DigSenPowerCombatWeapons/ThisIsAllWrong

From TweakingPowerCombatWeapons, houseruled versions of many hand-to-hand weapons.

Problems? Concerns? Hate what I've done?

Errrr... on the FistWeapons thing: I like the speed and rate increases for fist and foot, but that's about it. Accuracy, Defense, and Damage already increase with skill. Including peircing damage and the ability to block lethal barehanded makes several Charms pointless. If you are running a heroic mortals game, this might be fine. Otherwise, the entire balance of MA Charms is utterly off (look at Snake Style, which gets mileage off of peircing attacks) and several Charms that allow the unarmed parrying of lethal become even more worthless. -szilard

Hmm. Upon consideration, Piercing damage and Lethal-parrying are definitely too much, and step on the toes of the Exalted. As to Acc, Def, and Damage increasing with skill, I basically didn't feel like they increase enough. I'll go reexamine the stats in the harsh, rational light of day.

I just dunno. On the one hand, making Fist and Foot too powerful sorta eliminates the need for a lot of weapons. On the other, I could always say something like "I want to encourage more hand-to-hand badassery in my games" - but really, what's the point of having these in a public place at all if I'm the only one that wants to use them? So I'm contemplating reworking the Fist stats based on the idea that Bruce Lee's 'one-inch punch' would be less a normal strike and more a "haymaker," and basically toning down the Fist and Foot rank bonuses. - DigitalSentience

Here's a suggestion: Institute non-charm stances that a person can take in unarmed combat. Essentially, these would be using your body as a weapon in different ways. These stances might have ability and/or attribute minimums and could be switched between reflexively on a characters action. Each stance would be more-or-less optimized for a different thing - multiple attacks (less damage, higher rate), defense (high defense, decent rate, low speed), damage (high damage, low rate, low defense), etc. I'd try to keep them all balanced with base fist/foot stats when they have low prereqs, but there could be stances requiring high levels of MA or Brawl that are substantially better (though none should, ideally, dominate the base stats in all areas). - szilard

Hoo boy. That at once sounds both really cool and like a pain in the ass. I love it! Thank you, but when you say "base fist stats" I assume you mean the base stats listed in the PG, or a close variation thereon. - DigitalSentience

Yeah, that is what I mean. There is also an extension to this: each MA Style could have an associated stance that you would have to stay in while you assume the Form Charm of that style (though you could assume it otherwise as well). This would provide an additional mechanical reason for the one form at a time rule. It would also allow you to beef up some of the wimpier form charms (Celestial Monkey, Righteous Devil) a bit. Given the number of MA trees, there would likely be several such stances that were mechanically identical, but they could have different flavor. - szilard

*twitch* Erk... - DigitalSentience

I suggest that you make such a progression, but don't tie it to an Ability; rather, set it up as a Background that's explicitly able to be purchased in play, with each rank providing better unarmed attacks; this way, it doesn't overpower the armed systems by being dramatically more point-efficient. - willows

And willows, I can't tell if you mean a progression like the one I put forth, or a "stance"-based progression like szilard is proposing.- DigitalSentience

Yeah, that's cause of the silly indenting issue. I mean, more specifically, "I think that being able to acquire better unarmed attack stats is an okay idea, though I would be disinclined to do it. But, if you really wanted to, I would not associate them with an unarmed combat Ability! This makes buying dots in that Ability essentially equivalent to buying a weapon combat Ability and an artifact weapon. The solution to this is to make a separate Trait, a Background, for instance, that fist users must buy to improve their attack stats." - willows

Sorry about all that indenting business. Anyways, thanks for the suggestion! Since I couldn't bear to just delete my Fist and Foot rank-progressions, I've put them in a sub-page, with a note about the Background. I'm not sure if I'd buy it myself, either, but I gotta admit I think it's kinda cool. - DigitalSentience

This doesn't really sound like a Background to me... while some backgrounds do reflect training (experience, knowledge, sorcery...), those have always struck me as cludges... and this expands your basic abilities in a different manner than those others (which are more of a shorthand for 'extra xp'). -szilard

As a side-note, I think it's pretty silly to have different stats for fists and feet. - w

Duly noted. But, since this whole endeavor is an exercise in anal-retentiveness, and kicks and punches are very different beasts (in my own limited experience)... *shrug* - DigitalSentience

There are different kinds of kicks and different kinds of punches as well. Perhaps call them Light and Fierce attacks. - Malikai

I've done something like that. Check it out on FistWeapons/FistAndFoot - DigitalSentience

Do you have any plans to formulate suggestions on how these altered statistics might interact with brawling aids, or weapons that generally augment punches, kicks, etc.? ~Andrew02

