Difference between revisions of "Rulings/MovementInFlurries"

Revision as of 08:07, 5 April 2010

Date asked: 22 June 2006
Rule set: Second Edition
Rules area: Flurries, movement

A question regarding movement actions within flurries came up during TrialBySchmendrickRulings/MovementInFlurries/SnakeVsWingedSerpent. The situation is that two combatants are separated by some number of yards, call it 17. Combatant A declares a flurry containing a Dash action as well as a hand-to-hand attack against Combatant B. Based on the dash rules and traits of Combatant A, A can dash, say, 8 yards per tick. Since A must close the distance before he can attack, the questions are:

• How does the timing of this work? Do three ticks pass with A closing 8 yards each, then the attack is resolved?
• Suppose the Speed of the flurry is only 3. Can the attack even be made?
• If ticks pass, does B get to use those ticks to move?
• Suppose B gets an action before A can close. Does this resolve before the end of the flurry?
• Suppose B continues to back away, preventing the gap from being closed for the entire duration of the flurry's Speed. Does the attack in the flurry still happen? If not, what happens to A?

The following rules may help in resolving this:

• Exalted Second Edition, pg. 143: flurries and dashing, in particular:
  • "The character launches a quick series of blows or otherwise performs multiple actions rolled on a single tick."
  • "The flurry remains as long as it was when the character chose to undertake it"
  • "Certain actions are barred from being part of a flurry, as stated in their descriptions."
  • Dash has nothing stating it can't be part of a flurry.
  • Dash, unlike jumping, does not appear to have a limit on how many times it can be in a flurry.
  • Dash provides movement "per tick"
  • Characters suffer a DV penalty "during the tick"
• Exalted Second Edition, pg. 144: jumping, in particular:
  • "a jump is a miscellaneous action... that can be placed in a flurry as normal."
  • "a character can make only one jump in a flurry"
• Exalted Second Edition, pg. 145: move action

Based on the discussion that happened when this page was started, there was a lot of confusion about why people were even discussing this. So, to make it more clear from the start, an extract from the comments:

Since people seem to need convincing that there is a problem worth talking about here, let me try to explain the issue a bit better. It is possible that some of the following is wrong/illogical/illegal. If so, please point me to the page number that describes why, because I don't see it. Train of logic goes like this:

• Flurries are bunches of actions. Not attacks, actions. Usually a flurry contains only multple Attack actions, but it can contain others.
• Some actions, like Attacks, essentially complete on the tick they start, then you wait around for Speed ticks.
• Some actions, like Dash, Aim, and Guard, happen over several ticks, usually doing something each tick until the Speed of the action is done.
• Some actions, like Move, are reflexive and can be done regardless of what else is happening (mostly).
• Flurrys, one presumes, give the full benefit of all the actions it contains.
• One (or, evidently, more) Dash actions may be placed in a flurry. This implies that the flurry contains the movement of the dash.
• Dash movement is measured "per tick".
• The above indicates that a flurry could contain both a Dash and an Attack.
• It is conceivable that someone would use such a flurry to close the distance to their opponent and attack him with the same action.
• In spite of the possibility of a flurry that mixes both "complete on the tick they start" and "incrementally complete per tick" types of actions being clear ramification of the rules, the rules are silent on how a such a flurry plays out.

Resolution

Any canonical resolution of this problem appears to require an interpretation of the the intent of the rules from oblique sources. There are also several house rules that could be brought to bear. In the following sections, those which might reasonably claim to be based on canon are called "intepretations", while those that resolve the problem with rules that clearly don't exist in the text are "house rules". This line is a bit muddy. Feel free to list your name after one of these to "vote" for it. Note that you these aren't mutually exclusive resolutions, so you can vote for more than one.

