Szilard/MartialArts

thoughts on martial arts

some general thoughts on the differences between brawl and martial arts

Brawl is the ability governing unarmed combat and improvised weapons. It is, essentially, the combat ability of those who rely only on their own natural abilities and anything that they might find at hand.

Martial Arts is different. It is not, primarily, unarmed combat. Instead, it is combat as an art form. It is not only martial arts, but it is also martial arts. While Brawl might emphasise brutality, force, speed, or finesse, depending upon an individual brawler; Martial Arts emphasizes combat in a particular style or combination of styles.

What does that mean?

One does not learn a generic ability "Martial Arts" - instead, one learns one or more styles of combat, each of which emphasizes a theme. Even those who do not learn Martial Arts charms learn Martial Arts styles, though this is mostly cosmetic from a mechanics point of view. Most martial arts styles involve both unarmed combat and combat involving a particular weapon or set of weapons. Compare this to Melee (armed combat, but no unarmed combat) and Brawl (unarmed combat, but no formal weapon use). While there is some practical overlap with both, there is a distinct practical niche for Martial Arts... and even more of a conceptual one.

Lunars and Martial Arts

Hmmm... so the Player's Guide shafted Lunars with respect to martial arts.

Most people seem to be in denial about this and simply houserule away the PG rulings. Just to be contrary, I'm not going to do that. Instead, let's try to make it something cool.

Right, then. Lunars can't combo Attribute-based Charms with Martial Arts, and they can't learn Sidereal Martial Arts. Why? Well... let's leave that question fr a moment. Eventually, I may come back to it. Let's just assume that they can't do it.

Right. That's lame. I thought you said we were going to make this cool.

Oh. Right.

Well... that is simply what Lunars can't do MA-wise. We haven't looked at what they can do.

Have you ever wondered why a bunch of the Solar styles are animal-themed? I mean, Solars really, as a rule, aren't into emulating animals all that much. What if they developed these styles as gifts for their mates in the First Age (who just possibly had difficulty developing ability-based charms on their own)?

What if the animal styles resonate particularly well with Lunars, and Lunars with the right Shapeshifting charms and animals in their Heart's Blood library can incorporate some of those abilities into their practice of the animal styles, making even better use of these styles than Solars can (perhaps gaining the ability to enhance some of the charms with extra effects)?

Solars and Sidereal Martial Arts

I don't have a problem with the idea of high-Essence, powerful Martial Arts for Sidereals.

I do have a problem with the apparent fact that all the Martial Arts charms Solars can learn on their own (or create) seem to top out at Essence 4 or 5 .

That seems dumb.

In general, it is conceded that Solars can create higher-powered charms than are printed in the core book. There are even a couple of these in the caste books.

So why can't they do this for Martial Arts?

Niche protection?

We don't need no stinking niche protection. This isn't D&D. Besides, the Sidereals have a greater incentive to learn Martial Arts (due to their otherwise-limited number of charms), a greater age and more knowledge of this stuff - and the sutras (which I am perfectly happy to say that Solars can't use) - which keeps them as the Second Age (and probably even First Age) top dogs when it comes to Martial Arts.

My suggestion? Sidereal Martial Arts become second-tier Celestial Martial Arts, fully learnable (and creatable) by Solars. Sidereals tend to concentrate more on this sort of thing for some fairly obvious reasons. They also have access to the sutras that make them extremely efficient Martial Artists. I'm assumining that Solars can't learn sutras. Does this break anything?

Now, the Sidereal Martial Arts that we've seen are rather... Sidereal in flavor. That's fine. I suspect that a high-powered Solar martial artist who creates his own martial arts is more likely to do so as an extension of those martial arts that he already knows rather than creating something utterly abstract and surreal. Of course, it largely depends on the Solar.

Another potential thought...

What if the big difference between CMA and SMA isn't sheer potential power, but the fact that SMA starts off high-powered and goes from there?

What if we had a MA style that started off with Charms that required MA 1 / E1 but went up to Essence 7 charms instead of Essence 3 or 4 Charms? Could that be a Celestial level martial art? I don't see any reason why not... Perhaps the ones we have access to in print are those that are more commonly learned and more easily mastered?