I've put my thoughts up. Let me know what you think. - DigitalSentience

I can understand them, and the thematic idea behind them, but I do not agree with A and C. Where I am coming from is that the top tier swords and daiklaives are for the grand masters, because it just makes sense to give the grand masters the best daiklaives since they'll get more utility out of them. You give the best composite bows and powerbows to the grand master archers, because they'd get more from a powerbow that can automatically conjure an arrow from the quiver to the bow after it releases the first one (i.e. a higher rate). I am less certain about martial arts, but the masters of the styles with a style weapon, in my ill-informed and not-so-humble opinion, need to master that weapon as it pertains to the style to get up there to grand master. Apples and oranges, I guess, but you give someone who bought into 5 ranks a Smashfist, and the Way of the Fist just seems to become obsolete. Not that you have to use a Smashfist, but if everyone else suddenly has some magic weapons, and you're still slugging away with bare fists and feet, you're probably going to be back into the position that made you buy up Way of the Fist in the first place. From a balance stand point, I agree with point B the most. But I do not think it makes unarmed as competitive with weapons. I does not sit well with me that some punk with Rank 1 can slip on a Fighting Gauntlet and match someone with Rank 5, and that the person with Rank 5 will not be appreciably more well off than the Rank 1 person with the Fighting Gauntlet. I am not entirely liking how powerful the Kick gets in relation to the Fist, either. ~Andrew02

One advantage of going unarmed that is often overlooked is situations where weapons are not appropriate. Not as often in Exalted, but it does happen. You can also not have your weapons broken or destroyed. I do think it could use a little tweaking. The Acc bonus is very good already, but a slight damage increase probably wouldn't be out of the picture. I would put in an "extra" ability at 4 and 5 dots though. At that point you are paying 2 per 1 and should get a little extra. One should be parry lethal, otherwise unarmed will never compare with weapons. Parrying lethal weapons is not unheard of in real life, and isn't that difficult in Exalted. I welcome allowing heroic mortals to do it.

The other I'm not sure. Definitely not a flat conversion to lethal. Maybe something to represent conditioning aspect of the training? Or maybe a special maneuver?

As for the weapons. Rapiers are not entirely, but almost totally worthless on defense. They parry other rapier's fine, but against anything with any amount of weight and they just get tossed aside. Fencer's main defense comes from dodging, not parrying. As for knives having a higher rate than fists, that does intrigue me. However, I would probably say fists can be as quick as knives can. Just as a help to balance. Wind fire wheels are very defensive weapons, but somewhat difficult to get the correct angles on attacks to actually cause damage. - Jaelra

Thanks for the weapon input, Jaelra. As for my thoughts on Way of the Fist interacting with Brawling Aids, it basically boils down to this: what I'd like to do, ever since hitting upon the idea of Way of the Fist in the first place, is have some way for melee weapons to improve in the hands of someone who actually knows how to use them, the way unarmed attacks are doing here. So, there's a "total goober who just picked up the weapon" set of stats, and a "uber-badass who's lived and breathed with this weapon in their hand for 10 years" set of stats, and maybe one to three levels inbetween. But that would involve a massive amount of work, and I really don't want it that bad. So, yes, it's a little odd that unarmed attacks are improved by Way of the Fist and Brawling aids are not, and Melee weapons are still treated as though wielded by a generic user, but I'm not sure what other alternatives I have. - DigitalSentience

One suggestion: A weapon user cannot get the benefit of a Speed, Accuracy, Defense, or Rate higher than his ability in using the weapon. - szilard

Ah, but that only handicaps poor users, it doesn't really reward the upper levels in Melee. It's nice as a 'quick and dirty' way to reflect the same idea as Way of the Fist, although I'm not sure I'd include Speed. Maybe Ability X 2 for Speed. - DigitalSentience

I will say this: I tried to tune things so that someone with Rank 5 is probably still gonna kick the ass outta someone with a comparable MA or Brawl score and just a pair of fighting gauntlets. If you think I failed to do that, I'll reexamine the Fist and Foot scores. But I don't think a comparison with smashfists and other artifact weapons is even relevant; those are the oversized anime weapons of the gods, so of course they're going to kick some unarmed guy's ass, even if he IS a Grandmaster of the Invincible Lotus style.

On the same note, what part of Foot seems too powerful with regards to Fist? And, Jaelra, I'm not sure I understand what you are recommending - re-introducing "can parry lethal" to high-rank Way of the Fist? - DigitalSentience

The Way of the Fist Rank 5 guy can compete with the guy with comparable brawl or ma and the fighting gauntlets. He just doesn't seem to clearly outclass the guy if they both used thee gauntlets. The advantage of Way of the Fist vanishing if you use a weapon seems wrong somehow. I think the point I was trying to make is that, in my mind, it made no sense that someone who is a grand master of punching should suddenly lose all of the training and whatnot that made him a punching grandmaster as soon as he slips on anything, whether it be a simple cestus or an elaborate smashfist. I think I did say "apples and oranges" about what I posited. The master of the great sword is made an even more terrible force to be reckoned with when you replace that great sword with a grand daiklaive. Why not do something analogous for the master of Way of the Fist?

