Difference between revisions of "FixTheSolarCharmTrees/MedicineGeneralChanges"

Revision as of 23:33, 7 January 2005

Delta_I's Version

In the game I've run, it seemed that the medicine tree was too long for what it does. So, we started merging the self/others charms:

• Grievous Injury Recovery Method merges into Wound-Caring Method Technique.
• Ailment-Rectifying Method merges into Contagion-Curing Touch.
• Bodily Regeneration Prana Merges into Healing Trance Meditation.

With that, the tree now has only seven charms.

The merged result always has the higher pre-requisites of both charms.

notsoangrydave's Version

Too many Charms isn't how I had looked at the Medicine Tree, but it brings up a good point i'll look into with book in hand later.

My changes were just going to be separating the wound and poison/illness healing trees. That way, Flawless Diagnosis Tech, Ailment-Rectifying Method and Contagion-Curing Touch don't require all those wound-healing Charms as prereqs, and vice versa.

MetalFatigue's Version

...is at SolarMedicine/MetalFatigue.

Vote Tally

Original Version

1. Kraken

Delta_I's Version

1. Shooshpanchick

notsoangrydave's version

1. notsoangrydave
2. BrokenShade
3. Clebo
4. Blaque
5. SilverMeerKat
6. Braydz
7. Domon
8. Lipperman

MetalFatigue's version

1. MetalFatigue

Comments

It makes sense to me for basic Charms to only work on yourself, and more advanced ones to work on others too. ^_^ -- BrokenShade

I like notsoangraydave's solution because it is so simple. Tell me, would this mean that a solar can learn all the healing charms without learning any poison stuff? Furthermore, it is important to note that this does not mean that solars suddenly get better at regeneration than Lunars. Clebo

I also think that notsoangrydave's idea is pretty nice in that it just makes a nice break in things. It also makes a Solar get to certaint higns easier, which is nice looking at how thing slike the Abyssal or Terrestrial trees have simaller splits. And I agree, it doesn't make Soalrs better at regenration then Lunars. I bet Lunars sorta just regenerate as they heal. The Lunars still retain their Instant, Reflexive heals and all. And DBT healing just owns. Stuff. Blaque

I think that when they made the healing charms, they decided that instant and powerful healing was not heroic, and therefore made it as difficult as they could. But dragonbloods, and later lunars sort of threw that idea out the window. I think the solar healing tree needs some serious work. - Morpheus

Instant Healing is still difficult. Dragonbloods only get instant wound conversion, which is, while useful, by no means instant. someone ruduced to incapacitated and then healed to the fullest of a dragonblood's ability will still be unconcious for the 3 hours, and suffering dicepool penalties for at least the next 18... Admittedly the top of tree ess 3 lunar charm does allow instant healing of others (even of agg.) but at the cost of 5 motes per level. The Solar instant healthing charm (which costs the solar about the same xp as the lunar to get - lunar gets it 5 cheaper, assuming both have it out of caste/favoured, but not including the cost of attributes or abilities bought) is cheaper, at alittle over 3 motes per HL healed, though admittedly not agg damage though the solar's version gets more efficient as the solar raises in essence. So I dont really undertstand what you are complaining about. - Kraken

I understand. He's saying that with a Lunar, it takes 5 Charms to get to an instant-heal, which is pretty damn cost-effective, can heal agg., and works on yourself and others. With Solars, it takes 8 Charms, heals a set amount of HLs, doesn't heal agg., and can only be used on other people. The Solar Medicine tree sucks. I like notsoangrydave's fix, personally. - SilverMeerKat

So Lunars are better at wound-healing than Solars. This is a problem? It makes sense to me the way it is. --MetalFatigue

Actually, it seems to contradict the whole "Lunar Charms are good at combat and shapeshifting and passable at everything else" bit. It also contradicts that big schpiel somewhere (I think it's in the core) about how hard it is to get instant-heal Charms because damage is supposed to be a big deal (like real life). I don't have a problem with Lunars healing themselves really well (it seems a natural extension of shapeshifting), but I don't see how they could be better at healing others than the Solars. As the Charms stand, Lunars are much better at healing other people than anyone else. I'm not saying it's a bad thing they can heal people, I just think Solars should be at least as good at it. Even the Solar instant-heal Charm itself is wildly inferior to Mother's Touch, and it has 3 more prereq Charms by canon. - SilverMeerKat

Hypothetically, the way I'd do it is that at lower levels, you can't instantly heal, but only speed healing and have other effects, and eventually instant healing should come in a an occasional benefit imparted by only "healers" for use in the heat of battle (approximately), and only once the damage that occurs tends to well outweigh how much can be healed. And I'm totally with the SilverMeerKat with the lunars. I think that a solar should be at least as good at healing, and they aren't. But I think that a workable solution is to rework the solar tree to provide more instant effects slightly earlier and do some work on the lunar tree to represent a lunars comparative ease in mending their own bodies compared to others. I think solars should be better at healing others that lunars. There's my two cents, but I'm still working on what specifically I'd do. I'll bet nobody cares. - Morpheus

