SolarBrawl/Old Comments

I always viewed that one Sidereal Brawl Charm (I think it's Crimson Palm Counterattack, but I could be wrong) as covering this sort of situation, so you might want to use a similar mechanic. It gets around the rather sticky issue of the attacker defending against the counterattack - I can see that getting downright weird in some circumstances. - Kurulham

I do believe the trick is that this isn't a counterattack. That's the magic. It's almost like a new class of defense, similar to a parry, but not. It doesn't count as an attack, per se, so doesn't activate counterattacks, et cetera. Just my take on how simple it gets. And since it doesn't do much damage, one needn't worry about it totally unbalancing things. - GregLink

Er, maybe it's just me, but the words "makes a standard attack roll... and resolves it as normal" imply that - even if it's not technically a "counterattack" - it is still an attack, and as such can be parried, dodged, etc. (If this isn't your intent, Ambisinister, then you may want to clarify the wording.} - Kurulham

GregLink's interpretation is accurate, though Kurulham is right, the wording is misleading. I've re-worked the wording of the charm to reflect that. Changes made have been placed in bold. I have not yet re-worded the example. Although I don't like the term "pseudo attack" I can't think of anything better for the time being. Admittedly, I forgot all about the Sidereal charm, and after looking it over, it appears to provide a similar effect in an, at this point, much cleaner fashion-Ambisinister

You may also want to use the somewhat-more-standard wording of "subtract successes, then, once you get to 0, start adding them to your own" kind of thing, and specifically note what sort of Charms can be used to enhance the "pseudo attack" (my instinct would be "not bloody many", given that it's not actually an attack, but it's somewhat ambiguous.) Also, what happens if this Charm is used to "parry" an armed attack? Is there any chance to break the weapon? What about if it's an artifact weapon? It seems rather counterintuitive that this Charm would directly do damage to the attacker if he were hitting you with, say, a grand daiklave... one way or the other, though, it should probably be said.

Something just struck me - as written, this seems much more like... a Lunar Charm! It reminds me a great deal of Snake Body Technique. Just something to think about. - Kurulham

Provided an alternate mechanic that I think is a lot cleaner. Regarding weapon destruction: The way I think the charm works against an armed opponent is that the brawler just whacks them in the wrist or forearm to forestall the attack. Although you've now got me thinking of a charm which could either build off or replace this one entirely. More on that later. Regarding SBT, doesn't that allow a reflexive parry, which, if successful, alllows a counterattack?- Ambisinister

The alternate mechanic is a little scary, especially for a Solar with high soak. At this level of combat (Essence 2/3), ping is very low, and this Charm is extremely powerful. If you go with that mechanic, I'd suggest making it at least Essence 3, and/or making it the second or third Charm in this tree, and/or having it do bashing damage. Keep in mind that you're bypassing the attacker's soak entirely here, and that's dead hurty. Snake Body Technique gives a reflexive dodge; if it reduces attack successes to zero and still has more successes, the attacker takes the damage the attack would have done, with the defender's extra dodge successes adding damage (see Myriad's Power Combat 255 for an example of why this is so powerful}. - Kurulham

Hmmm, you make an excellent point. I have two possible fixes to the alternate mechanic: Incorporate a weapon breaking system. If the brawler is attacked by an armed opponent, then the damage goes to the weapon with the possibility of destroying it. The only time the damage would go straight to the attacker would be if he is unarmed. Or, let the attacker soak the damage, which would probably reduce the damage to ping in most circumstances. I still can't decide which mechanic I prefer. I don't know that it's possible to streamline the original without making it a Crimson Palm or Snake Body knock-off.- Ambisinister

Personally, I'd go with the weapon-breaking mechanic, and have the damage type be whatever the character's normal Brawling damage type is (normally bashing, but can be modified to lethal with brawling aids or Charms). It seems to me you have a bunch of ideas that you're trying to cram all into one Charm - why not stretch it out into a tree of two or three? Have an Essence 2 version, then an Essence 3 version that's unsoakable, then a high-end Essence 3 or low-end Essence 4 version that bypasses their weapon and goes straight to the unsoakable damage. Or something, I don't know. - Kurulham

Alright, so I took Kurulham's advice to heart and just made a tree. I'm pretty happy with it and it seems fairly balanced. Let's see what you guys think.- Ambisinister

Looks good! I have this image of an Earth Immaculate coming at Panther with his tetsubo, and Panther shattering it with one punch, leaving the poor Immaculate holding a short stick with a priceless look on his face. Two things to specifically note: do Force Meets Force Attitude and Offensive Defense Practice prevent you from using other defenses (i.e. do they count as parries), and can artifact weapons actually be broken by Offensive Defense Practice? - Kurulham

Having had an opportunity to think on it, I don't know how well Force Meets Force Attitude sits with me. It's really only a speedbump. I've come up with a new, actual counterattack mechanic for FMFA, and I've packed all the weapon breaking goodness into ODP, which has also been modified slightly. I'm not sure if I should allow my new FMFA to be used in response to other counter attacks, but I like the charm.-Ambisinister

These are nice charms... If only I could somehow automagically pick out every brawl charm I like from everyone here and stick it into a gigantic tree, I could make a brawling character! One small question I have, though, is... why would you ever want to reduce your own damage pool? In Force Meets Force Attitude, it says: "If the brawler's pool is higher, he has the option of buying it down to match his opponent's at the rate of 1 mote per 2 dice." Aside from a few very, very rare circumstances (in which case, why are you counterattacking at all) why would you ever want to reduce a damage pool against someone?
-- Darloth

For two reasons in this case: If you think you're going to outright kill someone, it's always nice to have the option to roll back damage. The other reason is that in an emergency you can use this charm as a means of damage reduction. Once you and your foe's pools are equal, you can buy down both pools at the rate of two motes per die. There are more effecient ways to defend yourself, but sometimes you have to make do with what you've got.-Ambisinister