Szilard/MoreThoughtsOnLunars

Lunar quick fix:

1. Choose three favored Attributes. At least two of these must be from the appropriate category for your Caste.

---

2. Charms cost as per Sidereals.

---

3. Make the following Charm changes/additions:

Deadly Beastman Transformation
Cost: 5 motes
Type: Simple
Duration: One Scene
Minimum Charisma: 2
Minimum Essence: 2
Prerequisite Charm: Finding the Spirit's Shape

Other than as above, this is as per Exalted: The Lunars pp. 124-125 with the following exceptions: (1) The beastman form is not one of the Lunar's true forms. (2) Each purchase of the charm, including the first, gives three attribute points and one gift. (3) This charm, on its own, does not increase the Lunar's Tell.

This Charm may only be puchased a number of times equal to a Lunar's permanent Essence score.

Sustaining the Bestial Form
Cost: None
Type: Special
Duration: Permanent
Minimum Stamina: 2
Minimum Essence: 2
Prerequisite Charm: Deadly Beastman Transformation

This Charm alters a Lunar's use of DBT such that it is of Instantaneous duration. The Lunar must use the charm again (or another Charm) to exit the Beastman form.

Once a Lunar has learned Sustaining the Bestial Form, the number of times that they may purchase Deadly Beastman Transformation is raised by one (to the Lunar's permanent Essence +1).

Becoming the Beast
Cost: None
Type: Special
Duration: Permanent
Minimum Charisma: 3
Minimum Essence: 3
Prerequisite Charm: Sustaining the Bestial Form

This Charm alters a Lunar's use of DBT such that it is of Reflexive type, though it can only be used once per turn. The Beastman form is now a true form of the Lunar, and DBT has its full effect upon the Lunar's Tell. Upon purchasing this charm, the Lunar may add two attribute dots and a single Gift to their Beastman Form.

Once a Lunar has purchased Becoming the Beast, that Lunar may no longer purchase the Charm Deadly Beastman Transformation. Instead, that Lunar may raise any of the Attributes of its Beastman form via experience. The cost for doing so is based upon the dots added to that attribute in the Beastman form (as opposed to the Lunar's Attribute rating in Beastman form) whether that comes from Attribute adds or Gifts and uses standard costs for Attributes for Lunars. Adding a new Attribute add (such as Charisma) requires 6 xp (5 xp for a Caste Attribute). New Gifts may also be purchased at the cost of 9 xp each, regardless of a Lunar's Caste.

Calling Luna's Favor
Prerequisite Charm: Becoming the Beast

notes

Some fallout of these changes:

• If you go the long route to power (purchase one level of DBT and buy up to BtB, then add to your beastman form the expensive way), you won't have a noticeable Tell. This is intentional.
• BtB gives your Beastman form a significant level of flexibility.
• Lunars who want the quick route to power will probably put off buying BtB until they've bulked out on DBT.

comments

Comments welcome. This has been rumbling around in my head for a bit. I don't know how much it would really fix things, but I think it might work...

Well... speaking only technically, Calling Luna's Favor could still proceed directly from DBT without a problem.

I put the new prerequisite in for Calling Luna's Favor for two reasons. (1) technically it appeals to me to call upon the powers of one of your natural forms more so than a war form you can assume temporarily. (2) it provides incentive to move up the tree. - szilard

What is the strength of DBT such that you believe it requires being split into three charms? I can see some editing of certain gifts; however, the attribute dice it provides are not more significant than solar dice-adders (even in conjunction with the other Lunar Charms), and the gifts... well, inherent shapeshifting bonuses and a bigger Essence Pool are really all the Lunars have to take them above Terrestrials. - Arafelis

This has been well established elsewhere. GCG believes that DBT justifies the ridiculously high cost of Lunar Charms. My main goal here was to bring down Lunar Charm costs to be equal to those of Sidereals. I do disagree with your assessment, though. DBT can be always-on in a way that Solar die adders can't be. It essentially provides Lunars (even starting lunars) with persistant effects without Charm use. -szilard

I disagree with GCG, frankly. And while it's probably true that DBT is more valuable than a Solar die-adder Charm, it's not so much more so than, say, Flow Like Blood (which has a perfect dodge and a from-unaware dodge as part of its tree)- and FLB leaves the Solar with five free Charms at creation, cheaper freebie buys on Charms, and cheaper xp costs. Getting this DBT revised tree to the same point as the original DBT Charm would leave the Lunar with 5 Charms as well, but (IIRC, don't have the Siddies book on me) they'd STILL have higher XP costs for Charms that are, also still, overall weaker than their Solar counterparts with a very few notable exceptions. Or does anyone else not notice that Lunars require two Survival Charms (and a pre-requisite that buys them conditional dice on the one skill they already inherently do well at) to do what Solars do with the first one in a tree? - Arafelis

