Discussions/CMoS

Ok. This posts the primary points made on this Charm, starting with Rebecca's. Its aimed at preventing this being discussed again and again, not rehashing what has already been said! ^_^

Rebecca's ruling is that you get two extra actions in the turn that you activate CMoS.

Two Extra Actions in Turn Activated

Rebecca

Thus_Spake_Zaraborgstrom/CharcoalMarchOfSpiders

David_

If a character invokes Snake Form on his initiative, do characters who attempt to attack him suffer the dice-pool penalty imposed by the Charm? Do all characters who attack the martial artist in that turn suffer this penalty, or only those who attack him on or after his initiative (that is, as or after Snake Form is activated)? Or does the martial artist not gain any benefit from his Form Charm until the next turn?

In my opinion, the effects of long-duration Simple Charms apply the moment that they are invoked. Thus a Solar invoking Flow Like Blood may not dodge attacks directed at him before his initiative, but attacks leveled at him on or after his initiative (and the invocation of Flow Like Blood) will be met with a full-pool dodge attempt, thanks to the effects of Flow Like Blood. Similarly, in the example above, the only attackers who would suffer the penalties from Snake Form would be those who attack the martial artist on or after his initiative.

It gets a little tricky with persistent Simple Charms that grant multiple actions, like Charcoal March of Spiders Form. A character using CMoSForm may take three fully independent actions every turn. Well, every character, mortal or spirit or Exalt, may take *one* fully independent action every turn, right? So CMoSForm is really giving the character *two* *extra* independent actions, for a total of three per turn, isn't it?

In my opinion, a character gains all the benefits of a scene-long (or, really, any non-instant) Simple Charm as soon as the Charm is activated. If this is the case, then a character invoking CMoSForm would gain all the benefits of the Charm on the initiative that the Charm is activated. The *gain* of CMoSForm (among other things) is two independent actions, added to the character's normal one action. I think the character would be able to perform two independent actions on the same turn as he activated CMoSForm for this reason.

fourwillows

Alternatively, CMoSF is analogous to an Extra Actions effect that happens each turn, except for the unusual property that these actions are independent. So, each turn, it allows you to do more stuff than you normally could, and, *because* you are suddenly able to do more stuff, you get the full benefit of three IA in the initial turn.

Similarly, a Celestial-level Spider Form might allow you to repeat the action you take on your turn three times, as long as you benefit from no other Extra Actions effects.

This is the reading that allows three actions on the initial turn, in accord with other Forms, which all provide their full benefits instantly.

ikselam

When you activate Flow Like Blood, do you not get its benefits until next turn? When you activate MA form Charms, do you not get their benefits until next turn? When you activate ANY Simple Charm with a persistent effect, do you not get its benefit until next turn?

> HappyHappyJoyJoy > Not always. Here is an Example: On the turn that you activate Snake Form do you get the initiative benefit? No. On the turn that you active Mantis Form, can you abort to the cascading parry the form allows? No, because you have already used your action. This is pretty much the same situation as with CMoSF not granting you the ability top take the three action option on the turn of activation because you already opted to take the one action alternative by activating the Charm - which at the time was your only choice.

> BrokenShade > In HHJJ's examples, its not that the advantages aren't there, just that you can't take advantage of them. Which is what he is trying to say for CMoS

bobthepariah

As others have stated, when you start using a charm, it starts working right away. So, when you use CMoS, the first action you gain in using CMoS is the activation of CMoS. I find that idea kind of neat. In essence, when the charm is already in use when you begin to activate it. Cool, seeing as the Sids are fate manipulating ninja.

Only One Action in Turn Activated

BrokenShade

Despite what Rebecca says I believe she successfully wrote the Charm the way she intended)! ^_^ I'll tell you why ...

