're a good guy, you declare that you'll be activating your "I don't die" combo, one charm of which is FFBS. This way, you'll be able to parry the man effectively. On the 6th attack, much to your annoyance, your opponent declares a perfect attack, such as "Unstoppable Death Causing Technique". Now, that's bad. Luckily, you <i>also</i> have HGD in your combo. You think "Oh, it's no big deal. I'm 3m + 1WP from safety". Sadly, your ST informs you that HGD provides a parry, and doesn't supplement one, and since you've already got a parry, you're out of luck. You die. After all, it <i>is</i> the "Unstoppable Death Causing Technique". I'm not saying this is 100% applicable to the situation we're in now, but it points out that HGD is fairly 'trumping' in that even if you've got a parry already, you can HGD. - GregLink, continuing.... | + | ::::: How about this in [[TonyC]]'s favor though: Suppose you're not in PC, and lose init. You declare that you'll be splitting your die pools 5 ways, for 5 parries. Your opponent declares a whole bunch of attacks (6), and because you're a good guy, you declare that you'll be activating your "I don't die" combo, one charm of which is FFBS. This way, you'll be able to parry the man effectively. On the 6th attack, much to your annoyance, your opponent declares a perfect attack, such as "Unstoppable Death Causing Technique". Now, that's bad. Luckily, you <i>also</i> have HGD in your combo. You think "Oh, it's no big deal. I'm 3m + 1WP from safety". Sadly, your ST informs you that HGD provides a parry, and doesn't supplement one, and since you've already got a parry, you're out of luck. You die. After all, it <i>is</i> the "Unstoppable Death Causing Technique". I'm not saying this is 100% applicable to the situation we're in now, but it points out that HGD is fairly 'trumping' in that even if you've got a parry already, you can HGD. - [[GregLink]], continuing.... |
::::::That's not how a situation like that works. We'll say you've already invoked FFBS, and then in response to the Combo, you use HGD. You have to choose <i>either</i> FFBS or HGD to parry the attack, you can't use both. Using HGD means you forego any parry-based benefits from FFBS (which, in this example, is just the parry, nothing else). In your example, HGD is not supplementing a parry, it's providing one. If you had split your pool for defense, you could still use HGD, and you also would not expend the split-action you had reserved to defend yourself. Choosing one instant parry over another means that you forego the effects of the instant parry you chose not to use. HGD isn't trumping anything here (other than the attack it's defending against, of course), you're choosing it and foregoing the other. - [[David.]] | ::::::That's not how a situation like that works. We'll say you've already invoked FFBS, and then in response to the Combo, you use HGD. You have to choose <i>either</i> FFBS or HGD to parry the attack, you can't use both. Using HGD means you forego any parry-based benefits from FFBS (which, in this example, is just the parry, nothing else). In your example, HGD is not supplementing a parry, it's providing one. If you had split your pool for defense, you could still use HGD, and you also would not expend the split-action you had reserved to defend yourself. Choosing one instant parry over another means that you forego the effects of the instant parry you chose not to use. HGD isn't trumping anything here (other than the attack it's defending against, of course), you're choosing it and foregoing the other. - [[David.]] | ||
| − | :::::More to the point, imagine an evil little Essence 5 brawl charm, of type 'reflexive' or perhaps 'supplemental' that notes "After an attack has been declared, and the defense rolled, but before damage is applied, this charm may be activated. It converts said attack to perfect." In such a situation, being able to apply HGD immediately is a requirement. Now, that charm isn't canon, but one can easily see how such a 'make an attack perfect after it would've normally failed' charm is both very Solar, and very reasonable. Given that such a charm might exist, the ability to HGD after a normal parry is key. - GregLink, in favor of TonyC | + | :::::More to the point, imagine an evil little Essence 5 brawl charm, of type 'reflexive' or perhaps 'supplemental' that notes "After an attack has been declared, and the defense rolled, but before damage is applied, this charm may be activated. It converts said attack to perfect." In such a situation, being able to apply HGD immediately is a requirement. Now, that charm isn't canon, but one can easily see how such a 'make an attack perfect after it would've normally failed' charm is both very Solar, and very reasonable. Given that such a charm might exist, the ability to HGD after a normal parry is key. - [[GregLink]], in favor of [[TonyC]] |
