TrialBySchmendrick/SonorousDiscussionOfVirtue

Trial started: 25Feb07
Trial completed: {date}

Compassion: The Art of Victorious Concession (Hapushet)

Nareita of the Needles was once a simple wood-cutter's daughter from the Southeast more than three centuries past. After joining the local militia as a young girl, she showed a prodigious talent for warfare, but it was said of her that she never struck a blow but in sorrow. She is believed to have once defeated a Wood Aspect scion of the Realm in single combat over the latter's attempted ravishment of a village boy; tales told later say that, she wept so hard over the Dragon-Blooded's body that a willow tree had grown up from it by the following morning.

After her death, in battle against a barbarian horde lead by a Chosen of Luna, her people began to worship her as a goddess of protection and healing. She eventually found a place for herself in the Bureau of Humanity, overseeing the Illimited Order of Sacred Workers of the Needle, which concerns the actions of acupuncturists throughout Creation. Sadly, the corruption of the Celestial Bureaucracy has infected even Nareita; while once she was a devoted and tireless leader in her department, now her interests have been captured by the Sonorous Discussion of Virtue, and she spends most of her time preparing for the next tournament as she prepares to defend her belief in the power of Compassion against all comers.

When readying herself for battle, Nareita still wears the green jade reinforced breastplate she took from the body of her defeated Dragon-Blooded adversary, which she has renamed Protection for All (soak +10L/+9B, Hardness 8L/8B, Mobility -1, Fatigue 0, attune 4m). She wears orichalcum hearthstone bracers given to her as a lover's token; they are called Pasiap's Bane, and mark her fierce opposition to the Bronze Faction (+3 dodge, +2 damage to all attacks, attune 6m). In the right bracer nestles her Precision of Form Gemstone, drawn from the earthly Manse she claims as a second Sanctum in the distant East (-2m to cost of all Charms of a given Style once the Style's Form is activated, to a minimum of half the original cost).

In addition to two choices of Reserve of Will and all three Martial Arts Excellencies, Nareita knows the following Combos:

• Compelling Words of Forgiveness: Honey-Coated Admonitions, Showering Foes with Friendship, Soothing Word of Wisdom (6m, 2wp + 6m+/attack).

• Regretful Correction: Softening Cruel Tidings, Flawed Dedication Consent, Third Martial Arts Excellency (10m, 3wp).

• Price of Learning: Open the Door, Lesson of the Rod (4m, 1wp).

Conviction: The Art of Relentless Persuasion (JasonWhittle)

Indigo Book of Cerement Pages was a member of the Ministry of Endings responsible for cataloguing the deaths of slaves across Creation, thus ensuring their higher souls the freedom to reincarnate. Incorruptible, she ignored the Sonorous Discussion of Virtue. In the course of her duties, she was captured by a Deathknight and imprisoned by the First and Forsaken Lion, whose plans depended on slaves no longer leaving behind their fetters upon death. In time, her own enslavement ended in the only way she understood, but she was able to take her Abyssal captor with her.

Now free of the Lion, Indigo Book is twisted by the Labyrinth and no longer able to go back to her duties. Instead, she inspires slaves to revolt and agitates for the deaths of their masters. She has also come to display an obsession with the holy virtue of Conviction, claiming it as the key to power for the dispossessed and disenfranchised.

She is a fearsome sight in the Oblivion-dusted power armor of the Deathknight with whom she shared mutual destruction—which she has since christened Animus Aegis—and the sounds of her shrieking gauntlets have accompanied the passage of many slave masters, several guild factors and a couple of pugilists who doubted her strength of Conviction.

Temperance: The Art of Meditative Discussion (WillCoon)

Corentin, the Parchment Hyacinth, was highly favored by She Who Lives In Her Name in the Age before the rebellion of the gods, and he attended always to Her requests almost as closely as he did to the duties of his province. Nonetheless, he was among the first to throw in his lot with the insurrection - and some say he did so at Her request. His domain was among those lost in the flames of the spheres She Who Lives In Her Name broke against Creation as She was imprisoned, and yet, he lived on in their wake.

It is unknown what new duties the Parchment Hyacinth is bound to, if any. However, he is well-regarded for his unusual forthrightness, honesty, and humility, and is often requested to serve as an impartial mediator or a philosophical advisor. Those who question his motives are quiet and few, and if his service since the overthrow of the primordials has been an act, it is an immaculate one.