In the first turn, at the start of the turn, do you have CMoS up already? No. So you actually enter your normal turn, and get to the point where you take your Initiative action before CMoS is activated. This has two implications:

• Firstly by definition, if you were to get two additional actions in the turn you activate CMoS, your three actions for the turn would NOT be fully independent. The extra actions are DEPENDANT on the first action, which was putting up CMoS, as they would not have existed without that first action. That is what dependent means, which is the opposite of independent.

• Secondly, because you have already taken an initiative action when CMoS becomes operative in the first turn, if you were to get two extra actions they are not concurrent with that first action and cannot be interwoven with that action. Which is counter to the way independent actions are described to work.

So I propose that by the book you do not get two extra actions in the first turn.

Now could the book be interpreted to say that you get the CMoS action PLUS three extra actions? No, because then you get four actions in a turn which is counter to what CMoS allows ... it explicitly allows for THREE fully independent actions in any round, not four.

So, CMoS does not give you any extra actions in the turn it is activated. ^_^ BrokenShade

> bobthepariah > ALL actions gained by CMoS, on any round, are dependant on the fact that CMoS is used

You didn't get the point. In any turn, the CMoS actions taken are not dependent on EACH OTHER. This is clearly not the case in the activation turn if you allow two extra actions, as two of the actions THAT TURN are dependant on the third action that turn.

> bobthepariah > The three actions are all concurrent, and can be interwoven, say, by using CMoS, Water Spider Bite and Grandmother Spider Mastery together.

Nope. No part of Water Spider Bite or Grandmother Spider Mastery happens BEFORE CMoS. That is what interwoven means, part before and part after.

HappyHappyJoyJoy

I consider these independent actions much like initiative. If you had a Simple, Scene-duration Charm that boosted Initiative, you wouldn't get any benefit from it until the next turn, so it should be the same with this effect.

For example, you start the turn with one action available. You use it to activate CMoSF. You're done. By utilizing the normal action (which was your only option at this point), you have "opted" not to use the three actions of CMoSF (not that you had any choice at the time you took your action).

Next action you have the choice to take one action or to utilize the three action option provided by CMoSF. Typically, you'll do the latter.

Me Again

sesshomaru

Another similar example, Writhing Blood Chain Technique is a simple charm. You do not gain its extra actions on the turn it is activated. You spend the turn growing your blood chains. CMoS is a simple charm that requires you to likewise "grow" your independent actions. That's always been my interpretation at any rate.

Think of how PAoC and CMoS interact. If you have CMoS active, you can't activate PAoC. Why? Because you can't reap the benefits of PAoC before it is activated. It is the same way with CMoS. You use your action for the turn to activate CMoS and don't have the option of accessing the three independent actions beforehand. Of course there are some who believe that you can access PAoC while CMoS is up...

Sunny_Delight

I am in agreement that you do not gain, what some people consider, the "remaining 2ia". It's a simple charm, it took up your entire turn to activate it. Deal with it however you want, but that is canon.

Michael_Dracon

You know, I've been thinking about the '2 actions remain' thing. Let's look at it in slow motion:

Turn 1:

1) activate CMoS Form\\ 2) get the effects of the charm\\ 3) this being: get 3 independant actions (as said by Rebecca, in the same turn)\\ 4) fill in action #1\\ 5) fill in action #2\\ 6) fill in action #3

Turn 2:

7) fill in action #1\\ 8) fill in action #2\\ 9) fill in action #3

You've already activated CMoS Form, the effect of which is 3 independant actions. How can one of those actions be the activation of the Charm if the activation is already done? Or in other words, how can step 4 be the same as step 1? See the paradox (no pun intended) in there?

Now if it said 'get 2 extra independant actions' I'd agree, cause then you'll get the above without step 4.

House Rule

Crowned_Sun

Personally, I agree with you. Much like avoidance kata, I'd rather just house rule it and have it make /sense to me/. As opposed to keep it the way it is and just deal with the weirdness. I love Rebecca to death (in a platonic great-writer kind of way), but she can overcomplicate at times:)