Rulings/SnakeStrikesTheHeel

Date asked: September 09, 2006
Rule set: Second Edition
Rules area: Applying the dice adder cap to a charm that isn't specifically a dice adder.

Posted by IanPrice

Over in TrialByFireRulings/SnakeStrikesTheHeel/ShunVersusSilk you can see a battle between two solars with Sidereal Martial Arts. Potent stuff, to be sure, but at the moment a problem has come up with one of the celestial charms: Snake Strikes the Heel. According to Ambisinister, since this charm creates a dice pool rather than adding to one, it shouldn't be under the dice-adder cap. However, this would allow him to intentionally give up his DV, still take no damage due to Adamant Skin Technique, and launch a counterattack with 45 dice! (5 MA + 23 successes on my attack + 2 stunt + 10 1st MA Excellency + 5 Valor) This is half again what the dice adder cap would normally limit his MA attacks to (31 dice between his specialty and orichalcum weapon, with the same valor channel). If I had rolled better, the charm would be even more powerful still.

So, while I don't want to whine just because it could beat me, I don't think any celestial martial arts charm should be able to get you an arbitrarily large number of dice, flaunting dice-adder caps.

The following rules may help in resolving this:

• Exalted Second Edition, pg. 241: Snake Strikes the Heel charm text: "The dice pool for this counterattack equals the Exalt's Martial Arts score plus the number of extra successes rolled on the opponent's attack."
• Exalted Second Edition, pg. 185: Charms and Pools sidebar: "Charms can increase a Lawgiver's dice pool by only an amount equal to the relevant Attribute + Ability." and "If there is no applicable Attribute, Charms can add only a number of dice equal to the character's Ability."

Resolution

None yet.

Discussion

After re-reading SStH, I don't think i am unsure as to whether or not I benefit from specialties or weapon accuracy on this attack. - Ambisinister

You don't. I'm also wondering whether or not SStH should be able to get more dice from my attack roll than the dice-adder limit. - IanPrice

I don't know. My inclination is that since the charm isn't a dice adder, it shouldn't be capped. If the charm was a dice adder, then a character's ability to use the 1st Excellency to modify the roll would be affected, and if that was the case you'd think it'd be mentioned in the charm. - Ambisinister

It seems to me that even if Snake Strikes the Heel is to be allowed to create an arbitrarily large dice pool, the 1st MAE has to at least be cut down to adding only the character's MA in dice, since no attribute is involved. - IanPrice

I agree with IanPrice here. I gotta agree with Ambisinister though. Your talking about the base pool base pool being created ex-nilo, so that shouldn't be capped. (The alternative would be "a counter attack using only their Martial Arts ability with a number of bonuse dice equal to the attackers successes". That would be fairly useless though). But yeah, the First Melee Excellency would be capped at MA dice then. - FlowsLikeBits

Shouldn't it? I don't think MA x 2 is good (that's a Terrestrial size counterattack), but I don't think that exceeding [(Dex + MA) x 2 + Accuracy + Specialties] is good either. I would argue that since this is a Martial Arts attack, it could be inferred that its limits are based on how good such an attack could get if made normally and enhanced by charms. The charm could thus build the normal pool, then add the normal amount of dice bonus, then stop. Exceeding this limit shouldn't happen in Celestial Martial Arts. - IanPrice

Personally, I don't really mind the fact that you can exceed the number of dice you would throw normally. As written, the charm kinda sucks, as it's kinda based on the 1E model of people not having DV.(Under nomal circumstances, it's gonna be much smaller than your normal pool. So it's not gonna do anything). I don't think it's really a problem, as if an oppent can throw enough successes to exceed (Dex + MA) x 2 + Accuracy + Specialties...they can probably deal with the attack I would think. I'd be inclined to just let it do it's thing. If the charm had said, "make a MA counter attack with your MA in dice with a bonus number of successes equal to half the attackers successes," it would be almost the same thing and we wouldn't have this problem. -FlowsLikeBits is inclined to let the coolness happen