Corentin has taken great interest in the Sonorous Discussion over the past few decades. He is glad for the chance to represent the virtue of temperance in the upcoming duels, and has brought his favorite armaments with him: Patience, a soulsteel hooked daiklave, Humility, a moonsilver baneclaw, and a suit of First Age Gunzosha armor with integrated Energy Shield Bracers.

Corentin will be using the First Martial Arts Excellency, Essence Plethora x2, and Reserve of Will x2, as well as the following combos:

• Instruction in Proper Humility: What Have You Learned Barrage, Hidden Defense, Command of Quiescence.
• Instruction in Befitting Silence: What Have You Learned Barrage, Hidden Defense, First Martial Arts Excellency.
• Cautious Inquiry: Patient Questions, Hidden Defense, Untouchable Purpose

Valor: The Art of Forceful Declaration (IanPrice)

The God of Dueling, Kokage, has voluntarily limited his form to match the stats of Schmendrick. He declares that this will prove once and for all the superiority of his style - that he will defeat the other arguements relying only on the power of the style, not his own potent Essence and natural form.

Kokage brings his matching pair of White Jade Grand Goremauls (Speed 4, Accuracy +2, Damage +17L, Defense -1, Rate 1, Attune 8 each) to this tournament, collectively named "Thunder on Thunder." His wrists bear Divine Manacles, all that remains of a lesser dueling god who was cast down for violating the terms of a duel he oversaw (Starmetal Hearthstone Bracers, +1 Accuracy and Defense, +3 Dodge dice, 4m commit).

The three Combos Kokage will use for these duels are:

• Begin the Arguement With Victory: Ceaseless Progressive Arguements, Vituperative Account, Stentorian Challenge (6m2w, +1m/attack)
• Crush Opposing Debatists Mercilessly: Challenge's Answer (3m), Rapid Rebuttal of the Harsh Tongue (7m), Second Dodge Excellency (2m/DV)
• Allow No Retreat or Recourse: Violently Advancing Theories, Biting Remark, Third Martial Arts Excellency (2m1w, 5m/attack, 4m/reroll)

He is also allowing himself to use the Third Martial Arts Excellency, the Second Dodge Excellency, 2x Essence Plethora and 1x Reserve of Will.

Signs

• The Musician: The combat is conducted under the standard second edition rule set.
• The Captain: Fighters are considered to be gods.
• The Guardians & The Spear: Fighters may use up to eight dots of total artifacts. This may include armor and weapons if the styles allows.

Round 1

• TrialBySchmendrick/VictoriousConcessionVsForcefulDeclaration
• TrialBySchmendrick/RelentlessPersuasionVsMeditativeDiscussion

Round 2

• TrialBySchmendrick/VictoriousConcessionVsRelentlessPersuasion
• TrialBySchmendrick/MeditativeDiscussionVsForcefulDeclaration

Round 3

• TrialBySchmendrick/VictoriousConcessionVsMeditativeDiscussion
• TrialBySchmendrick/RelentlessPersuasionVsForcefulDeclaration

Conclusions

A section for what was learned

Initial Negotiations

I want artefaktz! Also, given the nature of this contest, we should be gods. That means a dice pool cap of Essence. Further, we'll need a special rule on our Virtue values to qualify for our styles. Finally, this ought to take place in an actual arena - perhaps Kokage's golden colluseum in the south. Dusty, flat, defined size (say a football field in diameter, 100 yards). - IanPrice

Yeah, yeah, we know - grand goremauls.  ;) We don't have to be gods, by the by - the text says that mortals have won the tournament in the past. That said, my only problem with being gods is that the Essence cap is lower than the Virtues we'll have, so some of us (including you, Valor-man, thanks to your Form) will not be able to take full advantage of our Style benefits. If you want to go that route, I suggest we all have Essence 5. As for Virtues, I was going to recommend (Relevant Virtue) 5, (All the Others) 3. How does that sound? And dusty arenas are fine. - Hapushet, wondering what he has unleashed

Well, gods are the most common participants, and since we all have to be the same thing... anyhow, yes, having Essence 5 sounds good, since gods get Essence purely based on, well, their Essence. Relevant virtue 5 all others 3, also good. Besides the grand goremauls, the ability to wear heavy armor is important to the three styles besides mine. Plus, the Conviction style only shows its best stuff when there's heavy armor for it to penetrate.

