Difference between revisions of "IanPrice/DescendingEarthOld"
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*Impossible Unseen Strike: from ''Scroll of the Monk'' in Even Blade Style. Requires 9 prerequisite charms, MA 5, Essence 3. For 4m and a willpower, allows an attack which is perfectly undetectable - unless the person in question has special sensory charms, in which case they may roll. No immunity clause. | *Impossible Unseen Strike: from ''Scroll of the Monk'' in Even Blade Style. Requires 9 prerequisite charms, MA 5, Essence 3. For 4m and a willpower, allows an attack which is perfectly undetectable - unless the person in question has special sensory charms, in which case they may roll. No immunity clause. | ||
| − | :Again, I see these charms as being equivalent in power. And when you look at the pinnacle charms of this style, consider that there are 10 charms before you walk the final path of the Master charms. That's a big investment in one style, so you deserve a power boost in my opinion. - IanPrice, ''who is happy to get the commentary, by the way.'' | + | :Again, I see these charms as being equivalent in power. And when you look at the pinnacle charms of this style, consider that there are 10 charms before you walk the final path of the Master charms. That's a big investment in one style, so you deserve a power boost in my opinion. - [[IanPrice]], ''who is happy to get the commentary, by the way.'' |
| − | I'd have to agree with Kukla - primarily because I cannot imagine any scenario where, building a solar fighter, I wouldn't buy at least to Eternal Stance and Perfected Stance. Bent Knees is significantly stronger than Owl Seizes Mouse, an abyssal equivalent that is a charm use and costs lots of essence. Eyes on the Enemy is stronger than Observer Deceiving, which is likewise a solar-level effect that costs a charm use and essence, and Hand of the Master is way better than Solar Counterattack. I love the style and thematics of the tree, it's just that when I first glanced at it I had thought some of it was too strong for Celestial Martial Arts. - TheHoverpope <I>who really likes these seasonal trees. | + | I'd have to agree with Kukla - primarily because I cannot imagine any scenario where, building a solar fighter, I wouldn't buy at least to Eternal Stance and Perfected Stance. Bent Knees is significantly stronger than Owl Seizes Mouse, an abyssal equivalent that is a charm use and costs lots of essence. Eyes on the Enemy is stronger than Observer Deceiving, which is likewise a solar-level effect that costs a charm use and essence, and Hand of the Master is way better than Solar Counterattack. I love the style and thematics of the tree, it's just that when I first glanced at it I had thought some of it was too strong for Celestial Martial Arts. - [[TheHoverpope]] <I>who really likes these seasonal trees.[[IanPrice/I]]> |
| − | Also should say that when I first read these, my first thought was "Wow. This is a really well thought-out Celestial MA." Some of the charms are great, but I'm seeing a lot of perfects, and a lot of permanents that are ''really'' nice in this tree. The charms I'm concerned about aren't the ones you mention either - it's the ones that TheHoverpopse mentions, for example. I think the style is great, and you might want to consider re-purposing it as a Celestial style (after some modifications), but I don't easily see how you can keep the awesome and also make it a Terrestrial MA. -- GreenLantern | + | Also should say that when I first read these, my first thought was "Wow. This is a really well thought-out Celestial MA." Some of the charms are great, but I'm seeing a lot of perfects, and a lot of permanents that are ''really'' nice in this tree. The charms I'm concerned about aren't the ones you mention either - it's the ones that [[TheHoverpopse]] mentions, for example. I think the style is great, and you might want to consider re-purposing it as a Celestial style (after some modifications), but I don't easily see how you can keep the awesome and also make it a Terrestrial MA. -- [[GreenLantern]] |
| − | Awright, I'll tone it down post-form at least. Looking back at the form itself, that really was quite overpowered, and I've brought the numbers in line. However, I disagree about Hand of the Master. It can only do a set amount of damage, limited by your defense value and how much your opponent sucks. Admittedly, it does this damage very potently, and I'm taking out the defense inapplicability. I'm not familiar with Owl Seizes Mouse. However, Bent Knees is one of the weakest charms in my eyes. It negates high DVs, true, but someone else with a good grapple pool can immediately start grappling you. Anyway, my fix for those five post-form charms is to add a small mote cost. Honestly, Observer-Deceiving attack is not at a Solar power level; I consider it a poor place to judge from, because the charm is poorly worded and easily penetrated by heroic mortals, let alone other Exalts. Finally, I don't feel the pinnacle charm needed much changing, but I have made it Simple while extending its duration to make it slightly more difficult to use. - IanPrice | + | Awright, I'll tone it down post-form at least. Looking back at the form itself, that really was quite overpowered, and I've brought the numbers in line. However, I disagree about Hand of the Master. It can only do a set amount of damage, limited by your defense value and how much your opponent sucks. Admittedly, it does this damage very potently, and I'm taking out the defense inapplicability. I'm not familiar with Owl Seizes Mouse. However, Bent Knees is one of the weakest charms in my eyes. It negates high DVs, true, but someone else with a good grapple pool can immediately start grappling you. Anyway, my fix for those five post-form charms is to add a small mote cost. Honestly, Observer-Deceiving attack is not at a Solar power level; I consider it a poor place to judge from, because the charm is poorly worded and easily penetrated by heroic mortals, let alone other Exalts. Finally, I don't feel the pinnacle charm needed much changing, but I have made it Simple while extending its duration to make it slightly more difficult to use. - [[IanPrice]] |