I'm not terribly interested in debating this. It is pretty clear that most Lunar charms are priced far too high for what they do. The likely exception to this is DBT. This is my attempt to fix what I perceive as a fairly serious problem without rewriting the entire Lunar Charm set. -szilard

Ok, fair enough. I don't think the problem *can* be fixed without rewriting the entire Lunar Charm Trees (and in fact have a page NewLunarOrchard for people who wish to do just that to link off of), but we'll just agree to disagree. -Arafelis

Addendum: Without Appearance Charms, you essentially are telling Changing Moon Caste to pick a free Attribute to get a discount on. I'm not sure whether or not I agree with this (as they've incorporated three castes into one and their anima power, not mimicking scent or sound, is a tad weaker than the No Moons'), but it *does* seem a little unfair to the other Castes. (Also Arafelis)

Right now, I think the Changing Moons get screwed because there are no Appearance Charms. Similarly, this provides flexibility to all Lunars regardless of Caste... so I don't see how it is unfair to the others. I'm also thinking about changing Embracing the Beast to be a Stamina Charm or something, just to balance things out a bit. -szilard

Er- screwed? Actually, it makes them more powerful; while even a flexible and strong Full Moon Lunar will be locked out all the Stamina Charms, a Changing Moon Caste only needs to be charismatic and manipulative. So, in other words, in order to get *all* their Caste Charms, they only need two attributes, while the other Castes need three (And yes, there are approximately equal numbers of Charms for Changing Moon and Full Moon, with (IIRC) a few less for Full Moon). In the case of your system, this means that the other castes still need three attributes to get all the Charms associated with their caste, but the Changing Moons get to 'branch out' and pick one other attribute as favored instead. - Arafelis

This cuts both ways. There would, note, be nothing stopping a Full/No Moon from taking Charisma or Manipulation as favored - which would give them access to 1/2 the Changing Moon Charms, whereas a Changing Moon wouldn't be able to get favored access to more than 1/3 of either the Full or No Moon Charms. Though... I may look over some social-based Charms and change their attribute affiliations. Not a huge deal. Largely, though, my complaint about favored attributes is just that they are so rigid. One of the complaints I've heard (a lot) is that Lunars only have a few reasonable builds - and those are fairly rigidly Caste dependent. I tend not to wholly agree with those complaints, but I'd still like to see more variability within each Caste. -szilard

Need? Interesting choice of words. Note that the only truly 'must-have' Strength Charm that is likely too deep in a tree to take at creation is Tiger Claw Swat, and that's only for melee builds. A Full Moon need only take Dexterity and Stamnia to fill out his dice-adder, defensive, and soak-adder competencies, including access to one of the rare Lunar reflexive defenses - Snake Body Technique (Dex). A Lunar only 'needs' Strength if he plans to dip heavily into the grappling builds, and that's something of a large 'if', given that it is almost exclusively a better idea to favor Charisma and get DBT. Similarly, a No Moon doesn't 'need' all three of his Caste attributes - a sorceror can do with Perception and Intelligence, and a nonsorceror can skimp on Int because it applies primarily to the Sorcery branch of Charms.

In the case of your system, this means that the other castes still need three attributes to get all the Charms associated with their caste, but the Changing Moons get to 'branch out' and pick one other attribute as favored instead. Note that this is a horrific flaw with Lunars that is being addressed, not worsened, by the fix - it allows a Lunar to favor the lead-in Charms to his Caste's charms, instead of having to slog through as many as 4 out-of-type Charms to get to one Charm he favors. ~ BerserkSeraph

I agree with you as of right now. However, my agreement status will change as (heh, if) more Lunar Charms are published, because it's impossible to predict in advance exactly how they'll grow or scatter tree- and attribute- wise. It looks like the Solar corebook is going to be revised before that point, but still- just because the Lunars have X charms for each attribute right now doesn't mean they won't increase. I do, however, expect them to stay roughly in proportion. - Arafelis still thinks there should be Appearance Charms!

I have mixed feelings. Personally, I don't think Appearance should be an attribute, but should, instead, be dealt with through Merits and Flaws. Barring that, the Aeonverse version of Appearance, in which a high Appearance means you are imposing or memorable rather than pretty should have been used. If it had been, Appearance Charms would make sense. As it is - given the current official role of Appearance - Appearance Charms are probably inappropriate (unless there were some with Max Appearance - which would be odd). -szilard

I agree completely about the unsuitability of Appearance as an Attribute, and that high Appearance should be a function of how memorable one is rather than how pretty one is. However! Given the existance of the Appearance stat and the relative difficulty of writing it out of Exalted (it's possible if one were to mod over the new WoD ST system, but... difficult. Very difficult), I think that it should be given a better-defined role and incorporated into the system more thoroughly. Right now it's the bastard child of stats, with really no benefits.

