ExhilaratedRosewood/TheImmaculatePhilosophyIsntALie

The Immaculate Philosophy Isn't A Lie

The Story Begins

As we all know, the Sidereal created the Immaculate Philosophy as a philosophical infrastructure that would allow the Dragonblooded to rule creation. It was all a lie, a lie to manipulate denizens of creation. Or so they thought.

If you examine the setting a little closer, it is possible to see that all of the problems present in creation are, in essence, derived from the fact that the Immaculate Philosophy has been violated for many years.

Once, long ago, the system known as creation worked well. Oh sure, it had little problems here and there, things that might make it less than a utopia, but as a system, it all worked well. There was no starvation, because technomagic and sorcery ensured perfect weather and bountiful crops. Medical capabilities were probably leaps and bounds beyond our current levels in real life.

And then came the Usurpation. The horrific act of treason and betrayal where the paltry servants who were merely supposed to be helping in minor facilities decided they could rule creation better than those right-wise empowered to do so. Thats right, I'm talking about the Solars killing the Primordials. The first Usurpation. The big one.

And why did they do it? To make the world a better place? No. So the gods would go off and engross themselves in the Games of Divinity, leaving a path for them to step up as number one force in creation. Their greed and the greed of the gods doomed creation. They violated the truths that would later be known as the Immaculate Philosophy for power, and from that moment on the world was doomed.

At this point I would like to step aside for a moment, and stat that I do not believe that the Immaculate Philosophy, or anything like it, is true. Not in real life. There is no divinely laid down right to rule here on Earth, regardless of the number of times different nations have claimed to have it. And before anyone mentally jumps on anyone else (examples removed both to reduce the chances of this site being censored by certain foreign governments and because it really is ubiquitous), us Americans need to take a nice long look at Manifest Destiny.

Now, I'm not stating this to start a political or religious argument, loaded though the comment may have been. I'm stating it to point out the start contrast between that in our world, and the way Creation was run. There was, unquestionably, a divinely mandated rulership of the world. There was an entire bureaucracy of spirits and gods laid out to ensure that everything went well.

The Primordials created the world. They made it work. Then they said "Gods, we have created you to rule creation. Try to do a good job now while we blow off the whole system to play the Games of Divinity. Think of it as being like Creation, only better. Learn from your mistakes and all that."

And while the Gods ruled creation, there were no problems. Well, except for the fact that they wanted more. They ruled creation as an effective government, with the aid of the Exalted, whom they created (at least in official documents) to delegate work to. The system wasn't (at least from what we are led to believe) corrupt, and it worked. Everything was just dandy. The truths put forth in the Immaculate Philosophy insured that the whole world worked perfectly.

Which is why I feel safe asserting that the Immaculate Philosophy is true, as it pertains to the world of Exalted.

While it was held to, everything was great. Once it was violated, a downward spiral started, sucking everything down to Oblivion. The very act of betrayal itself created a previously non-existent entity which by definition insures the destruction of creation.

The gods, being the ones right-wise tasked with ruling creation set up a new pecking order. The put the exalted in charge, and ran off to go snatch up the Games of Divinity. Things settled down. All told, it wasn't actually that bad. Sure, the Solars all went crazy with power and curses, but if you look at the system it wasn't that bad relatively speaking.

Creation still worked. It worked well. It was significantly larger than it is now, effortlessly not only holding off the Wyld but expanding into it. They still had a great technomagical infrastructure. It was (aside from the fact that the Solars were psychopaths and incredibly corrupt) a fairly Utopian environment. There was still no starvation, because technomagic and sorcery continued to ensured perfect weather and bountiful crops. Medical capabilities were still leaps and bounds beyond our current levels in real life. Aside from the occasional monster trying to trample in from the Wyld and, it was a peaceful world with little to no strife. That and the threat that a crazy exalt would decide you were more useful as a necromantic experiment or that you would be better off (excuse my use of cliche examples) inside out decorating a garden.

Everything Comes Full Circle

The Immaculate Philosophy had been violated, but things were only one degree off from how they were supposed to be. It wasn't perfect, and it was getting worse. But it wasn't yet horrible. Then the Sidereal noticed the slide. They said to themselves "Hmm, this isn't good, creation is gonna shit a kidney out one of these days, and we're all going to be screwed." So they engineered the second Usurpation.