Out of style charms? We'll all have to be Materialized to fight like this. Essence Plethora? Reserve of Will? Principle of Motion? Excellencies? Not a thing? - IanPrice

Wow, you have an in-depth knowledge of these styles; I hadn't figured that out yet. I concur with the schema for assigning Virtues. Also, I put in The Musician for the first sign, as SecondEdition would seem to be the logical ruleset. -- JasonWhittle (Who thinks Sayuri is the god of Conviction, but isn't entirely sure.)

We could avoid the Materialized issue - and, more importantly, the Essence cost of same - by holding the tournament in Yu-Shan or some god's sanctum. We could perhaps posit that one of the Gods of the Debate has offered to host the tournament this year in his/her/its Sanctum? For a creepy alternative, perhaps the Mask of Winters has agreed to hold it some night in Thorns as a "gesture of diplomatic good will" toward Heaven... As for the others, I'm hesitant for one reason at least - one of my Charms allows me to spend stolen Essence on Compassion Charms, but currently we don't know exactly which ones those are. Also, we'd have to figure out how Principle of Motion works. Excellencies on the other hand don't bother me too much, since I would assume they are Virtue-neutral.

Another thought - I'd recommend we limit ourselves to Virtue channels from our primary Virtues alone, but under the stipulation that, given the contaxt in which we are operating (i.e., defending a philosophical position on the value of each Virtue), it will be assumed that channeling that Virtue will always be suitable unless there is a clear violation of the Virtue's dictates by a player. - Hapushet, who actually strangely likes the Mask idea now that he considers it...

I second the Thorns idea. As this is a fight for fun, rather than balancing experimental Charms, my druthers would be to have a more varied field of battle. But perhaps Mask of Winters hasn't invited us. Would anyone else find it interesting to hold the fight in a crumbling ruin overrun by zombie extras? I'm already thinking of reasons why this is plausible in a sanctum.

Also, since we seem to be agreed on using artifacts, I've put up The Guardians and The Spear as the next two signs. Given that one of us can only use light armor and two of us can't use weapons, would it make sense to come up with a dot total for both, and individuals can tailor to taste? -- JasonWhittle

I'm up for any arena, though I thought the Sonorous Discussion of Virtue was a pretty respectable (and more importantly, formal) martial arts tournament. I'm also cool with the "only channel your related Virtue for this fight" rule. Anyway, for artifacts, how about 8-10 dots of artifacts and hearthstones? That'd give room for me to do what I advertised (ie, dual-wield grand goremauls), and room for y'all to counter me with some interesting hearthstones and nifty armor. - IanPrice

well, formal dule isn't ruled out by some of the options we've suggested so far - I'm sure in its own way, the Mask's version of the duel would be both very formal and filled with pageantry. I'm generally inclined toward the smaller end of the "gimme stuffz!" idea, just because all too often the fights can turn on equipment rather than Charm effects. That said, I'd be fine with 8 dots total. - Hapushet

Okay, so we're settled on eight dots total for artifacts. I've changed the signs section to reflect this. Since no one's spoken out against it, I also put up a sign to indicate that all fighters are gods. What rules are we using to limit spirit Charms? As far as location, I was using the assumption that since this wasn't taking place at the Carnival of Meeting, it was not a formal duel, and could be anywhere. May I suggest that each duel take place somewhere different? Hapushet and I can meet in Thorns in Round 2 and it needn't affect anyone else. —JasonWhittle

As I said, I don't care where we fight. However, I do think we ought to have some Combos. Perhaps three Combos of up to three charms each? - IanPrice

Since fight locations are mostly a question of stunt imagery unless we use a Sign like the Rising Smoke, we could allow the combatants to negotiate it out in each individual battle. As for Combos, that sounds fine to me. Did we resolve the use of additional Charms beyond the styles themselves? - Hapushet

Don't think we did yet. How about everyone gets 5, split between Essence Plethora, Reserve of Will, and Excellencies? - IanPrice, would play Temperance, but he's already playing Valor.

