Difference between revisions of "MartialArts/HourglassStyleOldComments"

Revision as of 09:04, 3 April 2010

These comments refer to the MartialArts/HourglassStyle

I'll need more time to assimilate and analyze the style. My first reaction, however, is "ow, SCARY." I would not want to play a character facing off against a master of this style. - Quendalon

Is there anything in particular that prompts that reaction? Something jump out and try to eat you? Or too gut level to decide such things yet? -DariusSolluman, new at this MA building thing.

I like this, it has some feel to it and I can easily see something like this being a very nifty Sidereal style. Not Sidereal-level, per se, just something that they'd do. I'd probably make a few changes -- some of the Essence minimums after the form seem a bit too high. I generally don't like to go directly from Form to Essence 3, IMHO, it's too sudden. However, very good stuff. -CrownedSun

This is interesting... until you get access to Inexorable Force, you can do everything you can think of, but you're not necessarily very good at it. Then suddenly you add five successes to every useful action, and right after that you get not one, but two perfect effects. And yet the style has almost no Charms that you can combo. I can see it tearing up extras like nobody's business, but up against a Melee stylist or a Tiger master, you would do well to pick up something that lets you set your hands on fire. - FourWillowsWeeping

My response was more of a gut reaction than anything specific. On further examination, I think it starts rather weakly, but jumps up to some very strong charms near the end, specifically Inexorable Force and Union with the Sands of Time. UwtSoT is the most flexible perfect Charm I've ever seen, and given that perfects are generally not the domain of MA, it doesn't sit right with me to have it in a MA tree, though I admit that the *feel* of the Charm matches the tree perfectly. Slicing Time Meditation and Vision of Frozen Light can be used on alternate rounds to avoid the cumulative charges, which may not have been your intention. On the good side, Hourglass Form is amusingly unorthodox, and Moment of Eternity is brilliant and clever. - Quendalon

General replies!

First, I've adjusted the tree a little bit. I'm keeping the effects roughly the same (with a tweak to the Extra Action charms- thanks Quendalon!) but lowered the Permanent Essence requirements of the Extra Action branch and the Special Effects Branch. I've also increased the mote cost of UwtSoT (Need... Better... Acronym...) to make up the difference of how flexible it is. (I contrast it to Accuracy Without Distance, which is just 1 Willpower, 1 mote and Heavenly Guardian Defense, with it's 1 Willpower, 3 motes).

But what's this 'two perfect effects' are you talking about, Weeping? -DariusSolluman

That'd be the UwtSoT acts as both a perfect defence and a perfect attack, essentially two charms in one. -Fade,

AHH! And all is made clear. -DariusSolluman

I feel silly saying this, but typically the Charms list mote-costs first and then willpower costs. It just seems strange, even alien, to list them the other way. I'd change them, myself, but it's your tree. I do like the style, though. Good stuff. I'd perhaps add another charm or two in there somewhere, for a few more Essence 2s, but I'm not sure what I'd put -- so I think your good to go. -CrownedSun

An idea I had for a charm:
Echoing Blow Method
Cost: 2 motes
Duration: ?
Type: Supplemental
Minimum Martial Arts: 3
Minimum Essence: 2
Prereqs: Hourglass Form

With practice a practioner of Hourglass style can throw his punches forward slightly in time, so that the blow appears to land seconds after it was thrown. This tends to be disorienting to the targets, and can be used to kick someone in both sides of the head similtaneously. Attacks made with this charm are delayed by 1 round. Figure the number of attack dice now, but the attack actually occurs in the next round. This requires no intervention by the martial artist, and occurs even if the target has moved out of range.

The aim of this charm is to use it on all of your attacks one round and not at all the next, this lumping two turns of attacks together to overwhelm their defences. (sorry for the crappy formating, but I'm new to Wiki) -Fade

YAY! I love that! *GANK* Although I'll make it the precussor Charm to Hourglass Form, rather than the first branch from it. As a usage note, though, you'll have pay that cost for each attack seperately- making it deceptively expensive. - DariusSolluman

I think UwtSoT should explicitly state that it can only be used with Martial Arts and Dodge (and possibly Athletics) actions. I don't think you should be able to get perfect archery/thrown/whatever attacks with it as well.