The Unconquered Sun straight out said. "Solar Exalted. Thank you for whupping the asses of my enemies. Please, rule creation in my stead." And the Elemental Dragons said "Nice work Exalts. Go do what the Solars tell you to."

And it mostly worked, but not well enough. So the Sidereals thought they could do better. They said "No no no, silly Dragonbloods, you should be ruling creation!" They took a mostly working system and replaced it with a barely working system, because they were afraid the other one would fall apart thanks to the whole "mostly" issue.

The entire act of the Usurpation by the Dragonblooded was a mirror of the Usurpation by the Solars, only this time the Solars are the Primordials, the Sidereal are the Gods, and the Dragonblooded are the Solars. Any Solar who holds a grudge against the Dragonblooded is a hypocrite. They learned from their betters.

All of the sudden, the Immaculate Philosophy as it stood was violated again. Instead of one degree of separation, all of the sudden they were down to two degrees of separation. As the violations got worse, the rate at which creation was getting worse started increasing - drastically. Betraying the Primordials was analogous to throwing shit at a fan. The reign of the Solars was the shit flying through the air. The reign of the Dragonblooded was the shit hitting the fan. And now, the end of the second age, its that same shit finally splattering all over everything you own.

As bad as creation was under the Solars, compare that to the Second Age. Corruption spans the entire bounds of creation, which is significantly smaller than it used to be. Oh sure, you can say they're not as bad as the Solars, but thats an estimation of power, not corruption level. Weather is unpredictable, people starve, there is no global infrastructure, and the average peasant is lucky to make it to thirty. Wars wrack creation, both internally and from external sources. Without some massive intervention, the entire world is on the verge of falling apart.

Certainly there is some apparent massive intervention in the form of the release of the Solars. They have the potential to defeat the enemies of creation and rebuild the first age. On the other hand, we've already seen that a Solar government is a doomed entity. Eventually it will all just fall apart again.

And The Story Ends Where It Began

Does this mean creation is doomed? I don't think so. The betrayal of the Solars came full circle. The solars were freed from their prison, and are reclaiming their birthright, reclaiming the glory of the first age.

I've painted the betrayal of the Solars as a mirror of the betrayal of the Primordials, and I still stand by that. Whats more, I believe that it was done intentionally in the creation of the series. It stands to reason then, that if the Solars were released from their prison, that the Primordials will be too. The Primordials with the power to save creation.

The Solars are striking back at their betrayers though. When the Primordials break free, it isn't likely to be pretty for the Gods or the Exalts. The power to save creation, but also the power to remake it.

Creation has the potential to be saved, but I don't think its going to enjoy the process and I can assure you its going to fight back.

Afterwords

I had a basic grasp of the concepts in this before I started writing it, but it was not completely thought out. This has given me a completely new grasp on the concept... not so much of the Yozi... but definitely of the Infernal Exalted and Yozi cults now. They really are the good guys. Anyway want to run an Infernal Game for me?

Wow, I really want the book they mentioned about the return of the Scarlet Empress. Not that I expect it any time soon, look at how long it took them to resolve WoD.

Also, at this point I still consider this potentially a work in progress. I will refine it as necessary. Suggestions and observations, even direct arguments are welcome.

Comments and Discussion

Depending on what people say, and whether I continue to write responses as long as the original post, I may seperate the things I feel fall under the "Comment" and "Discussion" catigories.

Comment From FrivYeti

Interesting concept, and very well-written. I would like to point out, however, that time and again the writings of the game have said that the Primordials were far, far from good rulers. Regarding the discussion on "no starvation, medical capabilities, etc.", we know fairly categorically that this wasn't true. Humans had no science, no technology, only what little magic the Dragon Kings had deigned to give them. The Primordials did such joyful things as horribly torturing and mutilating a sentient being and then creating horrific shambling parodies of him just to tease their crippled brother. They created a being made of perfection and then enslaved him to endless work. They constantly picked on each other, ran roughshod over Creation, and generally used it as a morphable punching bag. It was like when your eight-year old brother picked up a game of SimCity and said "I wonder what happens if I trigger every disaster".