• Interpretation 1 - Wordman
• Interpretation 2
• House Rule 1
• House Rule 2 - GreenLantern (also HR4)
• House Rule 3
• House Rule 4 - GreenLantern (also HR2)
• House Rule 5
• House Rule 6 - Wordman
• House Rule 7
• House Rule 8 - Suzume

Interpretation 1

This interpretation treats the phrase that states that a flurry "performs multiple actions rolled on a single tick" a the guiding principle to resolve this problem as well as the implicit idea in the rules that, for non-movement actions, you act on your tick. Under this interpretation, for the flurry to be valid, you must attack on the first tick of your action, gaining movement from a single tick of dash motion. On the two ticks following this, you dash some more. Essentially, this interpretation means that putting a tick into a flurry is useful only to a) close a short distance before attacking and/or b) run away after an attack.

This interpretation leaves some questions unanswered, such as using multiple Dash actions or if dashing speed continues for the whole flurry and, if not, if Move actions can be used.

Interpretation 2

Given that all of the rules mentioned in the description as as they are, this interpretation attempts to rationalize some way those rules can all be true without breaking others. It also uses the flurry rules about actions within a flurry becoming inappropriate as its main guidance. Under this interpretation, attacks or other actions in a flurry are made on the first tick in which they are legal (within the Speed of the flurry). If the situation prevents them from being legal before the Speed expires, they are never taken.

This interpretation leaves some questions unanswered, such as using multiple Dash actions or if dashing speed continues for the whole flurry and, if not, if Move actions can be used.

House Rule 1

Most of the problems detailed above are the result of Dash having a Speed of 3, but no other constraints on flurry use. Under this house rule, Dash is replaced by a reflexive action that works just like Move except:

• Max and min movement rate is as per core rules for Dash on pg. 143.
• Either Dash or Move may be used on a single tick, not both.
• On a tick in which a Dash is used, a -2 DV penalty applies and parries may not be made without a stunt or magical assistance.

This rule (or something mechanically identical) appears to be assumed by many people discussing this problem, such as willows and a number of people on the White Wolf forum.

House Rule 2

Works as House Rule 1, but the DV penalty and parry restriction last until DV is refreshed, not just for that tick. Additional Dash ticks taken before DV refreshes do not, however, increase the penalty.

House Rule 3

House Rule 1 essentially eliminates the extra action penalties that would occur from placing Dash in a Flurry. To address this, this rule works just like House Rule 1, but also adds a -2 internal penalty to any attacks made in a tick in which a Dash is used.

House Rule 4

GreenLantern suggested: Attacks and other actions can only be declared on a tick in which they are valid by the current battlefield position of the fighter. Therefore, Dash must be declared seperately from a Flurry containing other actions if those actions are not yet valid. However, a Flurry containing the Dash in progress as the first action could be declared on a later tick in the Dash, if it would be valid. (IP votes here)

Example: A acts on tick 1. B is Aiming. They are 17 yards apart.

1. A Dashes, moving 8 yards forward. B reflexively moves 2 yards back. (11 yards)
2. A continues the dash for 8 more yards, B continues his reflexive move back 2 more yards (5 yards)
3. A dashes forward 8 yards, B, however, acts now, making an Aimed ranged attack (which is, let us say, Speed 4) and Dashing back 9 yards (resulting in 6 yards range, and A never getting to make an attack).
4. B could continue to move another 9 yards. A would get his normal action now. This could be another dash, giving him 8 yards closer.
5. B could move 9 more yards, resulting in 24 yards range if A did not close that gap. Assuming A is dashing, it's only 8 yards distant after this tick's 8 yards moved.
6. B would have to wait on this pass due to the attack he made. At this point, A would catch B, because of B's hesitation from the attack. A could pre-empt B from moving away by initiating a Flurry, considering Dash as the first action and adding whatever Speed the flurry has to this tick. Let us say A performs a Speed 5 attack flurry.
7. B would act normally this pass, and takes some Speed 5 miscellaneous action, such as attacking A or jumping away. A would now act normally as well, but his flurry prevents it.
8. Nobody
9. Nobody
10. Nobody
11. A's DV finally refreshes and A acts normally again.
12. This would be B's next action.

House Rule 5

Actions are resolved at the end of their speed, not at the start.