Is it coolness to allow someone to create a defense/counterattack that can wait for the successes to be rolled, then decide whether to just take no damage or to not ONLY take no damage but also throw an insane counter-assault? Is it coolness to never be safe in attacking unless you have a perfect defense handy and charm use available? Is it coolness for a Celestial Martial Arts charm, supposedly less powerful than a standard Solar charm, to be able to create a pool of 40, or with a luckier roll, 50 or 60 dice at Essence 3? Is it cool for an Essence 3 Solar to be able to stand up to a Deathlord because he has this Combo? If so, I'll conceed the point. I, however, think that the ability to penalize the opponent for rolling well after waiting to see their roll needs a limit, or it's not cool at all. The one limit that the charm inherently has is that you have to be hit by an attack, but using AST, ISC, or even Bottomless Depths Defense, or even a high soak and hardness (especially with a Twilight anima and/or Starmetal armor), makes that moot. It's a game breaker, and no fun. - IanPrice

I'm quite possibly out of place here, since this is the first time I've actually stuck my nose into posting on the wiki, but I've been running a couple situations in my head on this one. Snake Strikes the Heel comboed with a solid Damage-ignoring charm, whether it's Adamant Skin Technique, Iron Skin Concentration, or pretty much anything in that suite, is an I Win button. As a hypothetical example, consider what would happen if the First and Forsaken Lion were to attack an Essence 4 Solar who had MA 5, SStH, and AST, rolling, shall we say, 50 successes (not necessarily very far out of the realm of possibility for someone of that power level). Immediately after the Solar sees that this attack will hit with an astounding number of successes, he declares activation of his counterattack combo, taking no damage because of AST, and rolling a 55-die attack pool against the Lion, penalized only by the Lion's appropriate DV. Unless the Lion has a defensive charm in the combo he was using, and declared the use of the combo, that's somewhere around 40 dice rolled to attack, using the damage of whatever the Solar happens to be carrying as a weapon (Grand Daiklave, Grand Piano, Cynis Denovah Avaku, etc...) regardless of the weapon the Solar was attacked with. The Solar takes no damage, the Lion probably takes at least three damage, and if the Solar was descriptive enough, the Solar regains the willpower they spent on activating the combo. On the next round, our Solar does...NOTHING, saving his charm action. The Lion can either attack and get smacked again, or also do nothing, resulting in a not-cool, not-fun situation. I suppose what I'm really trying to say is simple. In a situation where this combo is worth the cost of activation, it is not only a powerful charm, but an I Win button. It not only reinforces the primacy of defense, it adds insult to injury by actively penalizing someone who has a good roll on the attack. There is nothing fun about rolling even 10 successes on an attack roll, then having the damage negated and my 10 successes turned into an instant, free attack against me, and a starting Solar can have access to this maneuver. Think of how much less fun it would be to roll a 40 success attack and not only have it ignored, but get hit upside the head with a 40-die counterattack for my impudence? This combo circumvents the one actual restriction of SStH, turning it from a potentially powerful but limited-application charm into what is practically a must-have combo for any martial artist. A combo like this turns combat between Exalts into nothing more than a flinching contest. If even one of the combatants posesses a combo similar to this in potency, it becomes either a slap-fight, with nobody willing to use the charms which would boost dice pools high enough to do actual damage (because oh God, what if I hit, and he hits me back instead, and I die?) or a staring contest, with each combatant simply staring at each other, delaying and holding their action until someone acts, and heaven help the one who acts against this combo. I do not think this application of the charms is cool at all. I think that this way lies madness. -SteveMattson

So what we're saying is this charm, as written, isn't "cool" because it allows you to royally kick someone's ass if used in a combo with another charm? -Gamerjoe

Actually, that's not what I'm saying. I am in favor of combos royally kicking ass. I am not in favor of combos which require a silver bullet to stop. This particular one is composed of two charms, both of which are very effective individually.