The problem with the Immaculate Philosophy is not the divine mandate to rule by itself. It is that it teaches that there is absolutely no circumstance under which it is okay to aspire above your station. Striving for greatness is what CREATES Solars and Lunars. If everyone followed the Immaculate Philosophy, no one would have that greatness, and the world would fall. - FrivYeti

Begin Excessivly Long Responce To FrivYeti Which Prevented Me From Accomplishing Anything Tonight

Point taken, although I do have a few responses. Some of them may even be represented a little more on the extreme end than I actually believe because I have this uncontrollable habit of trying to play Devil's Advocate. Mind you, these are pretty categorically comments about your first paragraph. Consider the second paragraph conceded, from the context of that viewpoint. Well, ok, I admit it - I do have something to say about the viewpoint.

First off, I have to admit that the Primordials were fairly lousy rulers, especially during their creationist phase. Now excuse me for horrible misparaphrasing, because this isn't actually what you said, but the basic theme behind your first paragraph was "The Primordials were mean to humans. They didn't give them any respect.

Do you respect ants? I'm not asking if you avoid crushing them, I'm asking if you respect them. As for the crushing them bit - I do. Not out of maliciousness, but when they're in my way, wandering around my kitchen or what not. I don't feel feel any remorse either.

What about bacteria. When you throw out moldy left overs, do you think about how that affects the life of that mold? Ever sanitized a counter? Done your laundry? Washed your hands? So where do you get off criticizing the fact that the Primordials picked on humans every once in a while? The analogy holds. Compared to the sort of intellectual and spiritual energy Primordials represent, humans may as well be ants or bacteria. I mean, sure, we like to think of ourselves as better than everything else. I know I do. Heck, I am, though I try to repress it, enough of an elitist I often find myself thinking of myself as not only better non-humans, but even a decent portion of other humans. And I feel bad about it, both because that goes against my personal moral code, and because on an objective level, I have to admit that its wrong.

On an objective large scale level, humans are irrelevant. From an objective view, the things that separate humans from animals are negligible. So we have tools, build cities, language, art. We're still creatures of instinct. Humans are more likely to react to a situation emotionally and instinctively than they are mentally or objectively. We may be animals with cool toys, but we're not any better than them. Our history is full of genocide, betrayal, survival of the fittest - just like all successful animals.

Now, before I get to the point that was leading up to, I would like to make a distinction. As I see it, there are two phases of Primordial rule. Its not gone into terribly thoroughly in the background material, but I have always felt it was strongly hinted at. In the beginning, the Primordials were creating the universe. As part of the creative process, they killed a lot of stuff, reshaped a lot of stuff, even pulled stuff apart while it was still alive and not bother to put it back together properly. I imagine those entities felt about the same way about it that these paragraphs would feel about me writing them if they were sentient. I bet as far as the Primordials are concerned, the intelligence level of these paragraphs and those sentient beings is about on par.

The second phase is the one where the Gods are ruling creation with their Exalted servants doing all the hard work. The one where the Primordials are off playing the Games of Divinity, and by and large don't give a damn about creation. That's the one I was mostly talking about. And this is all speculation on my part because the distinction isn't clearly made, but I always got the impression that during this phase, there was none of the rampant abuse the pinned on the Primordials. Not necessarily because they had realized they're mistakes, but simply because they had moved beyond it. The businessman walking around with his shiny briefcase doesn't care about ants more than when he used a magnifying glass to burn their hill as a kid, he just moved on to different things. This then is the age I was talking about being so damn much better than the Solar or Terrestrial ages. Sure, it still wasn't great for humans - but I doubt it was that bad. Being second on the pecking order isn't exactly last. Yeah so there was the occasional still-beating heart sacrifice to the Unconquered Sun, but we can't go blaming that on the Primordials now? Not when the servants of the US are the ones to betray them.

Also, not to be making horribly provocative political comments yet again, but I would wager that percentage wise, more people suffer from police brutality in the United States each year than suffered at the hands of the Primordials during this time phase. To a lesser degree certainly, but in terms of ratios...

Less provocatively and more relevant to the discussion. I doubt as many people suffered at the hand of the Primordials as did at the hands of the Solars.

On top of that, I would be willing to wager that ratio wise, more people suffer at the hands of the Dragonbloods in the Realm circa second age than suffered at the hands of the Solars in the first age.

Each step farther away, if you discount the initial creation process, just makes it worse and worse. Hence the Immaculate Philosophy aspect. The severity of the atrocities decreases based on power available, but not the fact that atrocities on lesser life forms are inherent to the system known as existence.