House Rule 6

The problem with House Rule 1 is that it can be mixed with a bunch of other action types, like Aim, Charm Activation, etc. Instead, treat it as its own action that works just as it does in the core rules, except:

• Its speed is 1.
• Each Dash action included in a flurry allows the character to move at Dash speeds during three different ticks of the flurry, if desired. The character may only use one Dash of this movement prior to taking the non-Dash actions in the flurry and, if he does so, this counts as the first action of the flurry. In ticks where the character does not or cannot Dash, they may use Move actions normally.

For example, a character performs a flurry containing an attack and two dash actions. The two dash actions contribute a total of -4 DV to the flurry, but provide up six ticks of dash movement. With three actions in the flurry, the multiple action penalty starts at -3. On the first tick, the character dashes, then attacks. Thus the attack is considered the second action, and is made with a multiple action penalty of -4. The attack Speed is 5, which sets the duration of the flurry. The character can dash once during each of the remaining ticks, with the last tick of Dash "wasted".

House Rule 7

Give Dash the same flurry constraints as Jumping. That is, only one Dash action may be put into a flurry and only one tick of Dashing is provided. Note that a flurry could contain one Dash and one Jump action.

House Rule 8

Treat Dash as being similar to The Aim and Guard actions. Dash is amended to no longer be flurry-includable. Further, Dash is amended to be interruptable as per Aim and Guard. In this case, the DV penalty (-2) applies until DV refreshes, either at the end of a completed Dash, or at the end of an action that interrupts a Dash, similar to the effects of interrupting an Aim or Guard.

Discussion

Up to 3 of my ticks can be movement with that, as I understand it, since that's the dash. At the same time, I am swinging for my attacks. So, I've got 24 yards movement. If you reflexive move, I'll still get to you. If you dash, you'll get away before I get there on tick 3, but you'll have until tick 4 used at best, and lose your aim. You could refresh your DV at tick 4 and do something before my next action, though, and still be in reflexive move range of me. Or slightly out of it if you prefer to hit me from range with Uncoiling Serpent Prana, which I assume prompts the range comment. However, if you move out of range, I don't activate DSP, aborting my flurry because it's invalidated. -- IanPrice, who is A in this situation

If distance starts at 17, and you move 8 on tick one, and I move 3 away from you on tick one, distance is then 12 at the end of tick 1. On tick 2, same thing, distance goes to 7. One tick 3, the same thing could happpen, ending with a distance of 2; however, at tick three, my Aim is done, and I get an action (though by the rules of Aim, my DV doesn't refresh). Yet, you still haven't attacked. It's disturbing my calm. Also, if you get three ticks of dash (which I guess makes sense, even though that isn't spelled out very well in the book), that would mean, in theory, that you could have added a second Dash action to the flurry to get more ticks of movement. This would give another -2 DV penalty, but wouldn't affect the speed, as far as I can tell. Not saying that would really help or matter in this situation, but if it's true that helps me understand Dash and flurries a bit better. -- Wordman, who is B

Yes, you are correct there, as far as I can tell. And to my mind, the second dash in a flurry could allow up to 3 more ticks of the flurry (if there are such) to include movement. - IanPrice

This seems like a reasonable way to proceed, and I'm good with continuing our trial doing it that way; however, does anyone see anything in the books (or anywhere) else that would confirm that is how it is supposed to work? I find the text of the book silent on the issue, but maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place. Also, anyone got any thoughts on the variations mentioned above? Do most of them just make the flurry abort? -- Wordman

This exchange makes no sense. Attacks don't have durations, and flurries are contained within a tick. - willows

I hate to do it, but I agree with willows. I'm confused why there is a discussion on this, truly. If you're not in range to attack, you don't and can't attack. If you want to get in range, feel free to move or dash. Thus, a flurry containing attacks makes no sense if you can't attack - much like activating a 'simple' charm as part of a flurry, even though you don't have the motes - even though you might soon have them, maybe in 2-3 ticks, it still doesn't work like that. -- GreenLantern

Maybe there is a discussion because they are confused. Give them a break. Oh no, they have a rules question. Lighten up people. Lately I have definitely noticed a lot more impatience and rudeness on this wiki. It is very dissapointing. And they can dash as part of a flurry to get in range. Madoka