1) Adamant Skin Technique. An Essence 3 Charm which says "For 3 motes of Essence, I perfectly defend against raw damage, ignoring any attack, from any opponent, that would damage me by inflicting dice of damage". If the incoming attack would inflict serious damage, but is not coming in with enough successes to be worth the combo, then Adamant Skin Technique stops it.

2) Snake Strikes the Heel. An Essence 3 Charm in the basic Martial Arts style which says "When I am successfully attacked, I create a dice pool for an instant counterattack, using my Martial Arts as the base, but instead of applying my Dexterity, I use the number of successes in the attack to fill out the dice pool". If the incoming attack would generate a high number of successes, therefore making the counterattack powerful, but would not deal enough raw damage to significantly inconvenience me, then Snake Strikes the Heel is all I need to activate.

I have no problem with either charm. They are base-book charms, and they have been fundamentally unchanged except in cost since first edition. Any problems that I would have are not appropriate for this page, anyway. What I have a problem with is the following.

3) By comboing Snake Strikes the Heel with an effect which avoids damage entirely, but does not remove successes, whether that is Adamant Skin Technique, Spirit Strengthens the Skin, Iron Skin Concentration, Death-Parrying Blow, or anything in that vein, that allows you to:

a) Wait until successes have been rolled to decide whether it is worth activating the whole combo, or whether just one part would be enough, and

b) Generate a counterattack using an arbitrarily high number of dice for a total of either 3 motes, or 6 motes and a willpower, or 6 motes and the use of two independent actions.

I am opposed to any combination that allows the generation of an arbitrary number of dice for 3 motes, with no drawback whatsoever. I am opposed to any combination that punishes someone for being cool. I am opposed to any combination that requires a silver bullet to get around, and otherwise dictates the course of the fight and all other fights. With a combination like this, a Solar could conceivably use no other charms, ever, and dominate the course of battles. Well, sorry. Immunity to Everything Technique would also be important, in case someone tries to use one of the few things which can sidestep Adamant Skin Technique.

Now, if Snake Strikes the Heel were something along the lines of "This charm generates a counterattack equal to your Martial Arts rating. Dice may be added to this pool at a cost of 1 mote per die (or even 1 mote per 2 dice) up to an amount equal to the opponent's successes on their attack roll. Dice from this source do not count against the normal dice cap for dice adding effects" I would be fine with it, because then, for an arbitrarily high dice pool, the Exalt would have to pay a high amount. As it stands, though, I believe that the combo is significantly overpowered. I realize that I may be attacked for "judging charms on the basis of combos" but without doing so, the utility of a charm can't properly be tested. This is a combo that I would not have fun playing or playing against. I respect the usefulness, I salute the power, but I do not like it. - SteveMattson

In response to that, I feel the need to point out two things. First, anyone with over 250 XP who is a serious combatant would have to be a complete idiot not to include defensive Charms in all their Combos (I would say over 100 XP, but there it's faintly possible), and second, the defense and counterattack is requiring two seperate powerful effects to be put in play, which the Lion could stop just by not Comboing. His natural pools are enough that any non-high experience character would be forced to outspend the Lion (Perfect Defense + Counterattack against Perfect Defense) to continue this 'unbeatable' strategy. Or he could back up and throw things. Or he could use smaller attacks, that are just high enough to beat DV without allowing insane die pools. The key to SStH is that it requires powerful opponents to function, which I think is brilliant, thematic, and perfectly fine. - FrivYeti

I freely admit that I chose an extremely hyperbolic example, and you're right in everything you've said to refute that. I also agree that SStH is thematically appropriate. What I was trying to get across is largely what I said above: That taking a "perfectly fine" charm and sidestepping the only drawback it has (not "mitigating", not "lessening", but utterly ignoring) is overly powerful. I may have chosen the wrong example, but I'm still not convinced that the combination is thematically okay. Mechanically, yes, it works. I don't like the themes this opens up. - SteveMattson