:Owl Seizes Mouse is an Abyssal Charm that makes a grapple attack unblockable and undodgable. What you've done with Bent Knees is render the attack roll irrelevant, which is much, much stronger than simply making it unblockable or undodgable. And you've done it as a Permanent effect. As for Hand of the Master, I can't see much of any justification for unsoakable, Hardness-ignoring, automatic levels of damage in ''any'' Terrestrial Charm, no matter the prerequisites. | :Owl Seizes Mouse is an Abyssal Charm that makes a grapple attack unblockable and undodgable. What you've done with Bent Knees is render the attack roll irrelevant, which is much, much stronger than simply making it unblockable or undodgable. And you've done it as a Permanent effect. As for Hand of the Master, I can't see much of any justification for unsoakable, Hardness-ignoring, automatic levels of damage in ''any'' Terrestrial Charm, no matter the prerequisites. | ||
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::On Bent Knees, I continue to disagree. I've given the opponent the chance to immediately control the grapple, and thus I attack, he beats my roll, ''he gets a free counterattack'' effectively. | ::On Bent Knees, I continue to disagree. I've given the opponent the chance to immediately control the grapple, and thus I attack, he beats my roll, ''he gets a free counterattack'' effectively. | ||
| − | ::On Hand of the Master, I do not take "no, never" for a reason. However, given the continued objections, I've reviewed it and decided to increase the cost again. - IanPrice | + | ::On Hand of the Master, I do not take "no, never" for a reason. However, given the continued objections, I've reviewed it and decided to increase the cost again. - [[IanPrice]] |
:::And if he doesn't, you have, as a permanent effect, rendered any possible defense unavailable, including - by a strict reading of the rules - ''perfect defenses,'' as skipping the attack step means there is no Step 2 on which to activate HGD or 7SE. Skipping the attack step, much like making a perfect-trumping attack, is one of those things that simply breaks the Charm engine if you try it. That you are willing to do so as a Terrestrial Charm of Permanent duration simply blows my mind. - [[Hapushet]], ''letting the matter drop at this point'' | :::And if he doesn't, you have, as a permanent effect, rendered any possible defense unavailable, including - by a strict reading of the rules - ''perfect defenses,'' as skipping the attack step means there is no Step 2 on which to activate HGD or 7SE. Skipping the attack step, much like making a perfect-trumping attack, is one of those things that simply breaks the Charm engine if you try it. That you are willing to do so as a Terrestrial Charm of Permanent duration simply blows my mind. - [[Hapushet]], ''letting the matter drop at this point'' | ||
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::No. That's silly. You can use 7SE or HGD to escape a clinch when making the control roll to determine who's on top. And I wouldn't play in a game so rules-letter-focused as to let clinching override perfection. Sure, it overrides parry and dodge enhancements, but for applicability trumping defenses, it is the same as if it said "un(defense)able." | ::No. That's silly. You can use 7SE or HGD to escape a clinch when making the control roll to determine who's on top. And I wouldn't play in a game so rules-letter-focused as to let clinching override perfection. Sure, it overrides parry and dodge enhancements, but for applicability trumping defenses, it is the same as if it said "un(defense)able." | ||
| − | ::Now, looking at it that way, I can understand the discomfort. However, I really want to test this portion of the style before changing it, since at the same time it INCREDIBLY buffs enhancements to the opponent's clinch pool. It is my opinion that this charm is a hindrance when fighting a whole range of opponents, from Terrestrial Hero Stylists (who get persistent grappling bonuses from their form) to Solars with Infinite Martial Arts Mastery (who can easily overpower the terrestrial master's dice pool). It is not uncommon for Terrestrial styles to be more powerful in the hands of Celestial Exalts. In short, I want to wait and see. I think a free counterattack balances negating the standard forms of defense. After all, it does not negate defense - it transforms it. If this ability turns out to be particularly useful in testing, I'll probably put a cost on it much like I did the others. - IanPrice | + | ::Now, looking at it that way, I can understand the discomfort. However, I really want to test this portion of the style before changing it, since at the same time it INCREDIBLY buffs enhancements to the opponent's clinch pool. It is my opinion that this charm is a hindrance when fighting a whole range of opponents, from Terrestrial Hero Stylists (who get persistent grappling bonuses from their form) to Solars with Infinite Martial Arts Mastery (who can easily overpower the terrestrial master's dice pool). It is not uncommon for Terrestrial styles to be more powerful in the hands of Celestial Exalts. In short, I want to wait and see. I think a free counterattack balances negating the standard forms of defense. After all, it does not negate defense - it transforms it. If this ability turns out to be particularly useful in testing, I'll probably put a cost on it much like I did the others. - [[IanPrice]] |
Latest revision as of 20:59, 8 June 2010
Stand as Stone
Cost: None Minimums: Essence 1, MA 2 Type: Permanent Keywords: None Duration: Permanent Prerequisite Charms: None
Constant training makes the stance of these martial artists perfect. Wound penalties do not affect their DV.