Now, back to my excessively pessimistic previous statements about overarching objective viewpoints rendering human life as worthless. I swear I'm normally an optimist. But anyway, from that viewpoint, we have the following summaries: The world as dictated by the Primordials worked on a sustainable level. The world under the Solars was doomed to fail, and slowly was preparing to fall in on itself. The world under the Dragonblooded was a derailed train falling down a cliff into a pit of lava filled with magical sharks. Hence the Immaculate Philosophy aspect. If the Dragonblooded were ever overthrown in a massive human rebelion, I'm pretty sure between the Fairfolk and the Deathlords the analogy would be the same train quickly melting in said lava. Fire and brimstone and all that. And the sharks would be very said, because only exalted have charms that would allow themselves to live long enough to be eaten.

If you want to make a Sim analogy, I think a better game to compare the Primordial view of creation to is SimEarth. You have just long enough to think "My sentient arthropods are having a war. How quaint." before its over and they've moved on. You blink, you miss it. Its not important anyway - they just spread around and keep on going.

Now for the second paragraph I claimed I was going to cede to you. Oh how naive I was. Once I get on a roll its hard to stop me. Striving for greatness may be what creates Solars and Lunars, but it isn't what creates Heroes. Heroes merely do what needs to be done, when it needs to happen, regardless of the consequences to themselves. A true hero however, must also look at whether it truly is the time for something to happen, whether it truly is right to take action. Sometimes the heroic thing to do is not stand up. And believe me, when that time comes, its the hardest thing in the world to do. The sort of hero that you get when you "Strive for Greatness" is the sort of hero they talk about in Serenity. "A hero is someone who gets other people killed.

Now, back to the argument that is actually relevant to the conversation (I'm bad with tangents, sorry). You're claiming that "If everyone followed the Immaculate Philosophy, no one would have that greatness, and the world would fall." I disagree though. The Solars rose above themselves and it truly did make them great. Rather than stopping the world from falling though, they caused its fall. That's the whole point of the Immaculate Philosophy. The same goes for the Dragonblooded. What they did was truly an act of greatness. It also exponentially increased the rate at which creation was doomed to fall into Oblivion. The Immaculate Philosophy was upheld perfectly on both occasions in the sense that they stepped above their stations, and Bad Things happened.

Another big difference between Earth and Creation is the issue of souls, and more importantly, reincarnation. You're put in your place on the world so that your soul can learn, and then move on. The more enlightened you get, the higher up your next life will be. But people try to rush the whole system. They want to be better off now. Its like kids deciding they know better than their parents and setting the house on fire trying cook their shoes on the stove. The Solars are the 7 year old who comes up with the idea, and the Dragonblooded are the 5 year old who tries to put it out by throwing paper towels on it to smother it.

My apologies for that analogy by the way.

Also, I would just like to offer up in offer in contrast to the last bits of this argument. Just because I'm claiming that the entire world in Exalted is screwed because people are trying to step above their stations as mandated by their divinely inspired superiors, and that the world is worse off every time someone tries to change thing for the better, I do not want anyone reading this to think I'm saying the same thing about real life or their life. Our world is shaped by the people who fight for a better life, fight to make the world a better place for everyone. Its shaped by them, for the better. NEVER, ever, let anyone tell you that you aren't good enough, for any reason. In our world, there is no social or religious or physical trait that means that you can't rise up to a level with the best of humans. Your gender, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, social class, religious beliefs, or physical state have no baring on how intelligent, competent, important, capable of succeeding, or capable of being loved you are.

That stuffs all determined by genetics and luck.

Its pretty bad when you write something and by the end of it you're so fed up with what you wrote that you have to violently attack the very concepts behind it huh?

In summary, I still maintain that the Immaculate Philosophy is accurate with regards to the Exalted world, and that the Greatness-striving done by the Solars only made the world a worse place.

- ExhilaratedRosewood

Begin retort from BogMod that I mostly end up agreeing with. Also, commentary by Azurelight

I think you make out the era of the past a bit different then it was. This whole no starvation and increadible medical technology? Yes the Dragon Kings and the Mountain Folk might have managed that but their technology is less then the Solars devised in their later years. And its not like the Primordials needed to eat or needed medicines for themselves. Sorcery had not been developed by the normal denizens of Creation and there were still wars such as between the Lintha and the Dragon Kings. And humans were slaves to be sacrificed by the Dragon Kings. The Gods tried to keep everything running even with the occasional descision by a Primordial to add new mountains here or there atop allready existing ecosystems or decide that it would be neat if all the animals in an area were suddenly shadow beasts. By and large the Primordials were dicks, even to each other.

