Difference between revisions of "AlternateMechanics/DSAlternateTemperance"

Latest revision as of 01:15, 6 April 2010

Temperance sucks.

The other virtues spur a character to action. The Compassionate is moved to strive for love and equality; the Valorous proves their worth and honor; those of Conviction drive ever towards their goals.

But Temperance? Temperance is, by definition, inaction. It is an un-Virtue. I have yet to hear of any classical heroes who can adequetly be described as having Temperance as their Tragic Flaw- that they are too Temperate. Temperance is moderation, restraint, and- while it makes a handy 'I'm a monk' Virtue, I frankly think Temperance is better represented by having low virtues overall, and generally resisting them, so as to better follow the path of restraint. In other words, it is not a Virtue, but the lack of the flaws of other Virtues- and is not therefore mechanically rewarded or rewarding, making the path of restraint a harder one to walk, especially as time goes.

Yes, I know that Temperance is held up as a virtue in eastern culture. But it doesn't serve as a Tragic Flaw. Let me emphasize that again, because it seems to get lost in the static when I have posted similiar ideas on the WW board previously. I know that Temperance is a high and worthy goal. It is virtious. However, it makes for a poor Virtue in Exalted.

So, clearly it should be replaced.

My inital suggestion for a replacement is Pride. The Pride Virtue is what spells the difference between a mouse and a man. A proud man will not allow the will of others to arbitrarily rule them; they may have equals, but no superiors. Those with some Pride are self-assured; those with more are arrogent, even beyond what is appropriate for the Exalted. The Proud also have a self-image to maintain; although they will lie to others, they will not go against their own sworn word. They have honor, but need not avenge it with hot steel; the Proud can delay vengence for days, months or even years- but they never forgive, nor do they ever forget. Those of Pride may be slow to reach a decision, but once reached, they will not back down; to do so would admit that they were wrong, which is something almost impossible for them to do.

Literary Characters Famous for Pride: Achilles, Lucifier, Conan, MacBeth (especially as a transition from Pride 2 to Pride 3+)

• A mouse, lacking any spine.
•• A man, confident enough not to give in to everyone's way, but aware of the realities of power in the world.
••• A power in your own right; what need is there to have superiors?
•••• A juggernaught of will, self-assured to the point of maddening arrogence.
••••• Reality has ceased to matter, and facts are irrelevant; nothing can dissuade such a character that their Pride is misplaced.

Pride Aids In: Dealing with inferiors; Keeping an oath; Resisting being dominated; Acting in a fashion to demonstrate your superiority; following a previously made decision.
Characters Must Fail a Pride Roll To: Acknowledge a superior (either individual or organization; must be made when first joining, and whenever circumstances change the balance of power between the two); Acknowledge an inferior as an equal, or listen to the advise of an inferior; Intentionally break an oath; Forgive a past slight without seeking retribution; change their mind.

Sample Pride Virtue Flaws

Master of All: Even the great need companions, friends and equals- but not an Exalt under the influence of the Master of All. All bonds of friendship and equality dissolve into a simple power contest, which the Exalt must be victorious in. They can not rest for a number of days equal to their Pride until all around acknowledge them as the rightful leader and superior, the one person who's vision is keen enough to plot a path to tomorrow. They will use every resources they have at their disposal to achieve such a goal.
Limit Break Condition: Whenever the character is forced to change their mind based on the advice of an equal.

Prince and Pauper: The great weight of being so proud finally snaps in the Exalt's mind. For a number of weeks equal to their Pride, they are meek and mild, doing whatever anyone suggests. Although they will not directly commit suicide, it is trivially easy for someone to talk them into such an action while under the Prince and Pauper's curse - or into breaking all bonds of brotherhood, or any past oath, or any other such course of action.
Limit Break Condition: Whenever the character's committed course of action leads to disaster.

Additionally, the Sidereal Curse suddenly has a bit more mechanical impact; the Sidereal must fail a Pride check to change their minds from a committed course of action, even if they have a Pride of less than 3. And if they have a Pride of 3 or more, they must fail their Pride check twice - which explains why it is so rare for an elderly Sidereal to change, and so easy for them to become inflexible monsters.