Fist of Stone
Cost: None Minimums: Essence 1, MA 3 Type: Permanent Keywords: None Duration: Permanent Prerequisite Charms: Stand as Stone
Blows thrown from a strong stance are superior to others. Add the Jade Magical Material profile to this martial artist's unarmed attacks.
Eternal Stance
Cost: None Minimums: Essence 1, MA 4 Type: Permanent Keywords: None Duration: Permanent Prerequisite Charms: Fist of Stone
With ever increasing perfection of stance, difficulties which would cripple other martial artists are nothing to this school. The Martial Artist may spend 1m to reduce any internal environmental penalties to Martial Arts actions and DVs by Martial Arts, and reduce all external environmental penalties to the same by half of that value, for one action.
Perfected Stance
Cost: None Minimums: Essence 1, MA 5 Type: Permanent Keywords: None Duration: Permanent Prerequisite Charms: Eternal Stance
The final perfection of stance makes an opponent's attempts at attack and defense laughable. Increase DVs by +1, and ignore 1 point of all opponents' DVs. Also, the martial artist may spend 1m to increase the minimum damage of one attack by 1, or to decrease the minimum damage of his opponent's attack by 1.
Descending Earth Form
Cost: 6m Minimums: Essence 2, MA 5 Type: Simple (Speed 7, DV -0) Keywords: Form-Type Duration: Scene Prerequisite Charms: Perfected Stance
Having mastered her stance, a student is ready to become a master and teach others. The master of a class who walks among the students correcting their stance is using this form. Assuming this form fills the master with the knowledge of a good stance, making any errors glaringly obvious. In combat, this makes it easy to take advantage of these errors. The advantage is greatest against other martial artists and anyone attempting to simply avoid the master's attacks - subtract half her Essence from the Dodge or Martial Arts Parry DV of such a defender. Against others, simply add one automatic success to the attack. The Master's own Dodge and Parry DVs add 1 automatic success
Straight Ankles
Cost: None Minimums: Essence 2, MA 5 Type: Permanent Keywords: None Duration: Permanent Prerequisite Charms: Descending Earth Form
Weak ankle position is a critical flaw in the stance of many fighters. The master may always trip an opponent with a successful attack, without accepting a penalty to his attack roll, by spending 1m. Opponents must take twice the normal penalty to trip him, however. If two masters with this charm each spend a mote, each faces only the normal penalty to attempt a trip.
Bent Knees
Cost: None Minimums: Essence 2, MA 5 Type: Permanent Keywords: None Duration: Permanent Prerequisite Charms: Descending Earth Form
Especially after holding position for a long time, students often straighten their knees rather than keeping them safely bent. This mistake makes a fighter off-balance, and easy to grapple. The master may forego an attack roll when clinching, instead starting with a control roll for the clinch. Unfortunately, if the opponent wins this contested roll, they immediately gain the benefit of controlling the grapple and may do with the initiator as they wish. Two masters of this charm fighting each other would make attack rolls to begin the clinch with each other as usual.
Hands Guarding
Cost: None Minimums: Essence 2, MA 5 Type: Permanent Keywords: None Duration: Permanent Prerequisite Charms: Descending Earth Form
The guard presented by most students is weak. By spending 1m1w, the master easily penetrates such a guard; his attack is considered perfect when opposing the Martial Arts Parry DV of any person who does not know this charm.