| − | ::::GregLink, using your example, there's nothing preventing the victimized solar in question from using HGD. Instead of using his last parry, he reflexively activates HGD. He's not required to use his parries from die actions or his parries from FFBS. As for your second comment, if you're supposing the existence of charms, there's nothing stopping me from proposing a charm that could counter your charm. We could both make up charms that neatly circumvent the other's argument all day long and still not resolve anything. (Although I do like your brawl charm!)- [[Ambisinister]] | + | ::::[[GregLink]], using your example, there's nothing preventing the victimized solar in question from using HGD. Instead of using his last parry, he reflexively activates HGD. He's not required to use his parries from die actions or his parries from FFBS. As for your second comment, if you're supposing the existence of charms, there's nothing stopping me from proposing a charm that could counter your charm. We could both make up charms that neatly circumvent the other's argument all day long and still not resolve anything. (Although I do like your brawl charm!)- [[Ambisinister]] |
::::::First off, I have to say that I find a Charm which makes an attack unblockable after it's already been blocked to be highly questionable, and possibly broken, for precisely this reason. ::grins:: Second, I'm not sure your FFBS example applies, because you can HGD ''instead of'' your normal parry, as [[Ambisinister]] noted. That's fine. I mean, FFBS doesn't specifically note that you ''have'' to use your persistent parry, just that you ''can''. But you're not also doing your normal parry - you're just HGDing instead, so you don't get any special effects that come with that parry. Now, FFBS doesn't give you any special effects with the parry, but there are other parry Charms which do. Like, for example, WBDT. | ::::::First off, I have to say that I find a Charm which makes an attack unblockable after it's already been blocked to be highly questionable, and possibly broken, for precisely this reason. ::grins:: Second, I'm not sure your FFBS example applies, because you can HGD ''instead of'' your normal parry, as [[Ambisinister]] noted. That's fine. I mean, FFBS doesn't specifically note that you ''have'' to use your persistent parry, just that you ''can''. But you're not also doing your normal parry - you're just HGDing instead, so you don't get any special effects that come with that parry. Now, FFBS doesn't give you any special effects with the parry, but there are other parry Charms which do. Like, for example, WBDT. | ||
| Line 147: | Line 149: | ||
::::::I was about to quote the text of WBDT, but then I remembered that the Charm text has been errata'd and the wording left rather unspecific, so I guess I won't. I'll just sum up my viewpoint: if you have access to two separate parries, you may choose one; by choosing that one, you forego all special effects of the other. If you HGD when you have FFBS up, you forego your FFBS parry in favor of HGD. If you have the option of either WBDTing or HGDing, you can do one or the other against a given attack - and you can do one against one attack and the other against another, if you have them in a Combo - but you can't turn the WBDT parry into a perfect defense. This is the way I'd play it in my game if it ever came up... but ultimately this isn't my call. ::grins:: - [[Kurulham]] with his half crown | ::::::I was about to quote the text of WBDT, but then I remembered that the Charm text has been errata'd and the wording left rather unspecific, so I guess I won't. I'll just sum up my viewpoint: if you have access to two separate parries, you may choose one; by choosing that one, you forego all special effects of the other. If you HGD when you have FFBS up, you forego your FFBS parry in favor of HGD. If you have the option of either WBDTing or HGDing, you can do one or the other against a given attack - and you can do one against one attack and the other against another, if you have them in a Combo - but you can't turn the WBDT parry into a perfect defense. This is the way I'd play it in my game if it ever came up... but ultimately this isn't my call. ::grins:: - [[Kurulham]] with his half crown | ||