More on Sidereal Martial Arts

• Sidereal Martial Arts styles are probably the only (or close enough to the only) high level martial arts styles that are taught in any organized manner... and probably the only ones that more than one or two Exalts ever really practice. Other Celestials, by the time they reach that level of power, are going to just design their own styles. Sidereals, due to their limited number of charms otherwise, have reason to learn these things en masse.
• I don't like Violet Bier of Sorrows as the Sidereal MA Charm tree. It is a Celestial Martial Art - they might as well have Snake Style in there. Why VBOS? "Because it was a gift from the Maiden of Endings," doesn't really do it for me. My thought? Have a non-style tree of Martial Arts Charms (something like the Initiations stuff that Shreyas was/is working on). The top (prayer strip) charm can be the ability to use the student and elder sutras. This would give a nice set of reasons for the Sidereals to be the top Martial Artists: they have a unique set of charms that make them more efficient/better at it. It also would eliminate the need to otherwise differentiate between Sidereal/non-Sidereal high-essence Martial Arts styles. Thoughts on Charms for this:
  • Style Discerning Glance and/or Fu Measuring Judgement: The first would identify Styles that a person knows, and give knowledge of the benefits of any form that person is using. The second would give some measure of the individual's total knowledge of Martial Arts (probably the number of Form and Pinnacle charms and the level of each - something like that).
  • Weapon Flexibility Method: allows some use of non-style weaponry with a style.
  • Form Management Technique: Toying with a few ideas for this one - possibly reflexively switching between two forms once per turn.
  • Sutras

suggested rules tweaks

For each dot of Martial Arts taken by a character, learn the use of a single martial art weapon. Specialties taken in particular martial arts weapons and martial arts weapons included in styles that the character has learned any charms from do not count toward this total.

original martial arts styles

• MartialArts/CelestialDefenderStyle - A Celestial Martial Art based upon the awareness of weaknesses and the use of a shield as a weapon. Inspired by Captain America, of course.
• MartialArts/GardaStyle - a Celestial "animal style" based on an elemental.

martial arts styles in development

Actually, I'd like to see a bunch of styles based on elementals. They are certainly no less valid as models for Martial Arts than are animals. Next up? Probably Sobeksis Style, with crocodile and poetry imagery galore.

Charm name/idea dump for Sobeksis Style:

Cascade of Words Approach - Charging attack?

Rolling Metric Technique - Disorients a clinched opponent (image: crocodile rolling with prey underwater)

Sonorous Tooth and Scale Attack - Strike

Sun-Soaking Meditation - Energy-absorbing? Preparing?

Flowing Verses Meditation - Cooling off?

Sobeksis Form - Soak Lethal with Bashing Soak, Unarmed attacks do Lethal, Parry lethal unarmed. Something else that's cool.

Also, a lot of people don't like Dreaming Pearl Courtesan Style. I can understand that. The general consensus seems to be that it is a bit too confused, trying to be too many things, and cram too many images together. Most of the attempts to fix it have focused upon making a style for courtesans. That's cool. I'd like to see a better Dreaming Pearl Style (minus the courtesan stuff), however. Perhaps I will make one.

A third martial arts project: I'd like to design a straight-up Solar-designed high-Essence Martial Art.

Ooh! I had an idea this morning for a MA practiced by powerdul Spirits, Demons, and Eclipses/Moonshadows that uses Words of Power as its signature weapon. Deadly Words Style? Needs a better name... Oh, and the Form would make intelligible verbal communication impossible within Essence yards of the martial artist.

Yet another MA idea - this one from a challenge I posed to willows: Heaven above Earth Style. It begins with four charms (Air, Wood, Fire, and Water aspected) and then has an Earth below Heaven Form. After the form comes an Earth aspected mini-pinnacle and two charms that will (1) serve as a Celestial Initiation and (2) lead to a second form charm (Heaven above Earth Form). After that will come seven charms - one for each maiden, one for the moon, and a pinnacle for the sun. Heaven above Earth form may allow a martial artist to reflexively switch into Earth below Heaven form once per round. The style would be one that was taught to Dragonbloods in the First Age. It might be revived by the Cult of the Illuminated. It might also have been kept alive somewhere outside the Realm. Lookshy? Unlikely, but not impossible.

comments</b>

I very much like your thoughts on MA. You should possibly check out MartialArts/MistOnStillWaterStyle for an example of an extant high-Essence Celestial style. I don't really know why you should, but at least you seem like you won't get angry because it exists. Also, there's a link in the "justification" section there in which Rebecca Borgstrom suggests pretty much this very fix to the silliness. - SMK

No, I'm not angry because it exists. I do sort of think that you should keep the Sidereal Martial Arts requirement of learning another Martial Art first, though... if only because it simply doesn't seem right that someone's first Martial Art charm could be an Essence 4 charm. - Szilard

I pretty much agree with you regarding the ability of Solars to develop Sidereal-level Martial Arts, which would lack sutras but would otherwise follow the pattern of Sidereal MA. I do think, however, that even Solar versions would have some of that Sidereal-y surrealism, on the grounds that MA of that level *has* to be based on esoteric concepts. You could still have them be outgrowths of extant Celestial styles, but the two are not incompatible. Instead of Elder Tiger Style, you create Agate Pride of Tigers Style (Ferocity). Then a Sidereal can come along, appropriate your style with Style-Discerning Eye, and slap a sutra on it. :) - Quendalon

Sure. That works. - S

One thing that I think is important to keep in mind is the Caste affiliation of SiderealCharms. Formless-technique Endings Charms could be about the end of discipline, for instance... some ideas that come to mind, for me:

• Combo MA and Brawl.
• Use MA Charms with abnormal weaponry as long as you're not in a Form.
• Perform a chaotic kata that makes it difficult for others to maintain their own, forcing them to roll to assume and maintain Forms.