Madoka - I'm not intending rudeness or impatience whatsoever. Instead, my comment that "I'm confused why there is a discussion" was intended to illuminate one of two possibilities: (1) That both willows and I "see something" in the text that they might be missing. Something obvious (to us), and thus, possibly easy to skip over in subsequent readings (2) That both Willows and I don't see something, and thus, there is a larger problem with the understanding of the 2E ruleset. Given that both Willows and I are very different people, that implies that there's a real big open area for confusion. So yeah - no rudeness intended at all (especially to Ian, with whom I buried any hatchets long ago) -- GL

My understanding was that you declare what your character is doing on the tick they can act on. So for instance, Ninja-boy makes 2 attacks and a dash, all on tick 4. His action is over after that. Tick 5 and 6 pass, tick 7 comes around and ninja-boy's opponent, Soldier-guy takes his action. Soldier-guy also does a flurry, a dash to close the distance and 2 attacks. Ninja-boy must defend himself. There is no reflexive dashing away when your opponent closes the distance. Unless you have a charm for that, such as a hopping dodge charm, some sort of reflexive athletics charm or whatever else you can think of. And this is only if you haven't already used a charm (unless your dragon-blooded). Once your tick is over, its done. You have to wait the speed of your action in ticks to take any non-reflexive actions. The speed value represents how long it takes to do something. Running, jumping and swinging my axe 3 times takes longer than just swinging my axe once. So the speed increases. If you act on tick 4, have a speed 6 action, you can't act on ticks 5 through 9 because your busy doing your speed 6 action. Although, I just read the rules and its says taking a move action is reflexive. But I think it makes sense to say you can't use move in a flurry. I think you can "move" when your not doing anything else. Because "move" is a continuous action. If you move for 4 ticks, you move your dex/tick.Madoka

Also no offense to anybody, but "everything happens on the tick you act" is not what the rules say. It is implied, but it is not stated. The specific wording is, "Once a character takes her first action in combat, she must wait a number of ticks equal to the Speed rating of her action before she acts again. This delay resets with the Speed ofeach new action and forms the basic cycling structure of combat." (Emphasis theirs in the book)

This implies, and normally functions as if, actions are resolved immediately then there is a waiting period. However, this is not always the case! See the wording of Dash: "sprinting at speeds up to (Dexterity + 6 - Mobility Penalty - current Wound Penalty) yards per tick." (Emphasis mine) The Dash action takes 3 ticks, and specifies that you move on each tick of it. The Aim and Guard actions similarly specify that things occur over time during them. However, unlike Aim and Guard, Dash is permitted to be part of a Flurry. Thus the confusion here. "The Speed rating of a flurry equals the highest Speed of any action taken as part of the cascade." Yet, many actions are taken, and their nature may not (as in this case) allow simultaneous resolution.

Consider that each tick takes 1 second. A dash is 3 seconds of all-out running. In the middle of that dash, a whirling double-attack is taking place. Difficult, but this is Exalted - such mobile combat should be a staple, shouldn't it? The speed of Hook swords (and most swords) dictates that this attack takes 5 seconds to complete. To me, this represents an attack which would actually hit somewhere around the 2nd 3rd tick, but that would be too complex. The Flurry rules, however, say that the whole shebang should thus take 5 seconds - and has a provision for actions happening in a certain order. I contend that the flurry represents the dashing fighter's "wind-up" for the attacks during the dash, so that they may be consummated if the range is close enough. If it does not close, well, as the Flurry description states: "If, when his player declares the flurry, the character chooses an action that later becomes invalid, he may choose to abort the flurry rather than carry out the invalid action." - IanPrice

Refer to the attack steps. - willows

OK. (Rereads). What am I supposed to find there that has any bearing on movement within a flurry? - Wordman

I agree. The entire body of the text of attack steps is silent about this. My communication theory training tells me that in this context, silence indicates that the matter has been dealt with elsewhere in the text. Therefore, I refer to the text of the Dash and Flurry actions. - IanPrice