| − | ::::::Oh, also, GregLink, this is totally irrelevant, but I found it amusing. I'm assuming the Solar in your example already had FFBS up, since FFBS isn't of instant duration... and I wonder if the Solar in question has Stillness Without Standing! ::maniacal giggle:: See! Your thinking is being ''infected'' by the existence of that Charm. - [[Kurulham]] | + | ::::::Oh, also, [[GregLink]], this is totally irrelevant, but I found it amusing. I'm assuming the Solar in your example already had FFBS up, since FFBS isn't of instant duration... and I wonder if the Solar in question has Stillness Without Standing! ::maniacal giggle:: See! Your thinking is being ''infected'' by the existence of that Charm. - [[Kurulham]] |
| − | The opposing viewpoint is understood. I politely disagree. Please do not attempt to explain things further. I understand your viewpoint perfectly. Instead, please reread what I wrote earlier regarding seeing WBDT as two separate effects. - TonyC | + | The opposing viewpoint is understood. I politely disagree. Please do not attempt to explain things further. I understand your viewpoint perfectly. Instead, please reread what I wrote earlier regarding seeing WBDT as two separate effects. - [[TonyC]] |
| − | :You know, respectfully saying you understand our arguments and then appealing to our decency by politely bowing out is cheating ;). Don't get me wrong, I'm still cheering for you and your golden boys against FrivYeti and his undead goon.- [[Ambisinister]] | + | :You know, respectfully saying you understand our arguments and then appealing to our decency by politely bowing out is cheating ;). Don't get me wrong, I'm still cheering for you and your golden boys against [[FrivYeti]] and his undead goon.- [[Ambisinister]] |
:Hmmm... the complaint seems to be that HGD can't supplement a parry you already have (instead it simply provides a perfect parry). There are two ways around this argument that I can see. (1)Say that it is WBDT that is reflexively adding on to HGD and not vice-versa. I haven't looked at the charm text lately, so I don't know if that would be feasible. (2) Create a new charm that takes HGD as a prerequisite that reflexively modifies a parry to be perfect. There you go. -[[szilard]] | :Hmmm... the complaint seems to be that HGD can't supplement a parry you already have (instead it simply provides a perfect parry). There are two ways around this argument that I can see. (1)Say that it is WBDT that is reflexively adding on to HGD and not vice-versa. I haven't looked at the charm text lately, so I don't know if that would be feasible. (2) Create a new charm that takes HGD as a prerequisite that reflexively modifies a parry to be perfect. There you go. -[[szilard]] | ||
| − | ::Since it can go both ways, why not let the ref decide? Yeah, Friv might not like letting anyone take or break his favorite villain's favorite toy, but hell ;-); as a ST i'd see the whole battle as a last attempt to settle things when nothing else works. It's already a suicidal propostition. Still, Solar Exalted rock! Please let the bloodshed commence. :-) [DogSkull] | + | ::Since it can go both ways, why not let the ref decide? Yeah, Friv might not like letting anyone take or break his favorite villain's favorite toy, but hell ;-); as a ST i'd see the whole battle as a last attempt to settle things when nothing else works. It's already a suicidal propostition. Still, Solar Exalted rock! Please let the bloodshed commence. :-) [[[DogSkull]]] |
| − | ::As I am sure that TonyC perfectly understands the point of double-dipping, I'm with Dogskull here. Let FrivYeti decide and...Let's get it on! -[[Clebo]] | + | ::As I am sure that [[TonyC]] perfectly understands the point of double-dipping, I'm with Dogskull here. Let [[FrivYeti]] decide and...Let's get it on! -[[Clebo]] |
| − | ::: I'd probably allow it... but the Lion is probably going to avoid the whole question by punching Stone Monkey in the face a lot. ;) - FrivYeti | + | ::: I'd probably allow it... but the Lion is probably going to avoid the whole question by punching Stone Monkey in the face a lot. ;) - [[FrivYeti]] |
Latest revision as of 04:17, 9 June 2010
Stone Monkey basically deals tons of damage. He's not someone you throw against a Dodge monkey (hmmm, there's a lot of monkeying around in these threads) or a sword princess (Meleeist), but against a soak monster, he's the man. In a normal game he's probably the behemoth killer.
Charm-wise, Stone Monkey relies on the synergy of Increasing Strength Exercise and Perfection of Earth Body. After looking at Lunar, it looks like my first interpretation of charm-stacking is incorrect. Still, the combined effect of the two charms is a Strength of 15. Add an artifact tetsubo (piercing damage) and he should be rolling a dozen dice or so everytime he connects.