Eyes on the Enemy
Cost: None Minimums: Essence 2, MA 5 Type: Permanent Keywords: None Duration: Permanent Prerequisite Charms: Descending Earth Form
Students sometimes forget to pay attention to the master. Such lapses, even for a moment, invite a severe caning. A master of this charm may spend 1m to treat any opponent who was not attacked by her on her previous action as unaware of her Martial Arts attack if that opponent both fails a Perception + Awareness roll (opposed by the master's Dexterity + Martial Arts roll to hit) and does not possess this charm.
Mind on the Present
Cost: None Minimums: Essence 2, MA 5 Type: Permanent Keywords: None Duration: Permanent Prerequisite Charms: Descending Earth Form
A wandering mind serves a warrior poorly. The master of this charm can spot such a mind with ease. The master may spend 1m to triple the DV penalty of any action or flurry not including attacking the master by any opponent who is not also a master of this charm.
Cane of the Master
Cost: 1m Minimums: Essence 3, MA 5 Type: Reflexive Keywords: Combo-OK, Social Duration: Instant Prerequisite Charms: Straight Ankles, Bent Knees, Hands Guarding, Eyes on the Enemy, Mind on the Present
Despite the name, this charm does not require use of a cane - masters just traditionally do use it. This is a Martial Arts counterattack, Dexterity + Martial Arts to hit, inflicting 1 bashing damage (unsoakable, ignores hardness). This counterattack may be performed in response to social attacks as well as physical ones, if the offending speaker is within reach. Those whose social attacks are countered must spend 1 willpower or else shut up, cowed by the rebuke of the Great Martial Arts Master. The defense against this counterattack is always physical DV, and even socialites take the bashing damage from being whacked upside the head.
Hand of the Master
Cost: 3m/hl, 1w Minimums: Essence 3, MA 5 Type: Reflexive Keywords: Combo-OK Duration: Instant Prerequisite Charms: Cane of the Master
Masters of Descending Earth Style treat all opponents like their students, punishing weak attacks with stern reprisals. Activate this reprisal in response to a missed attack - make a perfect counterattack. Extra successes on the attack roll (Dexterity + Martial Arts) do not add damage. The damage of this attack is purchased at 3 motes per health level, up to a flat number of automatic health levels equal to the amount the attack being countered failed by, and this damage is unsoakable, and ignores hardness. The damage may be bashing or lethal at the master's option.
Stance of the Master
Cost: 10m Minimums: Essence 4, MA 5 Type: Simple Keywords: Combo-OK Duration: (Essence) actions Prerequisite Charms: Hand of the Master
Ultimately, after correcting the stances of endless students and opponents, the master of this style progresses beyond perfection in his stance. Assuming the attitude of this charm, any stance the master chooses to take is perfect. Until his DV refreshes a number of times equal to his Essence, the master ignores all penalties to DV save inapplicability (which is not a penalty), and all penalties to attacks save his opponent's DV.
Comments
Stylistically I'm in love, but balance-wise, these rival a lot of Solar charms in power and certainly trump them in affordability. Do you have any plans to revise this? -- Kukla
- I don't see these rivaling Solar charms. As for affordability, yes, the style is about permanent charms - that's not going to change even if I'm convinced the power level needs to, as I see it being part of the core concept I'm shooting for. Quick comparison:
- Stand as Stone: for free, wound penalties (one type of penalty though fairly common) do not affect DV (only part of what they'd normally affect)
- Threshold Warding Stance: For 1m, penalties associated with being in a poor position to dodge (more common than most people realize in actual combat situations) are eliminated completely. DBs can use this without a combo since it's reflexive.
- These two charms have equivalent Essence and Ability prerequisites and neither one has a prerequisite charm. So, equivalent terrestrial level. Similarly, some later charms:
- Eyes on the Enemy: requires 5 prerequisite charms, MA 5, Essence 2. Allows every other action to be an attack the target is unaware of, but allows a roll to resist AND immunity if the target posesses this charm.
- Impossible Unseen Strike: from Scroll of the Monk in Even Blade Style. Requires 9 prerequisite charms, MA 5, Essence 3. For 4m and a willpower, allows an attack which is perfectly undetectable - unless the person in question has special sensory charms, in which case they may roll. No immunity clause.
- Again, I see these charms as being equivalent in power. And when you look at the pinnacle charms of this style, consider that there are 10 charms before you walk the final path of the Master charms. That's a big investment in one style, so you deserve a power boost in my opinion. - IanPrice, who is happy to get the commentary, by the way.