The Exalted took up the Gods offer for a very good reason. To be free, to make their own destinies in the world. Created from the disection of one of Autocthon's toys they had nothing and were at the mercy of their masters the Dragon Kings, any gods that wished to do something, the Primordials and the various behemoth extant in the world quite happy to have a fleshy snack. The Gods may have not been completely selfless in their motivation to take down the Primordials but they it wasn't completely selfish. Compared to Primordials humans intellectually and spiritually must not not even show up as a blip which is why there was no geas there. Gods were another matter. They could have the spiritiul power and outlooks to register to those primal titans. So they were enslaved to make sure Creation worked for eternity. They had their job eternal. They were sentient though and of course resented what they had been tasked and created to do. These aren't cogs in a machine but thinking feeling things left to make sure Creation worked so the Primordials could play around with it. You can say the Greed of the gods ruined Creation or that the monsterous nature of Creation's creators doomed it. The Primordials didn't make the gods to rule Creation, they were made to make sure it kept working. The Primordials ruled it.

Not sure where this bit about the Gods ruling Creation with the Exalted during the time of the Primordials come from. Seems to me that they were created in secret and only thanks to Gaia and Autocthon. For all the greed you would say the Gods have it would have amounted to nothing if the other Primordials were not so horrible to their brothers and life in general to make those two turn on them. They were trained and armed in secret and then struck down the Primordials and locked them away. The Gods gave Creation to the Exalted to rule as their reward while they went to Heaven where they could have their rests. It wasn't all rest afterall they did keep their Bureaucracy going to keep Creation running but they could now. Yes the Games did corrupt them but its possible they didn't know it would be quite that addicting. After they were gone Creation could have been that utopia forever. Could the First Age have continued without interuption or threat if the Exalted had not been cursed? Seems that way to me.

You claim that during there were two phases to the Primordial rule. As I have said before I dont think there was a time where the Gods ruled with the Exalted doing their work while the Primordials were around. The Primordials may hhave been businessmen with shiney briefcases but they still had their cosmic poker game to play and you know what, between those turns they would still have fun burning and slowly picking ants apart, or pouring water down the anthill or whathave you. Why? Cause it was fun. Enough sentience to make it fun to play with them. And humans weren't second on the pecking order but just above animals. You had your Primordials, Gods, Lintha, Dragon Kings, Elementals, Behemoths, Mountain Folk, any other races that existed such as that techno one that Autocthon blew up, and so on until you get down to humans and animals. They were stuck being menial labor and sacrifices for the Dragon Kings. Sure you can say they shouldn't have strove above their position but the Primordials made them so that they could understand their position and resent it. Thats just sadistic. If it wasn't for the uncaring cruelty and in some cases sadism of the Primordials then Creation could have had this utopia you speak of. But they set themselves up to be taken down and were.

The Primordials should they ever get free aren't going to save Creation in the least. Creation is basically the body of their betrayer Gaia. Creation is going to become a neverending hell of pain and suffering. All the pain the yozi suffered they will return onto it ten-thousandfold. Most of the Primordials were never the good guys. At best they were absentee landlords who occasionally decided to repaint. At worst they came into your room, broke your stuff, ate your dog and burned it down then let their friends move in while you were out looking for some lunch. If the Yozi ever escape they will be even more twisted then they are now. Creation will continue to exist but it wont be saved by any definition of the word. The Infernal exalted might think their masters are poor victems but they dont have a choice anymore on what to think. No, they aren't the good guys at all. - BogMod

I agree with BogMod. Also As one of exalted major authors of Ex has said, from Primo perspective, the Exalted are germ warfare. A germ, if strong enough, coulde wipe the huamn race, and would them be supirior in a sense. The Exalted beat the Primos. It seems to me the the only orde to creation is a moderatly balanced Forte Main. - Azurelight

Begin my responce to above comments

I saw the germ warfare analogy, and I have to admit I loved it. It was a bit of the inspiration for my comparisons between bacteria and humans in my response to FrivYeti. Along those lines - A virus that kills its host is (from an evolutionary standpoint, not a germ warfare standpoint) a horrible failure. Viruses can not live without a host. That is why the only viruses that kill quickly are new viruses. Inevitably viruses either kill more quickly than they can spread or they change to kill more slowly. Look at HIV. Now a days, you can live with it for years. To an extent that is our knowledge of the virus and medical developments, but its also because the virus has mutated to kill less quickly. Originally it killed people really quickly. Another example is Ebola. The largest Ebola outbreak thus far stopped not because of human measures, but because it killed people so quickly it didn't manage to spread far enough to stabilize.