The problem is, of course, connecting. Because of this, despite his caste, he's actually a support character. He won't shine until after the rest of the circle shut Lion's charm usage down. After that though, he'll be the only one who won't have to rely on ping damage. I'm also hoping to utilize Weapon Breaking Defense Technique to destroy's Lion's weapon, therefore shutting Lion's Melee charms down.
Name: Stone Monkey
Caste: Dawn
Concept: Sun Wu Kung
Nature: Bravo
Anima: King Kong
Quote: Booyah! I'm the greatest!
Contents
Stone Monkey as starting character
I put this to prove Stone Monkey is viable starting character. That is, he's someone who can actually survive long enough to get those 500 XP. Because of that, he might not be the most efficient as far as XP-BP algorithm goes, but hey, we got 500 XP.
Attributes
Physical: Strength 5, Dexterity 3, Stamina 3
Social: Charisma 3, Manipulation 2, Appearance 2
Mental: Perception 3, Intelligence 2, Wits 4
Abilities
Dawn: Archery 0, Brawl 1, Martial Arts 1, Melee 5, Thrown 0
Zenith: Endurance 3, Performance 2, Presence 0, *Resistance 2, Survival 0
Twilight: Craft 0, *Investigation 1, Lore 1, Medicine 1, Occult 0
Night: *Athletics 1, Awareness 3, *Dodge 3, Larceny 0, Stealth 0
Eclipse: Bureaucracy 0, Linguistics 1, Ride 1, Sail 1, *Socialize 1
Note: * = Favored skill.
Languages spoken: Riverspeak & Low Realm.
Virtues: Compassion 5, Conviction 2, Temperance 1, Valor 5
Backgrounds: Artifact 3, Manse 3, Mentor 1
Willpower: 10, Essence: 2, Essence Pool: 16 + 37
Virtue Flaw: Red Rage of Compassion (Compassion)
Charms
- Respect Commanding Attitude
- Ox-Body Technique (-1, -2, -2)
- Sensory Acuity Prana
- Surprise Anticipation Method
- Reed in The Wind
- Shadow Over Water
- Body Mending Meditation
- Excellent Strike
- Golden Essence Block
- Dipping Swallow Defense
HL: -0, -1, -1, -1, -2, -2, -2, -2, -4, Incapacitated.
Stone Monkey at 500 XP
Total XP so far: 406. Finalized.
Attributes
Physical: Strength 5, Dexterity 5, Stamina 5
Social: Charisma 3, Manipulation 2, Appearance 2
Mental: Perception 3, Intelligence 2, Wits 4
Abilities
Dawn: Archery 0, Brawl 3, Martial Arts 5, Melee 5, Thrown 0
Zenith: Endurance 3, Performance 2, Presence 0, *Resistance 2, Survival 0
Twilight: Craft 0, *Investigation 1, Lore 1, Medicine 1, Occult 0
Night: *Athletics 3, Awareness 3, *Dodge 5, Larceny 0, Stealth 0
Eclipse: Bureaucracy 0, Linguistics 1, Ride 1, Sail 1, *Socialize 1
Note: * = Favored skill.
Languages spoken: Riverspeak & Low Realm.
Virtues: Compassion 5, Conviction 2, Temperance 1, Valor 5
Backgrounds: No longer applicable. It's assumed that through the course of play Stone Monkey and his circle got tons of stuffs. However, Stone Monkey has the following artifact and hearthstone:
Seven Leaping Dragons Stone (4) (adds 4 dice to MA pool)
Stone of Revolutionary Dog (3) (adds 1 to WP recovery)
Orichalcum Tetsubo (statted as Grand Goremaul) (3)
Willpower: 10, Essence: 5, Essence Pool: 25 personal, 59 peripheral
Virtue Flaw: Red Rage of Compassion (Compassion)
Charms
- Brawl: Ferocious Jab, Thunderclap Rush Attack.
- Martial Arts: Earth Dragon Style: Force of The Mountain, Unmoving Mountain Stance, Stone Dragon's Skin, Earth Dragon Form, Shattering Fist Strike, Earthshaker Attack, Stillness of Stone, Avalanche Method, Hungry Earth Strike, Weapon-Breaking Defense Technique, Ghost-Grounding Blow, Perfection of Earth Body. Violet Bier of Sorrows Style: Secrets of Future Strife, Flight of Mercury, Joy in Adversity Stance, Blade of the Battle Maiden, Violet Bier of Sorrows Form, Death Parrying Stroke, Life Severing Blow.