I'd have to agree with Kukla - primarily because I cannot imagine any scenario where, building a solar fighter, I wouldn't buy at least to Eternal Stance and Perfected Stance. Bent Knees is significantly stronger than Owl Seizes Mouse, an abyssal equivalent that is a charm use and costs lots of essence. Eyes on the Enemy is stronger than Observer Deceiving, which is likewise a solar-level effect that costs a charm use and essence, and Hand of the Master is way better than Solar Counterattack. I love the style and thematics of the tree, it's just that when I first glanced at it I had thought some of it was too strong for Celestial Martial Arts. - TheHoverpope who really likes these seasonal trees.IanPrice/I>
Also should say that when I first read these, my first thought was "Wow. This is a really well thought-out Celestial MA." Some of the charms are great, but I'm seeing a lot of perfects, and a lot of permanents that are really nice in this tree. The charms I'm concerned about aren't the ones you mention either - it's the ones that TheHoverpopse mentions, for example. I think the style is great, and you might want to consider re-purposing it as a Celestial style (after some modifications), but I don't easily see how you can keep the awesome and also make it a Terrestrial MA. -- GreenLantern
Awright, I'll tone it down post-form at least. Looking back at the form itself, that really was quite overpowered, and I've brought the numbers in line. However, I disagree about Hand of the Master. It can only do a set amount of damage, limited by your defense value and how much your opponent sucks. Admittedly, it does this damage very potently, and I'm taking out the defense inapplicability. I'm not familiar with Owl Seizes Mouse. However, Bent Knees is one of the weakest charms in my eyes. It negates high DVs, true, but someone else with a good grapple pool can immediately start grappling you. Anyway, my fix for those five post-form charms is to add a small mote cost. Honestly, Observer-Deceiving attack is not at a Solar power level; I consider it a poor place to judge from, because the charm is poorly worded and easily penetrated by heroic mortals, let alone other Exalts. Finally, I don't feel the pinnacle charm needed much changing, but I have made it Simple while extending its duration to make it slightly more difficult to use. - IanPrice
- Owl Seizes Mouse is an Abyssal Charm that makes a grapple attack unblockable and undodgable. What you've done with Bent Knees is render the attack roll irrelevant, which is much, much stronger than simply making it unblockable or undodgable. And you've done it as a Permanent effect. As for Hand of the Master, I can't see much of any justification for unsoakable, Hardness-ignoring, automatic levels of damage in any Terrestrial Charm, no matter the prerequisites.
- On a different tack, I don't think the way you've written up the mote costs for the higher-end effects works. The cost for the Charm should be "-", but the effect should include the activation cost instead. Otherwise you have a weird situation where you spend the mote cost once and then the Charm effect lasts forever afterward. A comparable example would be Solar Hero Form's damage-doubling ability. - Hapushet
- Hand of the Master was supposed to be Instant, I don't know how Permanent got in there. As for the others, it says "none" in the charm cost, which is the same as a dash. The mote costs listed in the text are intended to be similar to your example, or Phantom Arrow Technique.
- On Bent Knees, I continue to disagree. I've given the opponent the chance to immediately control the grapple, and thus I attack, he beats my roll, he gets a free counterattack effectively.
- On Hand of the Master, I do not take "no, never" for a reason. However, given the continued objections, I've reviewed it and decided to increase the cost again. - IanPrice
- And if he doesn't, you have, as a permanent effect, rendered any possible defense unavailable, including - by a strict reading of the rules - perfect defenses, as skipping the attack step means there is no Step 2 on which to activate HGD or 7SE. Skipping the attack step, much like making a perfect-trumping attack, is one of those things that simply breaks the Charm engine if you try it. That you are willing to do so as a Terrestrial Charm of Permanent duration simply blows my mind. - Hapushet, letting the matter drop at this point
- No. That's silly. You can use 7SE or HGD to escape a clinch when making the control roll to determine who's on top. And I wouldn't play in a game so rules-letter-focused as to let clinching override perfection. Sure, it overrides parry and dodge enhancements, but for applicability trumping defenses, it is the same as if it said "un(defense)able."
- Now, looking at it that way, I can understand the discomfort. However, I really want to test this portion of the style before changing it, since at the same time it INCREDIBLY buffs enhancements to the opponent's clinch pool. It is my opinion that this charm is a hindrance when fighting a whole range of opponents, from Terrestrial Hero Stylists (who get persistent grappling bonuses from their form) to Solars with Infinite Martial Arts Mastery (who can easily overpower the terrestrial master's dice pool). It is not uncommon for Terrestrial styles to be more powerful in the hands of Celestial Exalts. In short, I want to wait and see. I think a free counterattack balances negating the standard forms of defense. After all, it does not negate defense - it transforms it. If this ability turns out to be particularly useful in testing, I'll probably put a cost on it much like I did the others. - IanPrice