The exalted fit into that analogy fine. They were a great example of germ warfare, but in the process of killing off their hosts, they created an inherently unstable environment, dooming themselves to death. Not short term obviously, since its been thousands of years, but doomed themselves none the less. I believe this point fits in well with the justifications I have been using for saying the Immaculate Philosophy is accurate.

Moving on to the comments from BogMod, Your arguments are very nicely stated. You make a good argument against my fundamental assumptions about the nature of the world under the Primordials. And I admit, I was making assumptions that are not entirely supported by the canon books. That said, in defense of the arguments, I do have a few statements.

Reading through each book in the series, the way the views are presented is almost always with the bias of the group the book features. The core book is about what great hero's the Solars are. It acknowledges fault, but at the same time is very definitely skewed in their favor. The DB book is the same about the DB, the Sidereal book about the Sidereal, etc. Even the Abyssals and the FairFolk, vilified elsewhere, are presented as the protagonists in their own books. They have to be, because you can't play a character you can't identify with (well, I can't anyway). Taking that into account, many of the assumptions I arrived at I felt were logical if you attempt to look past the bias and read through the lines. That said, they are my assumptions, they are not stated, and I could very well be wrong. If you disagree with those assumptions, many of my arguments are invalid.

Among your other arguements... again, you mention the behavior of the Dragon Kings toward humans. As I mentioned previously, I don't think this is particularly valid as an argument against the Primordials. They were loyal to the US, and they fought with the Solars against the Primordials. They merely had a different moral system than the humans.

Next up, your comments about the motivations of the Gods - I think you portray them as a bit more altruistic than they are. The Gods care about two things from what I can tell, and I really believe this is supported by the canon publications. One - power, as drawn from the influence of their sphere of control and the worship of mortal. This means goods of nice stuff are nice true, but not because they give a damn about humans, but because its inherent to their nature to expand their sphere of influence. This of course opens all sorts of arguments about the nature of good and weather that is good or selfish, and can be applied to humans and all sorts of stuff. I need to sleep in the near future, so I'm not going to go off on that. Two - the games of divinity. I may be wrong, but I specifically remember one of the books pretty much saying straight out that the desire to have the Games of Divinity was one of the major motivations they had for their plots to overthrow the Primordials.

Next I want to address your comment "You can say the Greed of the gods ruined Creation or that the monstrous nature of Creation's creators doomed it."

Ok. Well... Yeah... You win that one. Curse you.

No, really... thats the sort of thing I agree with in real life, and I can't think of a good response off hand. The only real response is one of perspective. It is based on a fundamental outlook that runs completely contrary to the Immaculate Philosophy. If you buy that, all of my arguments in favor of IP get thrown out the window pretty much. Not so much because they're good arguments against it, as that they're the oposite of it. Pick one to believe and the other is inherently wrong. The Primordials probably don't buy it with regards to the Solars, and the Solars sure as heck don't buy it with regards to the Dragonbloods. That said, I doubt that any of us are going to argue with it having been raised in the society we have been.

Another comment I have no argument against - "If it wasn't for the uncaring cruelty and in some cases sadism of the Primordials then Creation could have had this utopia you speak of. But they set themselves up to be taken down and were. "

I agree, that one does pretty much blow away most of the case I made. If you believe it. The same could be said of the Rebellion by the Dragonbloods though. The argument is an extension of the above quote. Pick one, and the other is inherently wrong.

With regards to the last paragraph, about what will happen if the Yozi break free, I have to admit that I've been thinking along the same lines since I finished writing the first portion of this. At this point they're so vengeful and insane that it would most definitely not be the good, creation saving thing that I initially described. Creation would still be left around, but it would be out of a combination of the fact that they would want it to suffer, and the fact that they like having it as a buffer against the Wyld. Definitely not nice for the inhabitants though.

I've been thinking more about how to avoid that sort of reaction though. Stay tuned for my upcoming article on potentially OK ways to release the Primordials, which will be written at some point when its not after I should have gone to bed.