Since people seem to need convincing that there is a problem worth talking about here, let me try to explain the issue a bit better. It is possible that some of the following is wrong/illogical/illegal. If so, please point me to the page number that describes why, because I don't see it. Train of logic goes like this:

• Flurries are bunches of actions. Not attacks, actions. Usually a flurry contains only multple Attack actions, but it can contain others.
• Some actions, like Attacks, essentially complete on the tick they start, then you wait around for Speed ticks.
• Some actions, like Dash, Aim, and Guard, happen over several ticks, usually doing something each tick until the Speed of the action is done.
• Some actions, like Move, are reflexive and can be done regardless of what else is happening (mostly).
• Flurrys, one presumes, give the full benefit of all the actions it contains.
• One (or, evidently, more) Dash actions may be placed in a flurry. This implies that the flurry contains the movement of the dash.
• Dash movement is measured "per tick".
• The above indicates that a flurry could contain both a Dash and an Attack.
• It is conceivable that someone would use such a flurry to close the distance to their opponent and attack him with the same action.
• In spite of the possibility of a flurry that mixes both "complete on the tick they start" and "incrementally complete per tick" types of actions being clear ramification of the rules, the rules are silent on how a such a flurry plays out.

- Wordman

Excellent summation. To add to it, the solution which we are currently using in TrialBySchmendrickRulings/MovementInFlurries/SnakeVsWingedSerpent is that the attacks are resolved on the first tick it is possible to resolve them, if it remains possible. This solution is working due to simplicity. - IanPrice

Why not post on the WW forums? Neph did create the flurry rules, and he's commented on them in the past.
--DarkWolff

I'll so so. That place makes me feel so... dirty. -- Wordman

Posted the bullet summary above. We'll see what happens. -- Wordman

A question: Can one choose to dash for only one tick? Is it possible to create a speed 1 Dash effect, that is repeatable? My gut thought has always been that if you can't legally declare an action (such as an attack when out of range), you can't do it. Thus, in this case, he'd have to Dash within range, and then declare the flurry. If he needed to keep dashing to stay in range, then dashing would also have to be part of the flurry. The thinking is that allowing an attack to occur after the initial tick of the flurry causes an 'imbalance' in the attack speeds - for example, if you need 2 ticks of dash to close range, in the system I just described, that'd be 2 ticks of dashing, then a speed 5 flurry, meaning you act again on tick 7 (or is it 8?). In the case where you can initially declare the flurry, close the distance, and attack, you declare the flurry, dash for two ticks, attack, and can act again on 5 (or is it 6?). In the latter case, you can act again much more quickly. This concerns a crunch-demon such as me greatly, as you can now move and attack nearly simultaneously, and move away again, all in the same flurry. Especially if you Have a flurry of (Dash, Attack(s), Dash). Sure, you're paying multi-action penalties, but at the same speed 5, you get to close by 20 yards, attack, and run away 20 yards, all in the same flurry. Very very odd. -- GreenLantern

Is not the whole point of using a flurry and accepting the multi-action penalties to get many things done at once? I do see that there should be some kind of limit, though. It is a sticky question. I think that Dash should be construed as working like Move, simply altering the per-tick movement, but unlike move it is performed as an action so simultaneously doing anything initiates a Flurry. Your suggestion that the flurry should be initiated on a later tick of the dash when it could be legal might be the best course of ruling suggested so far. - IanPrice

Bear in mind you are also accumulating multple DV penalties as well. If I understand it correctly, while Speed in a flurry operates on a "high-water mark" type of system, DV penalties for each action stack. - Wordman

This is also true - but there should be a simple limit to how fast someone can run without magic. - IanPrice

This implies that the flurry contains the movement of the dash. This statement is the source of your confusion; nothing implies this. Dash alters your movement rate; that is, while you suffer from its DV penalty you get to go faster. You aren't actually moving for the entire time you use the Dash action. The rules aren't silent on this; Extra Actions charms are Instant, so it must be that flurries are restricted to instants as well. (The Snake flurry is particularly relevant here.) I find it utterly baffling that you seem incapable of drawing conclusions from the portion of the text that makes useful and specific statements about timing. - willows