Seems reasonable. Are we using the standard Essence pool for gods, which for Schmendrick would be 90 motes to begin with? - Hapushet

Now this sounds really interesting, but I am kinda at a total loss as to what exactly it is. Where are these styles listed? Given a little time to familiarize myself with the rules, I might be able to play Temperance when this thing gets running...? ~WillCoon

Welcome, Will! The Four Arguements of Virtue are celestial-level martial arts specifically designed for use by gods, and they are detailed in The Imperfect Lotus, a pdf supplement for Scroll of the Monk which is available online from drivethruRPG and direct from White Wolf. - IanPrice

Cool! I love Scroll, and have been looking towards Imperfect Lotus. If you don't find anyone soon, and I grok the style, then I'd really enjoy playing... though I haven't run a lot of E2 combat and I'm probably tactically not the greatest... still, if you'll have me, I'll try to make it interesting at least! ~WillCoon

Ian, I notice you've included the material bonuses for your weapons and bracers without the double attunement cost. Can gods even get the material bonuses? And if so, shouldn't they require double attunement for at least some of it? (I'd think they would have starmetal as their favored MM, if they have one.) - Hapushet

It's a very fuzzy issue. In 1e there were gods attuning to various artifacts and getting the bonuses, because it was appropriate to their godly duties. - IanPrice

Hmm. Well, we needn't necessarily establish a canon answer to the question; what we need is to understand the ground rules for this tournament. I'm perfectly okay with allowing attunement to whatever with or without double attunement costs - we just need to settle for certain that that is, in fact, what we are doing. Would it just be easier to assume that gods' panoplies are automatically associated with them as though the MM were attuned to the appropriate type? As you say, there is some justification for that kind of position. - Hapushet

I'd like to run it that way. Otherwise the artifacts could be a rather large drain on essence pools. - IanPrice

I'd just like to ask a few tiny clarifications. It appears that success-adders do not count against dice adder limits unless specifically mentioned (such as in the Second Excellency), and further that charms that add directly to DVs are essenitally succes adders and so subject to this same rule. Also, it appears that both Patient Questions and What Have You Learned Barrage count as a guard action for purposes of PQ, but PQ cannot be activated during the guarding stage of WHYLB, nor does the instant-guard-mode effect of WHYLB count as a guard action for its own purposes. Are these accurate readings? ~WillCoon

Yes, unfortunately for me, as your first opponent. With that interpretation, you'll get +10 DV between patient questions and your form... *shudders* - IanPrice

They appear to have been designed that way. Ick. You might want to check the pairings again, though, Ian. - Hapushet

... Ouch. Well, half of that will go away when/if I attack. And yes, Hap is right, it's form + Cautious Comments. But I'm sure you guys'll think of something. Now I just need to figure out what you're planning with those unpleasantly swift hammers... ~WillCoon

Actually what I meant was that Ian's first fight is with me - you face Jason first. As for what he's planning... Read Wielding One's Tongue in the Valor style and you'll figure it out soon enough. - Hapushet, shuddering

That's... odd. I could have sworn I saw the same thing. ~ WillCoon

Hmm... well, guess I'm worrying about my will to fight at first rather than my ability to hit. Physician, heal thyself... - IanPrice, grinning

Something I've been meaning to ask and keep forgetting: seeing how many fights are being planned here, should we use the Mast? I was initially opposed to the idea, thinking it made the fights too static, but Ian's recent fight showed me that the result was actually a strong tendency to stunt and (ab)use various fight modifiers to change the odds, actually increasing creativity. So I think it might be a good idea. - Hapushet

I see the Mast as a way to make the fight go more quickly, at the expense of luck. Not entirely sure it made us fight any differently (especially since I tend to count on average successes when planning my actions). Wordman and I are stunt-aholics anyway, see our previous fight. - IanPrice

It wasn't your stunting (though that went well too) that I was thinking of as much as using tactics like higher ground, aiming, onslaught, and so forth - the various toys the system gives us to change the odds that often get overlooked in lieu of just stunting and Essence Overwhelming. That's what impressed me, and what seemed to be different from other fights I've seen on here. - Hapushet

Two points about the mast: 1) I think it worked better than I thought it would at using a single fight as a proxy for a number of repeated bouts between the same opponents. Looking at the outcome and relative health levels at the end would tell you quite a bit about how often a given style would win over, say, 100 battles. To me, since this is kind of the point of Trial by Schmendrick, I was pleased with how it worked. 2) The Student / Five fight would have gone even faster had we not had to wait for stunt totals. In the future, using the Mask, I might just say "everyone always gets two stunt die" and figure it will even out over time. - Wordman