- willows

Good thoughts. I was starting off with some basic brainstorming. I need to really dig into the Sidereals book before I finalize anything. -szilard

Interestingly, if you subscribe to my doctrine of Initiations, which IIRC you don't, not entirely, then the Scripture of the Expectant Maiden (I think that is it) is long enough to support a Breakthrough Initiation - perhaps the only one possible. It could even be this Initiation that makes it possible for the Sidereals to use Sutras to power their Martial Arts, rather than having that be a weird inherent cosmology-breaking Sidereal ability. If it requires Incarnate expertise to devise Breakthrough Initiations, then it's even possible that you could run a story about developing a similar Breakthrough for the other Celestials...with some other, profoundly impressive ability. - willows

Well, when I went with a Lunar learning an Animal form, I usually went with an animal form that fit his Totem anyway - for instance, a Snake-totem Lunar learning Snake Style (and using it while in Snakey DBT). My ST was all over this like white on rice, and tended to give me an easier time with stunt dice for it. But to actually go ahead and formalize the mechanics, ... hm... I suppose one possible benefit is to give essence-free reflexive shapeshifting while in form (say, while using Tiger form, allow the Lunar to reflexively and free of essence cost shift between human and tiger shapes - and mantiger, if that's his totem). Maybe give him a pseudo-dot of Martial Arts, too, when combining the appropriate Form with the appropriate Shape, in the same way that Prodigy offers a character a bonus dot in a skill. It's not overpowered, but it seems to be appropriate - +1 MA rating, and the ability to shift into the appropriate animal while in Form. Tastey, but not the sort of thing that even makes a tiny, tiny dent in game balance. - Miedvied

What if the big difference between CMA and SMA isn't sheer potential power, but the fact that SMA starts off high-powered and goes from there?
My main thought about this is, why on earth would CMAs ever be extended so far up in Essence? I wonder this for several reasons:

• Anyone with Essence 7 has access to better Charms than MA.
  • Except Sidereals, who can design SMA.
• A continuous tree is strictly inferior to a discontinuous tree, in flexibility terms, so it's better to have two styles than one.
• It requires the requisites of the final Charm to design a Martial Art, which means that they will all be developed by advanced practicioners that don't need the weak-Essence half of the tree.

For all these reasons, I think any Martial Art with a long Essence range is an unlikely production. - willows

Well, unless you decide that the lower flexibility of one long tree is offset by higher power. Maybe it has 3 Form charms at different stages of the way up, and they can be used simultaenously, or something along those lines. Personally, I think it's a way cool idea to have one massive path to enlightenment that an Exalt can walk right from the day of their Exaltation all the way up to Elder levels of power. As for "why would someone who could design it bother to do so?", there's plenty of ways around that :

• It was designed by a powerful god / demon / Deathlord for his followers.
• It was designed by one of the Incarna / a Malfean as the "official" Martial Art for his/her Exalts.
• It was designed by a First Age Solar, who wanted to make sure his next incarnation had a decent fighting style. Its true power is only available to a Solar with the exact same shard.

And so on... -- Xarak

I generally don't think it's particularly plausible that there is a Martial Arts strategy superior to SMA, partly since that would remove the minute toehold that Sidereals retain on being "peerless martial artists," which they really have to struggle to keep, in the face of bluntly superior support Charms for Solars, giant pools for Lunars, and DB reflexives. So, that doesn't really work in favor of your higher power idea. As for bothering to do so, I am pretty much convinced that any of the entities you listed above would be able to gain influence over a Sidereal in order to have an SMA constructed; this is more efficient in terms of martial redundancy and quantity of Charms against Essence level; if you're going to make a Style that ends at Ess 7, then why not have it start at 5?