- Melee: Excellent Strike, Golden Essence Block, Dipping Swallow Defense, Bulwark Stance, Heavenly Guardian Defense, Solar Counter Attack.
- Endurance: Ox-Body Technique (-1, -2, -2), Essence Gathering Temper, Willpower-Enhancing Spirit.
- Performance: Respect Commanding Attitude.
- Resistance: Durability of Oak Meditation, Iron Skin Concentration
- Medicine: Body Mending Meditation
- Athletics: Strength Increasing Exercise.
- Awareness: Sensory Acuity Prana, Surprise Anticipation Method.
- Dodge: Reed in The Wind, Shadow Over Water, Seven-Shadow Evasion, Leaping Dodge Method.
Combos:
And Thus I Fought The Five Dragons To A Standstill: Surprise Anticipation Method, Thunderclap Rush Attack, Excellent Strike, Heavenly Guardian Defense, Seven Shadow Evasion, Leaping Dodge Method, Iron Skin Concentration, Life Severing Blow, Death Parrying Stroke, Essence Gathering Temper, Willpower-Enhancing Spirit, Solar Counterattack. (cost: 39 XP)
The Calm After: Force of The Mountain, Stillness of Stone, Heavenly Guardian Defense, Seven Shadow Evasion, Leaping Dodge Method, Life Severing Blow. (cost 25 XP)
Base Initiative: 9
Attacks:
Orichalcum Tetsubo (statted as Grand Goremaul): Speed 19, Accuracy 11, Damage 14L Piercing, Defense 12, Rate 4
Fists: Speed 9, Accuracy 11, Damage 5B, Defense 12, Rate 3
Kicks: Speed 6, Accuracy 11, Damage 8B, Defense 7, Rate 3
Dodge Pool: 15
Soak: 5B/2L/0A (unarmored)
Health Levels:: -0, -1, -1, -1, -2, -2, -2, -2, -4, Incapacitated.
Notes: the two turn set-up. SIE+PEB=Str 15.
Actual fight: the 5 Dragons Standstill combo should let Stone
Monkey defend himself against Lion. However, it's very
important that he gets Joy in Adversity Stance up ASAP, because
on average Varan's Ruin will siphon the netted motes. Plus
actually letting yourself get hit is really really risky. Much
better to rely on Joy in Adversity Stance + 7SE/HGD. The number of motes gained is about the same either way, zero, but at least now we aren't giving Lion free
motes.
Plan of attack: use Weapon-Breaking Defense Technique to destroy Varan's Ruin. Also, protect teammates by putting self in harm's way, parrying for them and taking the damage if necessary. Once Lion is disarmed/out of WP/has his combo disabled, use The Calm After. A hit from that is guaranteed to paralyze any opponent. However, Stillness of Stone must be used barehanded, forcing Stone Monkey to discard his weapon before using the charm. So timing is very important.
Comments
I'm pretty sure he doesn't have to abandon his tetsubo just to make a barehanded attack; he can just hang on to his Buick-sized beatstick in his offhand while engaging in fisticuffs. - braincraft
I don't believe Weapon Breaking Defense Technique is able to destroy artifact weapons but I could be wrong. . .