SMK: This may be just because I've played too much Amber, but it makes sense to me that shapeshifters would be much better healers. --MF

Also recall that Lunar Charms cost more xp than Solar. I don't really see anything wrong with the Solar tree as-is.\\ _Ikselam

Honestly, the real problem I have with the Solar Medicine tree (especially as compared to the Lunar healing tree) is that Annointment of Miraculous Health is sort of a mongoloid second cousin of Mother's Touch. It's both less flexible and less powerful in terms of number of HL healed, types of damage healed, and possible targets (why why can't you use it on yourself, for god's sake?). But to address your point, the Charms themselves may be cheaper, but AMH has three more prereq charms than MT. That means that, assuming you're paying favored costs, the Solar Charm still takes 4 more xp to get to. If you're paying standard costs, it's 5 (60 to 64 and 75 to 80, respectively). - SilverMeerKat

The way this was solved in discussion with Morpheus yesterday was to take away the agg. damage capability of Mother's Touch and give the Lunars 2 more charms; one off of Halt the Scarlet Flow that converts your own agg. to lethal, and one off of Mother's Touch that converts the agg. of others.\\ Though as far as the Solar tree goes, I much prefer the illness/injury separation to anything else really suggested so far.\\ ~*~Braydz~*~

Honestly, that's probably the best way to put MT on par with AoMH. That way, agg. is still a major problem, even for Lunars. Plus, it brings the trees closer together in terms of prerequisites. As a side note, does anyone have a good explanation for why AoMH can only be used on others? I don't necessarily dislike the restriction, especially with the changes we're discussing to both Lunar and Solar healing trees, but I'd like the hear a plausible metagame reason, cause I can't come up with one. - SilverMeerKat

If they are both favoured the Solar gets it 2-4xp cheaper in fact, as the lunar tree is multi-attribute and so they can never have all the charms on it favoured. My view of why AoMH is others only is not to crimp lunars regeneration, which is one of thier major schticks. Aside from the 'instant healing in a combo' which the lunar charms allow, a solar who could use AoMH on himself would heal himself of lethal damage more quickly and cheaply than a lunar once he started to rise in essence, barring the DBT regeneration gifts, though of course the lunar still has the flexibility of only healing one HL at a time, and still cheaper for bashing damage. In this case the solar is trading flexibilty for high-essence efficiency, which seems to be the case for most of the Solar Healing tree. A Lunar would always pay 3 motes to heal a level of lethal damage with his charms, whereas a solar would pay anywhere between 10 motes/L (1HL of lethal damage) to 2 motes/L (5HL of lethal damage for an ess 5 solar). Of course for healing others the lunar still wins for 1L (the solar still pays 10 motes), but for anymore damage the solar just gets better, up to a bestcase senario for the solar (ess 5) of paying 2 motes/L compared to a lunars 5 motes/L. The case for Agg. is less clear cut, as the solar has to spend more XP and, while his charms are efficient, they have serious drawbacks. Lunars make better 'dramatic time' healers of agg damage, solars are, in general, better 'offscreen' healers of agg. - Kraken

Braydz: Brilliant idea (re: the changes to MT). I'm going to do it that way. Kraken: A very lucid explanation. --MF

Kraken: point taken about the xp costs. However, my main problem with the disparity in healing ability b/t Solars and Lunars is that, while insta-healing one's self would seem to be part of the Lunar schtick (and rightly so), I don't see why it should be barred to a Solar - especially the Agg. bit, since that seems to me a simple matter of power, which is the thing the Solars are supposed to have above and beyond everyone else. I understand that it might start to step on some Lunar toes, but it is a simple Charm, so it's not really useful in terms of healing yourself in combat, which is where the Lunars really shine anyway. If it were reflexive, like the Lunar self-heal Charms, then I'd agree with you. As for healing others, as I've said before, I don't particularly see any reason why that should be easier for Lunars than for Solars, as it really goes beyond shaping your own form - so, by default, the Solars should be better at it. <tangent>Honestly, that seems to be how the various types of Exalt are set up. By default, the Solars are better at everything. Each Exalt type gets a few things to be better at than the Solars, and the Solars are better at everything else.</tangent> Anyway, yeah. - SilverMeerKat

I'd rather add an instant-self-heal Charm above the existing tree than patch AoMH. Law of Parsimony: why change an existing Charm when the same effect can be achieved by adding a house Charm? --MF

Danke, MF.\\ ~*~Braydz~*~

Yes, instant healing is not heroic, but dragging one incapacitated character to an entire adventure isn't my idea of fun roleplaying either. I tend to use an artifact to counteract the problem. It allows instant healing to full health at a hideous cost (all remaining Essence, can only be used once per day) and a slower healing process, that doesn't require essence. The artifact requires a level 3 hearthstone to operate.

Cheers, BrokenQuill