The other Virtues I've tossed around in my head are Honesty and Faith. But not to the same degree as with Pride. And I'd be interested if anyone else has considered replacing any of the Virtues, and if so, what with. DS

Pride seems in many ways to overlap with Conviction or Valor. I've had a lot of trouble with my players avoiding Compassion, for fear it will weaken them, or trying to channel Conviction for damn-near-everything because they interpret it as a virtue usable when they're Convinced they want something, ignoring the overtones of sacrifice for correctness that it should have. I've been attracted to Riddle of Steel's Spiritual Attribute system, where each character has different Virtues -- Faith, Passion, Luck, Drive, and a couple I'm forgotting. YOu might find it an interesting real. --bts

There's not actually as much overlap as there seems to be, and I tried to highlight where there's a difference between the Pride, Valor and Conviction in specific. For a literary example of a High Pride / Low Valor character, see Tyrion in the Song of Ice and Fire by Georgia RR Martin. Or the classical Lucifier (with Pride enough to rebel against God- something that surely goes against Conviction). As for your personal players, you just need to make sure the distiction between the Virtues is clear to them, that not every situation where they are acting in the interests of a passing cause is reason for Conviction, and not every act of self is a selfish, Proud act.

And I'm more than passingly familiar with Riddle of Steel's Spirtual Attributes - however, they're seeking to emulate a different thing. Riddle's Attributes seek to emulate the classical narrative, in which characters pursue meaningful goals with which the reader empathizes, and are at their greatest when most of those goals are in alignment. Virtues, in Exalted, are modeled off of an earlier type of narrative - one in which virtue is well and good, but in which they also tend to lead to a tragic downfall. DS

I see your point, but it really seems like pride is already somewhat covered. Honesty/Truth might be a good one. You would need to fail a roll to not try to uncover or tell the truth. It may help you to find the truth or convince others of what the truth is. The other possiblity of Faith I don't really see working very well but if anyone has ideas...? -Jaelra

How would Faith not be able to work? Look at all the prophets, both true and false, throughout history. Faith in a higher power is a massively motivating factor, one that has inspired, arguably, the greatest goods and worst evils of history. A faith that is unshakeable is a common trait of many more-modern heroes - and I argue that it primarily didn't enter into the Iliad because no one doubted that Mars stalked the battlefield personally. Whereas people in Exalted would not doubt the existance of the Gods, they might doubt to what degree they are important or actually influential. DS

I like Pride, although Valour might need to be tweaked to accomodate it. (Perhaps Pride could replace Valour altogether.) As for Faith, what exactly do you mean by that? If by Faith you mean belief in or commitment to a higher cause, it seems as though Faith would be a subset of Conviction. -- Raindoll

I'm leery of Pride replacing Valor, because then Temperance remains, there's only 3 Virtues, or something likewise wonky happens. On the other hand, maybe just remove the 'prickly honor' aspect of Valor- it becomes purely about both having and proving one's courage. Not so much about having and proving one's honor. Thus, you still couldn't run from a battle, or turn down single combat out of fear of your life, but you wouldn't need to respond to every taunt with anger.

As for Faith being too close to Conviction, yeah, it probally is. DS

What about Spirit or Ghost charms based on Temperance? - DigitalSentience

Given that Temperance is 'Used to defend oneself, and to steal Essence from others', I don't see where Pride isn't appropriate as a replacement. DS

I agree with Raindoll - I think Pride is just about what Valor needs to be. My fix for Temperence (and one that may fly in the case of canon - my books aren't here, I can't verify against the text) is to make it an active Virtue. Temperance drives the character to guide people around him towards more self-controlled, moderate lifestyles. As a tragic flaw, think Jesus, when he becomes Commando Christ in the Temple. Granted, that's not quite a Temperance-based reaction, but I could see Temperance-based reactions coming off in a similar manner. - David.

Hm. Yea, that could work. A Temperate man wouldn't give into sin or heresy - but also couldn't stand seeing others do so. Living in this impure world drives the Temperate man into most intemperate acts. I like it :) DS

My favorite part of running it that way is that there are times when the Temperance Virtue opposes itself. :) - David.