Feet does a great deal more damage than Fist. The lesser accuracy is probably what hurts most, but it is only a single point. The decreased rate is not much of a disadvantage for Feet, as there are no charms that allow you to buy dice to offset multiple action penalties. Taking 5 actions in a turn with Brawl or MA is going to kill your pool. The four more points of damage overcompensates for what is lost, in my ill-thought out opinion. ~ Andrew02

I like the idea of not using brawling aids, and fully agree with it. More of just thematics more than anything else. And the thing you are missing on the balance is soak. One of the main thing I have noticed that is a quick route to success for essence using beings fighting unarmed is splitting dice pools. Split your dice pool 5 ways and kill you pool, well, not entirely. You are still getting, especially with Way of the Fist, a good 8-9 dice on the first attack. By the fifth attack you may be down to 4 or 5 dice, but their defenses are usually lower at that point as well. Your either costing an essence user essence, which is good or you are getting ping damage on their soak, which is also good. Rapid punching is an excellent unarmed tactic. Kicking is a little harder to put into effect, and performs abysmally against armor or any soak adders. Honestly, kicking is actually a little less effective than punching. Like the ideas though.

As for the parrying lethal, I beleive on each rank it says cannot parry lethal? Change rank four or five to can parry lethal unarmed. I believe that once getting 2 per 1 cost, rather than adding extra effectiveness, I prefer versatility. Like adding extra effects. Jaelra

The brawling characters I've played didn't use Brawling Aids either. I think it's cooler looking. Relying on ping to get the job done . . . doesn't seem so cool.

"performs abysmally against armor or any soak adders." Doesn't everything except things like greatswords, or sledges? Soak has never been much of a problem in the games I have played in. The heavy infantry mortals we fought ended up using shields and reinforced breastplates (we just never fight mortals with better armour), and the kick's base damage is enough to blow through the bashing soak granted by the armour. After that, it's Strength and Extra Successes to plow through the Stamina based soak, and most mortals just don't have more than 3. With that Foot, you could dish out some good damage. More, if you use the cheap cheap Ferocious Jab. Fist . . . not so much. Exalted, barring the rare Lunars, didn't really rely on soak. Dragon-Blooded we fight used Dodge lots. Abyssals put up their persistant parry or dodges. ~ Andrew02

Couple of things:
1.) Could you guys watch the formatting a little? I'm having a really hard time telling who said what, and so if I attributed your statements to the wrong person, I apologize.
2.) Jaelra, I had "Can parry Lethal" in with Way of the Fist, at (I believe) Rank 5, but szilard convinced me otherwise. Mostly it was the argument that giving such a thing to mortals treads too much on the feet of the Exalted, but there was also my feeling that, really, parrying lethal unarmed can be done with a stunt anyways. And the only people that have Way of the Fist up to 5 are going to be heroic mortals, anyways, and probably PCs at that, so let 'em just stunt it.
3.) Andrew02, I guess my sentiment is best summarized thusly: someone with Way of the Fist at 5 shouldn't be using cesti, that would be beneath him. And using anything other than a cestus is, mechanically, just not going to be used the same way as his bare fist. A fighting gauntlet is a lot of metal to be waving around, and he hasn't trained to be waving a lot of metal around, he's trained to make his unarmed attacks deadly enough that he doesn't need the metal.
4.) In addition, I'm not buying the argument about the comparison between a Fist master using gauntlets, and a great-sword master using a daiklave. A grand daiklave's just a bigger version of a great-sword; a gauntlet is fundamentally different from a bare hand.
5.) And to both of you: I'm not really balancing Way of the Fist explicitly for Exalted martial artists. It's perfectly feasible for a badass mortal to have fists of lightning that hit like a ton of bricks. But there's no way a mortal's unarmed attacks should ever be all that effective against armored troops, which is what it seems like the discussion is turning towards. I mean, sure, maybe Sensei Badass can take down a single heavily-armored trooper (with the aforementioned ping damage), but any more than that and you're probably talking Exalted territory.
Err... I guess what I'm saying is, it sounds like we have a difference of opinion/taste, and no amount of argument is like to change that. So, let's agree to disagree. - DigitalSentience

Addendum: I don't think I explained myself very well. I changed reason C.) on the FistWeapons/FistAndFoot page, at the bottom, but I'll rephrase it here. Basically, Way of the Fist and the Fist attack represent multiple methods of attack: spearing, striking, chopping, etc., in addition to plain old punching. A cesti-user, on the other hand, is pretty much restricted to hitting people with the metal parts of the brawling aid. And a gauntlet, as I pontificate above, is even further removed from plain old unarmed combat. So, that's why I say Way of the Fist shouldn't stack with brawling aids. - DigitalSentience

I always think of things in terms of the Exalted, so I guess I skimmed over or subconciously ignored the part that said, "this is not just for Exalts, and thus is not scaled for Exalts." I'm not convinced that in the context of Exalted that it would be appreciably different to use a knife hand chop, a ridge hand strike, a palm strike, etc., with a big metal glove on as it is barehanded. I mean, boxers don't have their gloves on all the time when they train, right? Just saying.

But we should let the issue just go dead? ~Andrew02

*grin* Well, that's up to you, I suppose. I, personally, don't plan on arguing about it, since we seem to have different preferences on the matter. But further input is always welcome. - DigitalSentience