With a good quality Hearthstone a martial artist could recover 14-18 points of essence per point of willpower spent on Moment of Eternity. Is this too much? Perhaps essence regain from Hearthstones should be disallowed since time is not flowing for the Manse, and therefore essence cannot flow in it and to the bearer.

Perhaps Inexorable Force should only be usable unarmed? Slicers have difficulty working with solid objects at that speed, so being unarmed seems to 'fit' better. Then it might add (MA) successes as a simple charm or (essence) successes as a supplemental without being unbalanced, since no-one is going to be using it with a tetsubo. -Fade

Feel free to redo the flavor text on Echoing Blow Method by the way. You're much better at it than I am. -Fade

I added the no weapons / armor restriction, and adjusted the Union. But I honestly don't think that Inexorable Force is that bad, if you can't use it with weapons. And the ability to regain up to 14 motes / Willpower with Moment of Eternity wasn't accidental ;) - DariusSolluman

I was thinking that Inexorable Force is a bit weak. Given that you'll be dealing about 3B damage and only making one attack, and extra 3 or 4 successes doesn't seem like enough. But I guess it's a good charm to interleave with Vision of Frozen Light.

Now that I made it supplemental. Guh. I thought I'd done that previously... - DariusSolluman

You can get 18 motes/willpower with a big enough Hearthstone. But I suppose that's one of the strengths of the style. -Fade

Nice looking style - I love the feel of it. Only thing that jumps out at me that I'd definitely change are the extra action charms (Vision of Frozen Light and Slicing Time Meditation). All extra action charms I've seen in canon (and I admit I may have missed one or two) have a willpower cost associated with them. With the cumulative cost I'd say make it only 1 WP and only on the first round, but I'd definitely put a WP cost in there. Otherwise compare Iron Whirlwind with Vision of Frozen Light over one round - Iron Whirlwind is 5 motes and a WP, Vision of Frozen Light is 3 motes. The fact that it can be used only every other round like this is not penalty enough to make up for the horrendous difference in cost... - CorlanDashiva

Good point. *editedit* - DariusSolluman

Who likes this 'Wiki' being able to go back and change stuff without total reposting thing :) And minor edits.

Perhaps there should be some discussion on this, but I don't think Time Slicing Meditation should have a willpower cost - it's only one extra attack. And Vision of Frozen Light should only cost willpower the round you activate it, the cumulative cost being enough for later rounds. This is a time manipulation style after all, it ought to have really good extra action charms. Making 6 attacks per round isn't so scary when they all do 3B. -Fade

Well, an important thing to consider is that Martial Arts Charms shouldn't be directly better than their counterparts in the other Ability trees. So, TSM shouldn't be better than One Weapon, Two Blows (it already almost is, it being two Martial Arts actions instead of just attacks, and cheaper on an every-other-turn basis) and VoFT shouldn't just rock Iron Whirlwind Attack.

On the other hand, One Weapon, Two Blows doesn't have a Willpower cost. So I'm knocking it off of STM. But I think that VoFT should have the Willpower cost, personally- I'd forgotten that IWA has one. I'm also upping the inital essence cost from 3 motes to 4- If you use VoFT for two rounds (or longer) it's more expensive to maintain than Iron Whirlwind Attack. Thus making it best to use it for alternating extreme bursts of speed.

It's always tempting to play one-upsmanship, but- especially with Martial Arts -if there's something directly comparable in another Ability, your Ability should be more expensive than that outside of a schtik.

And no, five attacks a turn when they do 3B each isn't so scary. But what if a Sidereal is using Deadly Starmetal Offensive as well- a Scene long charm that gives his unarmed attack the stats of a Starmetal Daiklaive. Turn that on, use a combo of Vision of Frozen Light, Echoing Blow Method and Inexorable Force, then one more turn of just Vision of Frozen Time. That's a good chunk of essence (4+8+10+15 = 37 motes, plus whatever the Deadly Starmetal Offensive costs) and probally four willpower, to watch your opponent take ten attacks in one turn, all of them at 14+ dice, dealing +10L (with a strength of 3), and half of them with at least 4 automatic successes. Unless your opponent has two persistant defenses on when they take that brutality, the fight should be functionally over- at least five hits should get through, and with any armor less than artifact Articulated Plate, that'll be multiple levels of lethal per strike. Did I mention that the Hourglass Form means you've got your defense taken care of while you're setting that up for another seven motes? Or that if the target is a Solar and resorts to Seven Shadow Evasion for every attack, that's 60 motes?