Appearance should be responsible for: First impressions, surface interaction, voice, scent, and most interaction with strangers (ie, someone whose Nature you don't know or have a good guess at in character. This is why Socialize is important for charismatic or manipulative characters). There *are* circumstances one might use Manipulation or Charisma here, but not as universally as they are now. For instance:

• Performing before a crowd: Appearance + Performance. Many professional musicians, dancers, et cetera are absolute assholes with a poor understanding of other humans, but they can put on beautiful shows.
• Intimidating someone your physical equal: Appearance + Presence. App 1 characters aren't so much hideous as just pitiable. Now, there might be other social reasons one would be afraid of an App 1 character (ie, they've got a horrible disease) which are situational effects, but not inherent.
• Creating a performance piece can be handled through Appearance and Craft, although Intelligence and Performance might also be appropriate (I personally would say it's a Craft skill in which one may add dice with a Performance roll). Aesthetics are important.
• Feinting in combat could just as easily be Appearance as Dexterity or Manipulation- in fact, Appearance + Martial Arts would be an excellent method of feinting if one is using a 'graceful' style (or being lewd).
• Don't know the new trader that's just come to town? Manipulation can backfire and he won't know you well enough for your Charisma to back you up, but Appearance + Beauracracy would do a superb job of haggling as you act imposing, clueless, or even just 'cool.' Really, folks, was Keanu Reeves a hit as Neo because of his superior Charisma- or was it the shades, hair, and jacket?

• Last but not least, Appearance would make a great modifier in Influence and Contacts -related rolls. The possibilities boggle the mind.

Now that I've spent all that time on dice rolls, I'll humbly point out that the vast majority of Lunar Charms seem to have an attribute picked almost at random. Shapeshifting currently relies largely on one's ability to alter another's perceptions. This would be great if Lunar shapeshifting were entirely illusory, but as it stands, one's control over one's own Appearance should be much more important.

This makes me think, actually. Perhaps Full Moons should favor Physical + Appearance + Perception, Changing Moons should favor Social + Dexterity + Wits, and No Moons should favor Mental + Stamina + Manipulation. Hm? - Arafelis apologises for the length and will move the Appearance ideas to a seperate page if requested.

Okay, so, I didn't read the whole comment thread here, so I might have missed something important, and I apologise. But, Arafelis, you say that "DBT is more valuable than a Solar die-adder Charm, it's not so much more so than, say, Flow Like Blood...." Now, this statement has me boggling. You're saying that DBT, a Charm that practically every Lunar who is competitive in Celestial combat has, which has one prerequisite and can be improved as the Lunar becomes more experienced, is not much better than a five-prerequisite Solar Charm that is specifically defensive in nature. If by "not much better," you mean "staggeringly superior in a variety of manners," then I agree! This, I believe, is the problem Szilard is trying to deal with; DBT is more or less the best, most versatile and customizeable Charm in the game, and it's possessed by the splat that, in general, has the most idiosyncratic, narrow-scoped, interdependent Charms which aren't intended to be used by themselves. This is a marvel of design inconsistency! - willows

I agree with the premise of repairing the Lunar Charm structure, but not with the method chosen. Some of the individual gifts in DBT are notably overpowered, but the Charm itself is not- fixing the Lunar Charms by weakening their single highly valuable one in order to make all their other weak Charms (as noted above, a Lunar requires two Survival Charms, which have a pre-requisite, to do what Solars do at the top of one of their cascades) still cost more than Solar Charms doesn't seem nearly sufficient to me. A Solar can get Flow Like Blood for the same price a Lunar would pay to get DBT to the level of its original in szilard's system, and Flow Like Blood + prerequisites is of at least the same utility that DBT is (a perfect defense without a willpower or health level cost, a reflexive scene-long persistant defense, and a dodge-unseen Charm balances out the ability to hit really hard. I am exempting the two DBT Healing gifts from this analysis, because I agree they are extremely overpowered). &Arafelis

I still don't get it. You have supporting points, but I cannot guess your thesis! You seem to be saying, "Solars are better than Lunars," and, like, duh. That's how things are. The thing is, this change makes Lunars generally better; globally reducing the cost of their Charms improves Lunar parity. So I don't understand your complaint. Are you saying that, "Assuming DBT is not overpowered (which is not the case), szilard's fix doesn't do enough"? - willows

Stated plainly: I agree with szilard that Lunars should be more powerful. I disagree that a) reducing XP costs alone is the best way to do this and b) the DBT Charm needs significant changes to make it balanced. I agree that Resilience of Nature and Wound Knitting Power are overpowered, but do not agree that all the gifts are equally powerful (which seems to be the assumption for szilard charging the same XP cost for each). Clear? - Arafelis