I think basically the best way to derive Essence-lengthy Styles is to have a chain of Styles that step up the circles, with each serving as an initiation to the next (possibly with some sort of penalty for not having "real" access; each Style's pinnacle could have an effect like, "The master of this X Style can learn Charms from the Y Style, but if he cannot normally learn that circle of MA then their Essence requirement increases by 1 dot." - willows

Hmmm...I don't think it would devalue Sidereals. If you rule that the only way for a non-Sidereal to get uber-Martial Arts is to follow one long style, then it instantly gives an advantage to the Sidereals who can mix and match much more freely ( and which also means they can combo between styles ). Plus, Sidereals get the best Martial Arts since only they get Sutras. I don't think that "Ultimate Kung Fu Master" should be a Sidereal-only character concept. -- Xarak

Sutras simplify some of the problems of using SMA, but they are not nearly as valuable, IMO, as out-of-Style support abilities are, and every splat has better options for that than Sidereals do. - willows

Hmmm... Consider a First Age Solar master of Martial Arts who wants to design his own high-Essence Martial Art. Perhaps he is a sifu and young Exalts come to him to learn, and he has designed this as a teaching aid. Perhaps he is interested in the structure of MA styles and designed this as a theoretical exercise. Perhaps MA is his only favored combat ability, and he wants access to a large number of self-designed combat charms. Perhaps he doesn't trust the Sidereals or has a streak of individualism and doesn't want to depend upon others. I can think a a large number of reasons that someone would design a style like this if they could... and it would certainly be worthwhile to learn if it had been designed. I guess I don't really see what your concern is. Also note that this explicitly wouldn't be a MA strategy superior to SMA. It wouldn't have sutras, sure... but, in addition, the average SMA Charm would be more powerful than the average charm in one of these styles, even if the places that they topped out might be on par with each other. It just seems unlikely (and wrong) to me that Solars couldn't design high Essence charms MA charms when they can do so with any other ability. -szilard

Well, they can't design high-Essence Necromancy, either. It's the same thing.

What I'm trying to express here is that I do not think any of the reasons you and Xarak have offered are sufficient to make a rational agent choose long-MA over SMA or well-designed short-MA, and I find it fairly ridiculous that an undertaking of such scale and expense would be approached in a non-rational manner.

That said, I'm exactly contrary enough to start thinking about how I would design a long-MA now, as a thought experiment. Since this doesn't cost me XP or centuries of study, I have many fewer limiting factors to consider than an Exalt in my situation! - willows

Necromancy is, I think, rather different in that it isn't an ability in itself. MA is the only entire set of Charms that is potentially limited in this way... and, iirc, it hasn't been ruled out that high-Essence CMA don't exist. You're argument might point to their rarity. What I'm trying to do here is identify how such a thing would differ from SMA.

I disagree with you about the absoluteness of the rationality issue on two grounds, though: (1) I can easily see an obsessive and not-entirely-rational Solar having done this and (2) I think you are too quick to judge what might be a rational undertaking for someone whose lifetime is measured in millenia and who might have near unlimited resources and a rather obscure and varied set of needs. You're almost certainly correct for most Solars... but all it takes is one or two. -szilard

XP is the main resource in question, and it is the only resource that remains difficult to gather as Essence increases. Also, "someone incapable of being rational might have done it," is not really a very good answer to, "a rational person wouldn't."

At any rate, I've said my spiel about Why I Think It Unlikely, so let's move on to the more interesting matter of What It Would Look Like! I mentioned this to Will, and I think I agree with him that such a style would need more internal structure than just a Form and a pinnacle; I think you would expect something like a chain of nesting Forms, or perhaps, as with PAoC, independently complete substyles that assemble into one grand style, à la Voltron. What're your ideas? - willows

I can think of a couple ways to handle it... but, yes, structure would be needed. Unfortunately, I need to be at work now... -szilard

I like the idea that what differentiates between different types of martial arts is the starting point, not the end. As szilard mentioned, there are disadvantages to that approach. Maybe say something like all arts must have at least one charm per Essence level. Thus you could even have a Terrestrial art that reached up to Essence 7, although the pinnical would have depth of 7+, so it probably wouldn't be all that useful. -FlowsLikeBits

Okay... so a couple of considerations: I think it does matter who would actually create such a MA style and that individual's reasons for doing so, as it is likely that these styles wold be highly idiosyncratic. On the other hand, they are still Celestial level martial arts... and the canon CMA styles aren't terribly structurally interesting. I like the idea of something like PAoC (it has structure, but it is pretty straightforward), but working its way up from low essence to high... perhaps the first tier pinnacle charms are the second tier form(s). Here's an example: We assume a High-Essence First Age Solar Martial Artist wants to open a dojo for young Solars and Lunars. He has a huge ego and decides that aspiring martial artists should learn to fight like he does, so he begins to codify his fighting style into a martial art. We might imagine that he will require his students to master the basics in several areas (offence, defense, speed, balance, tickling ones enemies with feathers, etc.) which would amount to learning several seemingly separate (and seemingly complete) MA trees that, once they have mastered them, merge and continue on to greater Charms... -szilard

Hehe! I'm doing your Heaven Over Earth thing backwards, starting with CMoSS. - willows