And that's without the implications of adding something like Armor Penetrating Fang Strike or (for the Solars in the crowd) Leaping Tiger Attack.

Noooo, I think the style is just scary enough, as is :) It's a supplemental Style- like I said, Sidereal learn it as their first Celestial Level martial art. Not because the Hourglass Method is itself terrifying- it's teror enabling ;)

- DariusSolluman

Vision of Frozen Light gives you 6 actions per round, not 5.

Rounds 1: 1 willpower (activatate combo), 1 willpower (VoFL), 4 motes (VoFL), 18 motes (inexorable force), 18 motes (echoing blow method) Round 2: 1 willpower (VoFL), 8 motes (VoFL) That's 3 willpower and 48 motes, plus another 17 for Hourglass Form and Deadly Starmetal Offensive. Total 65 motes. You'll need to be experienced to even have that much essence, and if they use something like Bottomless Depths Defense now you're screwed. But I take your point, comboing VoFL does give you an excellent 'alpha strike' capability.

A good comparison of Iron Whirlwind Technique to Vision of Frozen Light is Heavenly Guarding Defence and Seven Shadow Evasion. HGD costs 1 mote and 1 willpower. SSE costs 6 motes and no willpower. With a cumulative cost of 4 motes and 1 willpower to start, I don't think its much cheaper than Iron Whirlwind. Some charms are better than others. Flow like Blood is identical to Fivefold Bulwark Stance except that it allows you to defend against attacks you aren't aware of. But you don't get your weapon's defence bonus and you have more prerequisites.

This is a really neat style though. Very flavourful. -Fade

The 'extra' from which you were getting six attacks was a goof. I wanted VoFL to be on par, number of actions-wise, with Iron Whirlwind Technique. (This has been corrected). You're right on the price of EBM though- I goofed my math there. Nor was I trying to demonstrate an unstoppable combo.

I'm just kinda with CorlanDashiva... Not sure how much of a hinderance the cumulative cost is, whereas I KNOW how much of a limitating factor Willpower is. And I don't want Martial Arts to take over or beat another Ability's schtik. Plus, I don't have a group to playtest it with at the moment- does Exalted: Kombat allow homebrew stuff? - DariusSolluman

VoFL is now inferior to Iron Whirlwind Technique is all. Round 1 is 1 willpower/4 motes vs 1 willpower/5 motes. Round 2 is 1 willpower/8 motes vs 1 willpower/5 motes. Average of 6 motes per turn instead of five. Successive rounds just get worse. And I'd say the 'dealing lots of damage' is Melee's schtick. 'Moving really quickly' is this one's. -Fade

Tornado Offense Technique is a martial-arts extra-action charm with a high mote cost but no willpower expenditure. It costs 20 motes to get 5 attacks. Given that to masters of this style 1 WP = 14 motes, on turn 2 the cost of VoFL already exceeds TOT. Turn 3 if they don't have a hearthstone.

But I'm not sure if we can really progress much further without playtesting. n wednesday I'll see if I can rustle up some people at the club to run a couple of combats. -Fade

One other question - The Flowing Reflex raises the difficulty of hitting you to your permanent essence. Is that supposed to be by your permanent essence? Because hitting people is normally difficulty 1 (need at least one success), and Deceiving the Watcher Method raises it by permanent essence (so does Ebon Shadow Form). -Fade

You playtesting this style would rock so hard that I have no words for it :) And if it really as underpowered as you're making it sound, then it'll probally be adjusted downwards. But the 1 WP = 14 motes is somewhat incorrect- it's 1 WP and a turn. And a turn in combat can be very important.