OK, so Ian, what you're saying is that you think the charm is overpowered as a celestial level martial art, because it allows for a character to potentially generate a counterattack that exceeds a die pool created with the die adder cap. There are other celestial martial arts that allow a break to the die adder cap. Four Halo Golden Monkey Realignment adds automatic success to MA attack pools and automatic successes are in excess of the die adder cap. There is also Body of War Meditation, which boosts attributes and, as far as I can tell from your use of it, not only does it not count as bonus dice, but it increases the die adder cap as well by boosting attributes. Moving along, you make it sound like this charm is utterly unbeatable, which is not true at all. A mortal, with a rock, at 10 yards, beats this charm. If you actually put charms into the mix then there's a whole plethora of methods that can be used to defeat it. You go on to state that this charm, when used with other charms in a combo to augment its strengths and ameliorate its weaknesses, is even more broken as a result. Well, that's sort of the point of combos. To me that's like saying seven shadow evasion is broken if you include it in a 9 charm attack combo because it allows you to use your combo and then not get hit. At most the charm is guilty of forcing an opponent to fight strategically. Gerenally speaking, the charm is not going to generate ridiculous die pools in every day use and the only reason it is doing so here is because sidereal martial arts are involved. On top of that, characters who can generate 23 success hits are also capable of dealing with the same without charm use, as evidenced in this case by your character's unmodified dodge DV of 25.-Ambisinister

What the rules actually say on this is pretty clear, based on the example on page 185 where the "maximum increase" allowed to a roll based on "Essence + Presence + 10" is "Presence". Since the base pool here is "Martial Arts + some number unrelated to an Attribute", First Excellency can only add Martial Arts dice. Page 185 is all about setting limits on increases from charms. As far as I can tell, there is no limit to the size of actual pools. What the rules intend to say is less clear. Part of me thinks that the designers would agree that the charm was overpowered and another part of me thinks they would say it is just a good use of a combo. As far as how the charm should work, I think I would house rule an upper limit on the counterattack pool as a specific modification to Snake Strikes the Heel, something like double (Dex + MA). - Wordman

As was mentioned, it's hardly an "I win" button, as anyone can throw enough successes to give that big a pool will have a defence capable of stopping arbitrarily big attacks. You could houserule it, but that really just feels like it's stopping people from being clever. Unfortunatly, Exalted can't decide weather it want's hard limits on charachter power per Essence Level, or it wants people to be able to sneak around them. The end result is you have some limits, but with sneaking. (I.e. bonus successes, penalties, etc). The first feels more "fair" in some ways, but makes everyone kinda all the same, and means you can't actually beat more powerful opponents, while the second causes situations like this. A "Double Dex + MA" limit would work, but I don't think it's really needed. -FlowsLikeBits

What if the damage inflicted was entirely based off the counter-attack successes? I'm probably wrong, no books at hand, but SStH is a Counter-Attack that uses the foe's attack against himself? If that is the case, then why is the Snake Sylist adding his Strength, Weapon, Charm bonuses etc to the damage roll? Or perhaps I'm saying, if I'm wrong with my memory, that this may be a way to limit the Combo's uberness while still retaining the SStH effectiveness... Just a thought. I'm still blown away by the outcome. nikink

The problem I have with this entire argument goes thusly. One character whips out a mega-killer attack with lots of successes. The other character throws those successes back at him, taking nothing in return. The first person feels that isn't very fair, because it "breaks the rules" yet without breaking them. Then the first player calls it some funny name, like the "I win" button. To me, this seems like what you find in less mature gaming. Someone trumps you because they knew of and used a charm or feat or proficiency or spell that did something that hurts you big time and you're upset you weren't able to stop it.

I know that isn't what the intent here is. I know it can't be, because while I don't know Ian personally, I know he isn't that type of person. But I have a hard time seeing the argument a CMA charm MIGHT break a dice adder limit if your opponent whips out a crap ton of successes is somehow more powerful than other CMA charms, such as the Wood style that breaks your freaking soul if it hits you. CMA isn't the wuss-level MA styles, it's the "Oh my god, he cut off my freaking face and burned it to gain a willpower back" level. TMA is the "Oh my god, he broke my face" level and SMA is the "did I even have a face?" level.Gamerjoe