"This statement is the source of your confusion; nothing implies this." - If Dash could not be part of a flurry, and thus the movement of the Dash could not be contained in the flurry, why doesn't Dash (like Guard and Aim!) say "this action cannot be part of a flurry?" I find it baffling that you spend the time insulting me instead of more fully explaining yourself in the first place. It's not helpful. Wordman and I have both specifically referenced and quoted the passages of the rules which state what we are talking about. You have made vague references to your interpretations, with the bold claim that any other interpretation baffles you. - IanPrice

In particular, willows, which "portion of the text that makes useful and specific statements about timing", specifically, are you talking about? And also, from where in the text do you draw the conclusion that "you aren't actually moving for the entire time you use the Dash action" since the rules list the movement generated by the dash "per tick"? I'm willing to listen to concrete arguments based on what the rules actually say, begging to actually, but so far you haven't made any. -- Wordman

Specifically, Charm text. Notice that I pointed out Extra Actions above? You see that Striking Serpent Speed permits the character to take a magical flurry which contains actions other than attacks, and is Instant in duration. This duration is impossible if Dash, which may be included in flurries, is non-instant. I also presume that an interpretation that doesn't require me to conclude that the book's text is wrong is more likely to be the designer's intended conclusion. Thus Dash must be instant. - willows

But, by saying that "Dash must be an instant", you really do seem to be "concluding that the book's text is wrong", because the text pretty clearly seems to work "per tick". Ignoring flurries for a second, how do you interpret a Dash action, given that it lists speed "per tick"? Do you get one tick of dash movement rate, then wait around for Speed 3? Do you get three ticks, each at the dash movement rate? To you get three "ticks" or movement rate, but all at once in an instant? From comments before (particularly that dash just "alters your movement rate"), I kind of suspect that you treat Dash as if it sort of puts you in this "state" where your Move actions move you further, at the cost of DV and parry ability. Since the rules clearly mention "a character can either move or dash on the same tick, but not both" and that "unlike a basic move, dashing is not reflexive", that seems not to be what the text says (even though it makes a great deal of sense to me). Whatever your choice is what are you using to make it? In other words, I can think of a hundred ways that it could work and a few that I think it should work, but this page is more about figuring what the vanilla interpretation is. -- Wordman

I also maintain that the magic of charms cannot be construed to imply or explicitly state anything about how it normally works. If the magic of Striking Serpent Speed lets you move 30 yards instantly, that doesn't mean you could do that without magic. - IanPrice

Ian - thank you for the above compliment. It is well appreciated. Going forward, then, I wonder - is it best to note that the Dash action, by its nature, changes the rate at which you move during a move action? However, due to the additional 'attention' paid to running (it is a non-rolled dice action), it must be part of a flurry if you wish to move-fast and attack in the same time frame. My belief is that a single non-rolled dice action of dash has a lasting duration of up to 3 ticks. Thus, what you really want is to declare a dash, deal with the 3 speed latency. On the next action, you'd declare the flurry, as you're then in-range, and able to declare it. On 'tick 0' of the flurry, your attacks would happen, and you'd begin the 5-tick cooldown. It would be nice if you could declare a dash of less than speed 3, but that seems to be not possible in the current rules. Just my thoughts. -- GreenLantern

My thoughts simply run: "if it's not possible in the current rules, then a ruling must be made for how it would be done." The impossibility or clumsy working of such a simple action as running then attacking cannot be let be. Dashing should not be excluded from Flurries. 1e handled this easily. Surely 2e could, if only we didn't have this hang-up about Speed and resolution of attacks.