Just from looking at my expected tactics, it seems like the Mast would end up causing those fighting me a long period of either reliably being able to hit me, or never being able to hit me, instead of the effect more likely with rolled dice - they might hit once or twice over the period. Perhaps this effect is most pronounced with the Temperance style (with high DVs sustained over a long period of observation). Just something to consider. ~WillCoon

I can't imagine cracking your DVs anyway. I mean, assuming you start with the Form and Cautious Comments, you've got a +10 DV on top of what will likely be a 9 DDV to begin with - I really don't imagine random chance will break through that any time short of the apocalypse. (I'm not looking forward to my fight with you either.) Maybe it's an issue, but I don't see it as being much of one. I'm willing to slow down to non-Mast speed if it's going to be a problem, though. - Hapushet, signing his post

Okay, well I'm fine either way, but my other opponents might want a chance to try. Also, if I'm totally untouchable, then there's nothing to prevent me from using all of my wacky sit-around-for-a-while buffs while my opponent just watches, rather than the alternative, which is that I use all of my wacky buffs while my opponent stunts some attacks that probably fail but give me a little encouragement to hurry it up a bit? Like I said, either way, but I'd like to get the other fighters' okay before I totally endorse this plan, which might significantly influence the outcome of my fights. -WillCoon

I say whatever. I was already working up plans to re-shape the terrain with some nice grand goremaul stuntage, and see if I could hit you with you waist-deep in water and me attacking from above. That'd shave 5 points off, which I think I could hit... - IanPrice

Player Chat

A space for the combatants to discuss things with each other.

Observer Comments

Regarding WillCoon's statement on DVs and DV adders, I'd like to draw everyone's attention to pg. 185 of the core, to the Charms and Pools Sidebar which states:

For unrolled activities such as DV (see p. 146), Mental DV (see p.172) or feats of stength(see p. 127), Charms increase a character's static rating by adding to the (relevant Attribute + Ability). This bonus increases the (Attribute + Ability) pool, not the final result of any calculations, so if the (Attribute + Ability) is divided in half, the bonus rating will be applied before the division, not afterward. The result is that player will normally have to add two "dice" to increase a static value by one..."

The emphasis is theirs, but my reading of this indicates that DV boosters are not treated in the same way as a success adder is with a rolled pool. -Ambisinister

I'm not sure this contradicts the above, it seems instead to be talking about a specific case of dice adder usage. Also, in balance terms, note that the Temperance stylist can only benefit from such high DVs while his opponents benefit from effectively arbitrarily high DVs, that is, he only gains the full bonus until he attacks. ~WillCoon

The thing goes on to state that no combination of charms may raise a static rating higher than (attribute + ability)/2. This could be extrapolated to read (ability+specialty)/2 for DBs, (Attribute)/2 for Lunars and Alchies, and (essence)/2 for gods and Sidereals. As you are receiving your bonus from charms(presumably), it is probably safe to assume that it falls under the purview of this rule. I do not have a copy of the Imperfect Lotus however, and so I don't actually know what the charms indicate-A.

Mmmm. Good point. Nothing in the Charms indicates that they beat the cap, but it's bizarre that it would be written in such a way as to make the Form Charm incompatible with the first Charm in the style. If you master the style, you would literally have to be an Essence 10 Solar to be able to get full effect from the combination of the Form and the first Charm, which is strange Charm design indeed... - Hapushet

Yeah, that's really odd. It changes the two charms granting +10 to one charm giving +2 (and another charm that does nothing). I mean, it seems like the basic tactics of the style and its other charms are based around having really high DVs... which could be just an error on the part of the writer. Ah well, either way, but I'd like some 'official' word on this for purposes of the Trial in order to be able to reformulate my strategy. ~WillCoon

Took a peek over at the official wiki - no one's posted any official errata for Imperfect Lotus, or indeed for Scroll of the Monk itself. We'll have to decide ourselve what interpretation we're using for this fight. Personally, crappy +2 DV bonuses that don't combine with other parts of the Style are the purview of Terrestrial styles. I say Cautious Comments should beat the dice cap. Given that you have to just stand there to use it, that seems pretty reasonable. - Hapushet, who has officially added WillCoon as our final contestant

Good enough for me! Thanks for adding me, BTW. -WillCoon

Wordman looks at his watch...

I'm very sorry for the long delay. If you are all still interested in the Discussion, I should be available from now on. -WillCoon