Re: The Flowing Reflex. Yeah, that was supposed to be 'by'. Has there been one charm that I haven't screwed up some little thing like that on? ;)

We need to sort out what type of charm Union should be. Currently its Supplemental, which has two problems: <i>1) Difficult to use defensively. You have to activate it on your turn *before* you are attacked. Is this intentional? 2)Combo Vision of Frozen Light, Union with the Sands of Time and Inexorable Force. 54 motes, 7 willpower, one incredibly dead opponent. Only a perfect defence will save you from that.

I think it should be Reflexive to allow for its use as a defence, with a notation that it is not possible to make multiple attacks with it.

Moment of Eternity can fold several hours of reflection into one turn, so you can spend several willpower at once for 14 motes each. But it is a point.

I don't think it's too underpowered, just that used over multiple turns Vision can rapidly become uncompetitive with Inexorable Force and similar multiple-action charms (at best its 1 mote cheaper than IWA), and my feeling is that this style should have rapid actions as a large part of it. I'll try and run several combats, first using a starting Solar, and then one with ~50xp and what I think Deadly Starmetal Offensive is. I strongly expect the first one to get its arse kicked due to a lack of damage dealing potential, but it'll be interesting to try the second against a Melee and Snake stylist. -Fade

I was just thinking actually that maybe Vision should work like a Gem of Perfect Mobility. This gives you the flexibility that time-slicing should have (you're moving fast, not just rapidly striking with a sword) and doesn't step too obviously on the toes of Iron Whirlwind Attack and similar charms. Of course thats a fairly powerful effect so it should have a high cost (5 motes cumulative+1 willpower?). I beleive you mentioned something like this in your first post on RPG.net, though a scene-length is much too powerful. -Fade

Hm. Ya'know, that might not actually be so bad. Especially since one of the major advantages of the Gem of Perfect Mobility is being able to both Full Dodge and attack normally every turn- freeing up all your actions for attack. Given that the Hourglass Form already handles that...

Hm. I rather like that.  :) And even relative to Iron Whirlwind Attack, it's not actually all that directly powerful- what would you rather have, five attacks at no penelty, or 6 at -3/-3/-4/-4/-5/-5? On the other hand, Vision of Frozen Light now lets you actually MOVE much faster as well, which is good. That had actually become an aspect of the style that was drastically missing, other than Threshold of Eternity, and that Charm wasn't meant for combat. I'm thinking 3 motes cumulative, no Willpower. If the Hourglass Stylists trash the Snake and Melee Stylists, I'll tack the Willpower back on. ;)

Vision of Frozen Light v2.1 online :) (Although, gah, I'm not sure what type of Charm to make it. Reflexive and it combos wildly, Simple and it loses a lot of the flexibility...) - DariusSolluman

One thing frightening about the new Vision is that you can use it multiple times in a turn for its ordinary cost, making it (in the first turn) an extremely cheap way to get like nine actions at three-action penalties. You could remedy that the way one usually remedies initiative-increasers, though, stipulating that it can only be used one in a turn. Alternatively, you could have the cumulative cost mechanic count activations instead of turns, which is consistent with both Charms and allows you to simply "buy turns" with Vision, which is what I think you intended, but without the loophole. - FourWillowsWeeping

Willows, what would I do without your kindly editoral oversight? (Erase, change) - DariusSolluman

I think you need to make it explicit in the charm that both actions can be split independantly. Copy some of the text from Charcoal March of Spiders Form:

.The character moves in the fashion of an arachnid sifu, her hands weaving lazily through three sets of interwoven kata. Such is her grace and coordination, in Essence as in body, that she may take three fully independent actions in each turn. For example, she may invoke a full dodge when attacked, then invoke Flight of Mercury while making an ordinary Martial Arts attack, and, finally, split her dice pool to use Maw of Dripping Venom against two nearby opponents.

Fully independent actions follow exactly the same rules as taking single actions on multiple successive turns, except that:

Only one turn actually passes, which matters for some Charm effects and durations and also means the sutra discount applies only once.

Characters who have split dice pools can interweave their actions. For example, they can split one action's dice pool between an attack and a parry, taking another action in between.

The character only moves once.

Characters cannot also use extra action Charms and Combos containing those Charms when taking more than one independent action.

Obviously need to modify it since you only get 2 actions, you can move twice, and I'm not sure whether you can use 2 charms. -Fade