- The difficulty of the Strength + MA increases to 5, but it can be done. The real problem is that you can't use a perfect defense with WBDT, since it's a full-pool reflexive all by itself. (Also, please sign your comments?) - Kurulham
- The Strength + MA difficulty 5 roll is easy. Stone Monkey has 24 dice in that pool. Whether you can use perfect defense with WBDT is iffy but I believe it does. For a combined cost of 10m+2wp plus the combo costs, it really isn't game-breaking. Compare with a combo of, say, Seven Shadow Evasion and Leaping Dodge Method (2 dodge charms, but different benefits). Also compare with Angry Predator Frenzy Style plus Five-Fold Bulwark Stance. APFS gives counterattacks plus 2 actions/turn either or both could be used for full dodge or/and parry, FFBS persistent parry. Nobody requires that to counter-attack, the Tiger martial artist cannot use the parries granted by FFBS and must instead abort one of the action to a full parry. - TonyC
- Players Guide quite clearly states that you can only parry a given attack once. The question then becomes whether or not HGD, instead of providing a parry, can enhance a parry gained by other means - for example, WBDT. That's a question for FrivYeti, and it is ambiguous; I'd be inclined to disallow it, and that inclination is strengthened by the fact that the Charms are of different Abilities - never mind that they're both reflexive. If WBDT or HGD were supplemental, I wouldn't say anything; as it is, I know what I'd do if it were my decision, but it isn't. (Also, I really really REALLY don't like WBDT breaking artifacts. But again, that's just me.) If Friv allows it, though, it's a damn good idea. - Kurulham
- You can't use both HGD and WBDT against the same attack - both are parries, and you can only parry an attack once. The comparison of a Combo of Seven Shadow Evasion and Leaping Dodge isn't relevant - Leaping Dodge Technique isn't a dodge, it modifies a dodge. The comparison of APFS and FFBS is also irrelevant because the counterattacks are optional, as is what the Tiger stylist chooses to do with the extra action. - David.
- I had a longish reply but then I realized that my position could be simplified as this: You two see WBDT and HGD and see (parry + weapon breaking) and (parry). The parentheses are intentional, btw. You two see each charm as a concrete unit and one must override the other. I see WBDT and see parry + weapon breaking and HGD and see a parry. The lack of parentheses is also intentional. So I see WBDT and go "hey, normal parry" and see nothing wrong plugging HGD into the normal parry part (call it enhancing or whatever, the logic's the same) and getting HGD + weapon breaking out of the combo. I mean, it's a normal parry. Normal parries get manipulated with charms. Dice-adder, dice subtractor, full-pool parry, perfects, target number modifier, difficulty modifier, the whole works. A parry that can't be manipulated with charms is the abnormal one in Exalted. Since I don't see them as concrete units that must override one another, I see nothing wrong compositing them. - TonyC
- TonyC, how do you look at DSD vs HGD? DSD gives you a full parry from nothing, but it can't be stacked with another existing parry. You can't use your dice action to parry and then modify it with DSD. Since HGD doesn't rely on an existing parry to function, there's no reason to modify a parry granted from a dice action with it. Looking at it this way, HGD provides a parry, it doesn't modify one, same as DSD.- Ambisinister
- Okay, look, I understand completely what you are trying to say. I just don't agree with it. Let me try explaining it a different way. Let's say Charm 1 does X + Z. Charm 2 does X Prime, which is like X, only better. The rule says you can only have one X, either the normal X or the superior X Prime. You guys say that since you can only have one X, then when you combo Charm 1 and Charm 2, you get either (X + Z) or X Prime. I say that the way charms work if that when you combo Charm 1 and Charm 2, you get X Prime + Z. You say "but you can't have X twice!" Well, as far as I can tell, I don't. I only have X Prime. I'm not doing X + X Prime + Z. - TonyC
- How about this in TonyC's favor though: Suppose you're not in PC, and lose init. You declare that you'll be splitting your die pools 5 ways, for 5 parries. Your opponent declares a whole bunch of attacks (6), and because you're a good guy, you declare that you'll be activating your "I don't die" combo, one charm of which is FFBS. This way, you'll be able to parry the man effectively. On the 6th attack, much to your annoyance, your opponent declares a perfect attack, such as "Unstoppable Death Causing Technique". Now, that's bad. Luckily, you also have HGD in your combo. You think "Oh, it's no big deal. I'm 3m + 1WP from safety". Sadly, your ST informs you that HGD provides a parry, and doesn't supplement one, and since you've already got a parry, you're out of luck. You die. After all, it is the "Unstoppable Death Causing Technique". I'm not saying this is 100% applicable to the situation we're in now, but it points out that HGD is fairly 'trumping' in that even if you've got a parry already, you can HGD. - GregLink, continuing....