My goal is explicitly not to rewrite Lunars and make them perfect. That's a large task. This is supposed to be a quick fix to make them better not perfect via minimal changes. Reducing XP costs is, I think, crucial to that task. Right now I am playing in a Solar game in which their is one No Moon Lunar PC. We are up near 75 xp and she's bought one Charm. That's just not right. You don't think that DBT needs significant changes to make it balanced? I disagree, and I don't think that the regeneration gifts are the only issue with them (or even, necessarily, the biggest issue with them). Moreover - and this is an important bit - if I reduced Charm costs and kept DBT unchanged, that would just encourage every Lunar to buy up to their Essence in DBT (which, to me, speaks to the inherent brokenness of the Charm). -szilard

It doesn't really bother me- that's like saying that Sidereal Martial Arts are broken as a whole because essentially every Sidereal has them. The DBT Charm is Lunar compensation for not having any of their own Martial Arts styles and not being able to learn Sidereal level ones at all. I am less in favor of reducing Lunar Charm XP costs than I am of increasing the balance of every other Lunar Charm, which is obviously not the quick fix you want. If I were to assign an XP cost representing the value of non-combat Lunar Charms right now, it would probably be 9 XP for unfavored and 7 for favored; not because all the Charms are poor, but because the trees are littered with speedbumps and unecessarily split effects (thus making many useful effects cost 18 XP for unfavored and 14 for favored). ...Incidentally, how many spells has your No Moon player bought? - Arafelis

She's bought more spells than Charms... at least three I can think of... and has invested in Essence 4 so as to be able to access Celestial Circle Sorcery (and an extra level of DBT, as she had three). She didn't really consider Charms a viable option. Also note that I'm not interested in making a distinction between combat charms and non-combat charms - the line isn't so cut and dried (where would, for example, Lion's Roar Method fit?), and I have a serious problem with the idea of Charms costing less for Lunars than for Solars. Yeah, Lunar trees have speedbumps, but I don't know if they are significantly worse than the Solar speedbumps. The big difference to me is that the Lunar speedbumps might be non-caste attribute based. That's one of the reasons I tossed in the flexibility in Caste attributes. Want to be a Lunar archer? Go ahead and take both Perception and Dexterity as favored. -szilard

"Some of the individual gifts in DBT are notably overpowered, but the Charm itself is not." I disagree with you. As initially written, it is a relatively inexpensive reflexive charm that commits no essence and gives you a power boost for as long as you want it... and it has one prerequisite which is, essentially, required anyway for all Lunars. You seem to be saying that the power boost part of that is potentially overpowered, but the Charm itself isn't. How does that make sense? -szilard

?! You charge seperate XP for the gifts but don't understand how they are distinct from the Charm? That's kind of like saying, "I think that Solars are inherently more powerful than Lunars, and even if we changed all the Solar Charms, they would still be more powerful."

In other words, the gifts are subsets of the Charm (like Charms are subsets of the Exalt type). The mechanics of the gifts can be altered without altering the Charm. For instance, one might establish a table something like this for Resilience of Nature:

||# of purchases:  || 1    || 2    || 3    || 4     ||
||Bashing Heal Time||1 hour||10 min||1 min ||1 round||
||Lethal to Bashing||1 day ||1 hour||10 min||1 min  ||

This would alter the balance of the Charm as a whole without changing how it is purchased. - Arafelis

I see the mechanics of the gifts as, explicitly, a subset of the mechanics of the Charm. If all any of the gifts ever did was give the Lunar chocolate on the Feast of Ascending Fire, would you say that the Charm was unchanged? What I did was force the gifts (after a certain point) to be separate from the base Charm. This is explicitly not done in the Lunars book. I did this for three main reasons. (1) Conceptually, I wanted to make a distinction between a power-up form and a true form. (2) Practically, I wanted a powerful beastman form to be available without a significant Tell to more subtle Lunars who were willing to spend more xp to get to that point. (3) I wanted the beastman form to be a bit more customizeable than it currently is. - szilard

Wait, when did "Changing the text of the Charm" become inherently the same as "Changing the effect of the Charm?" The Charm text- (The Charm itself) is unchanged. The Charm effects (how much power a purchase would grant the Lunar) would have changed. I agree with points 2 and 3, and have no opinion of point 1 (Is a Lunar who chooses a Tyrant Lizard totem entering 'power up' or 'true' form when they use Finding the Spirit's Shape?). As ever, this seems to be a case of agreeing with the goal but disagreeing with the method- I don't think the effects of your change are sufficient, and in some cases are quite misguided (How does your Lunar player feel about these changes, assuming she has sufficient experience with Lunars/ Exalted to feel confident in an opinion?). The discussion has been useful, but it's pretty apparent that neither of us will change our minds- I'll write up what I think would be a better way to handle DBT as soon as I crunch some of it out, and you can come over and harrangue me for a change.  ;) &Arafelis