I also remain uncomfortable with the "cooldown" nature of interpreting Speed of actions, because it is conceptually incongruous. How quickly an action is resolved is determined by the Speed of the action before it, under the current system. Especially the first action of combat, which resolves based on your "join battle" action. This all seems very backwards to me. I wonder if there is a way to construe the rules to read that actions should be resolved at the end of their Speed, then new actions declared? If not, I may have to create house-rules for such, and see if my group will agree to them when we switch over. - IanPrice

Honestly, Ian, I'd say that ruling that actions occur at the end of their speed is a far more elegant, and systematic, approach. Especially given the way sorcery works, as it already has this. If you've got willing players, I'd be interested in hearing how it works out. The issue is that you've got to declare then, and wait a while so the other guy can declare - then yours resolves, then his resolves. In a way, it represents a lot of how real combat works. Interesting, but possibly very weird. -- GL

My ST has also suggested another alternate method, for more cinematic gameplay: declare your action at the tick you can act, and it can go off any time during the Speed of that action when it would be valid. However, actions which don't specifically allow you to abort to another action can't be changed at all until their Speed is up, though you could choose not to go through with them at all. I will, in fact, be testing out the "actions resolve at the end of their speed" system with another game, though, and I'll let you know how it works out - IanPrice

I don't care about the vitriol spewed here, nor do I care for it. Play nice people. I also dislike the "end" idea, and my proposition (Houserule 8) reflects this. I do not submit my preference for disection. It is a preference, folks, much like a lot of what you all have discussed. -Suzume

I'm finally getting around to reading 2e mechanics, so I thought I'd put on my thinking cap and try to add my 0.02$. It seems as though the text pretty strongly indicates Interpretation 1. Dashing changes movement rate and doesn't provide instant movement beyond the normal (increased) amount for that turn. If you want additional instant movement to close distance with an opponent before you attack, flurry a jump action before your attacks; that's what it's there for. The visual of the anime hero motion-line jumping forward into an enemy while screaming attack names seems to be why these rules are set up the way they are. Er, well, that's what I got out of them at least.

I'm reading the relevant rules here as indicating Interpretation 1 with the 'unanswered' questions having following answers:

• Multiple dashes could be put into a single flurry, but you'd get no advantage from doing so.
• Increased speed from the dash action does contiue for the entire flurry, and moving at least the minimum distance of the dash per tick is mandatory until next action.
• You may not take a normal move action instead of the dash movement provided. But since the minimum movement is pretty slow, this is not a huge deal.

Dashing in a flurry allows you to control distance by greatly improving your basic movement rate; jumping is used to either quickly close with an opponent (if flurried in before the attacks), or leap away after an attack to try to keep distance. An opponent who flurries in a dash and jump on most actions will have a significant melee combat advantage over someone who does not, as the movement differential can be used to run in, attack, and get back out of melee range until their next action rolls around. This has the following corrolaries:

• Assuming approximately similar base mobility, an opponent who spends flurry actions to increase mobility will force the opponent to respond in some way, either also by increasing mobility or by using the Aim action. Each of these options has tactical advantages and disadvantages, and both look pretty cool.
• The althletic charms which grant jumps as movement actions are really strong since they allow jumps to be taken with Extra Action and Simple charms, greatly increasing their range.
• Lightning speed is also extremely powerful, as it gives increased movement similar to, or greatly exceeding (when paired with an excellency) a dash, forcing similar responses from the opponent.

Just a few random thoughts I had after reading this discussion and the 2e core rules. ~Capric

Question: do you have any thoughts about the core question of this page, ie, "can you move for several ticks of your flurry's speed, THEN resolve the attacks in the flurry?" You haven't said anything about this specifically. - IanPrice

No, I don't think you can. Reasoning: when your tick to act comes up, the rules say you must take an action. Waiting itself is an action (Guard & Aim). Why would they include interruptible actions which do nothing except pass the time and allow you basic reflexive movement if they intended the actual resolution tick of *any* action to take place at a variable time within its speed?

Furthermore, the text under Step Two: Actions (pg 141) reads: "Once a character takes her first action in combat, she must wait a umber of ticks equal to the Speed rating of her action before she acts again." Thus, Speed is a measure of the number of ticks after an action is taken the character must wait before acting again. I assert that that 'taking an action' means rolling or otherwise resolving it, although the text does not explicitly say this. However, with this assertation it follows that any and all actions having a speed take place and are resolved on a single tick, which is then followed by a delay as measured by the speed of that action. Once this delay is over, the character must act again.

Hehe, I guess I got too interested thinking about how damn awesome Monkey Leap Technique was and forgot about what was being argued... ~Capric