- That's not how a situation like that works. We'll say you've already invoked FFBS, and then in response to the Combo, you use HGD. You have to choose either FFBS or HGD to parry the attack, you can't use both. Using HGD means you forego any parry-based benefits from FFBS (which, in this example, is just the parry, nothing else). In your example, HGD is not supplementing a parry, it's providing one. If you had split your pool for defense, you could still use HGD, and you also would not expend the split-action you had reserved to defend yourself. Choosing one instant parry over another means that you forego the effects of the instant parry you chose not to use. HGD isn't trumping anything here (other than the attack it's defending against, of course), you're choosing it and foregoing the other. - David.
- More to the point, imagine an evil little Essence 5 brawl charm, of type 'reflexive' or perhaps 'supplemental' that notes "After an attack has been declared, and the defense rolled, but before damage is applied, this charm may be activated. It converts said attack to perfect." In such a situation, being able to apply HGD immediately is a requirement. Now, that charm isn't canon, but one can easily see how such a 'make an attack perfect after it would've normally failed' charm is both very Solar, and very reasonable. Given that such a charm might exist, the ability to HGD after a normal parry is key. - GregLink, in favor of TonyC
- GregLink, using your example, there's nothing preventing the victimized solar in question from using HGD. Instead of using his last parry, he reflexively activates HGD. He's not required to use his parries from die actions or his parries from FFBS. As for your second comment, if you're supposing the existence of charms, there's nothing stopping me from proposing a charm that could counter your charm. We could both make up charms that neatly circumvent the other's argument all day long and still not resolve anything. (Although I do like your brawl charm!)- Ambisinister
- First off, I have to say that I find a Charm which makes an attack unblockable after it's already been blocked to be highly questionable, and possibly broken, for precisely this reason. ::grins:: Second, I'm not sure your FFBS example applies, because you can HGD instead of your normal parry, as Ambisinister noted. That's fine. I mean, FFBS doesn't specifically note that you have to use your persistent parry, just that you can. But you're not also doing your normal parry - you're just HGDing instead, so you don't get any special effects that come with that parry. Now, FFBS doesn't give you any special effects with the parry, but there are other parry Charms which do. Like, for example, WBDT.
- I was about to quote the text of WBDT, but then I remembered that the Charm text has been errata'd and the wording left rather unspecific, so I guess I won't. I'll just sum up my viewpoint: if you have access to two separate parries, you may choose one; by choosing that one, you forego all special effects of the other. If you HGD when you have FFBS up, you forego your FFBS parry in favor of HGD. If you have the option of either WBDTing or HGDing, you can do one or the other against a given attack - and you can do one against one attack and the other against another, if you have them in a Combo - but you can't turn the WBDT parry into a perfect defense. This is the way I'd play it in my game if it ever came up... but ultimately this isn't my call. ::grins:: - Kurulham with his half crown
- Oh, also, GregLink, this is totally irrelevant, but I found it amusing. I'm assuming the Solar in your example already had FFBS up, since FFBS isn't of instant duration... and I wonder if the Solar in question has Stillness Without Standing! ::maniacal giggle:: See! Your thinking is being infected by the existence of that Charm. - Kurulham
The opposing viewpoint is understood. I politely disagree. Please do not attempt to explain things further. I understand your viewpoint perfectly. Instead, please reread what I wrote earlier regarding seeing WBDT as two separate effects. - TonyC
- You know, respectfully saying you understand our arguments and then appealing to our decency by politely bowing out is cheating ;). Don't get me wrong, I'm still cheering for you and your golden boys against FrivYeti and his undead goon.- Ambisinister
- Hmmm... the complaint seems to be that HGD can't supplement a parry you already have (instead it simply provides a perfect parry). There are two ways around this argument that I can see. (1)Say that it is WBDT that is reflexively adding on to HGD and not vice-versa. I haven't looked at the charm text lately, so I don't know if that would be feasible. (2) Create a new charm that takes HGD as a prerequisite that reflexively modifies a parry to be perfect. There you go. -szilard
- Since it can go both ways, why not let the ref decide? Yeah, Friv might not like letting anyone take or break his favorite villain's favorite toy, but hell ;-); as a ST i'd see the whole battle as a last attempt to settle things when nothing else works. It's already a suicidal propostition. Still, Solar Exalted rock! Please let the bloodshed commence. :-) [[[DogSkull]]]
- I'd probably allow it... but the Lion is probably going to avoid the whole question by punching Stone Monkey in the face a lot. ;) - FrivYeti