In conclusion, between the arguments of FrivYeti and BogMod, we can see that the arguments I was basing this on really holds up if you decide that you're a Primordial and want to believe them and that humans are just stupid and screwed themselves over for bad reasons. Either that or a Solar and want to believe that the Dragonblooded are just stupid and screwed creation over for bad reasons. Thats an exaggeration, but its along the right lines. This does not mean that I don't think my writings are worth reading through. While the underlying principles don't hold up under modern moral grounds, I liked a lot of my examples to much to dismiss it all =P

The one point that I think still stands at this point is the parallels I drew between the two Usurpations. I believe that the betrayal of the Primordials and the betrayal of the Solars were intentionally set up to mirror each other, and that because of this symbolic linking at some point in the series fiction the Yozi will be released from their prison. I also still maintain that its not going to be pretty.

-ExhilaratedRosewood

End my comments, because it is too late for me to keep writing - Feel free to post further insights.

"A virus that kills its host is (from an evolutionary standpoint, not a germ warfare standpoint) a horrible failure. Viruses can not live without a host. That is why the only viruses that kill quickly are new viruses. Inevitably viruses either kill more quickly than they can spread or they change to kill more slowly. Look at HIV."

I agree with this. However, all scientists don't. I recently took a course in immunology and two of the involved professors had very different opinions. One definitely thought along these lines, while the other dismissed it as stupid since there are still viruses that do kill their host (he felt that since they were still around, that niche of behaviour too must have its place). Anyway, the virus analogy would be slightly unfitting for the Exalted since thay are not dependent on the Primordials to survive. They would be more like Clostridium, killing the host and then reaping the good wheat (a theory of the Clostridium life cycle). This sint exactly preservative or good, but I never claimed that it has to be. I will read through your response to BogMod in more detail later, when I have more time, so this reply does not take it into account. -Azurelight

":In conclusion, between the arguments of FrivYeti and BogMod, we can see that the arguments I was basing this on really holds up if you decide that you're a Primordial and want to believe them and that humans are just stupid and screwed themselves over for bad reasons. Either that or a Solar and want to believe that the Dragonblooded are just stupid and screwed creation over for bad reasons. Thats an exaggeration, but its along the right lines. This does not mean that I don't think my writings are worth reading through. While the underlying principles don't hold up under modern moral grounds, I liked a lot of my examples to much to dismiss it all =P"

That is certainly true.

:The one point that I think still stands at this point is the parallels I drew between the two Usurpations. I believe that the betrayal of the Primordials and the betrayal of the Solars were intentionally set up to mirror each other, and that because of this symbolic linking at some point in the series fiction the Yozi will be released from their prison. I also still maintain that its not going to be pretty.

I seem to remember that has actually been stated. They mirror each other in principlem, though the "Inventor " of exalted has baically written 2 essays, where he depicts solars as Heroes taking down tyranic god-mosters, and DBS doing much the same , but witout the ability to be powerful enough to maintaing alot of what the solar could actuall still maintain and develope.

ALso, I miss Mokrelus from your essay.

Ps. BogMod makes a better case then I do .DS

Azurelight

I had forgotten Morkelus and had to google him. I only remember the vague details, and the only books I have with me are the 2nd ed core, DB and wonders books, and having Amazon send them to Japan costs a bit more than I have at the moment. I also wasn't aware of those essays. I don't suppose you know where they are? I read through some of his stuff on the wiki, but I skipped a few. Don't remember anything along those lines, I'll have to look again. - ExhilaratedRosewood

At least one is on the wiki ( think it was the one where he said that, essetially , the DBs did slay mad solars, true, bu they were also just greedy anf thought thermselves over capable.. The Celestial ans SOlarexalts on the otherhand, had the human will of adavancement and evolution, and masive power to back it up. I ,eam; a solar can make anything amiginable out of wyld. They just do it on a diffrent scale then primos.

(the gods were greedy too, sure, just to enforce the analogy) 
The other essay was from RPG.net, I think and is likley gone by now.

Mokrelus was a behemoth created to maintain order, but he was TOO well made. Preciving the primos as a force of disorder, he whisperd in the ears of the god an encuraged rebellion, viewing the as a less chaotick and more healthy force. ( will post the exat text when I can copy paste it)

On a related tangent, GCG has also be caught saying that the "canonical ending" of Ex is everyone destroying themselves. -Azurelight