Deaks/SolarAthletics

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Golden Avatar Apotheosis 

Cost: 20 motes, 1 willpower
Minimums: Athletics 6, Essence 6
Type: Simple (Speed 6)
Keywords: Combo-OK, Obvious, Shaping
Duration: One Scene
Prerequisite Charms: Increasing Strength Exercise, Any two Athletics Excellencies

The Lawgiver suffuses her body with Solar Essence affecting a dramatic transformation into a muscular, gold-skinned, and four-armed avatar of the Unconquered Sun. She becomes a living expression of the athletic perfection of the Unconquered Sun as her Strength and Dexterity are each increased by six dots (similar to the effects of Increasing Strength Exercise).

Comments

Browsing this wiki and the White Wolf Exalted forum indicates that the transformation effect of Golden Avatar Apotheosis isn't exactly novel. I'm planning to increase the activation cost in a forthcoming revision and include a Stamina increase as well. I think this will work reasonably well with my new concept for a permanent SolarResistance Charm that improves Golden Avatar Apotheosis. - Deaks

Don't know is an increase in cont is necessary...MAYBE if it icreases stamina as well. Also, The increase should be Permanent essence instead of 6. Scaling is alwas more elegant then non scaling on this level. Welcome BTW -Azurelight

Twice today you've dropped by to help me out (once on the WW forums), thanks! The reason I wanted to buff to a static value is that I didn't want to detract any further from other existing Charms such as Increasing Strength Excercise. Is it your opinion that at Essence 6 and above that a Charm such as this should be allowed to completely overshadow its prerequisite charm? I'd happily allow the Charm to scale naturally with permanent Essence if it seems acceptable.
With respect to the cost, I wanted to shoot for a cost that was similar to using Increasing Strength Exercise (and the imaginary Charms Increasing Dexterity Excercise and Increasing Stamina Excercise) but that came with additional benefits including resemblance of a four-armed Solar godling, reduction in Willpower costs as compared to invoking multiple such Charms, and the time savings of combining what could otherwise be multiple Simple Charm invocations into a single Simple Charm invocation. Going along with the idiom that the Solar Charms presented in the Second Edition Core are very efficient and have been refined over millenia I didn't want to overstep and give too large of a mote discount. With that in mind, does this change your impression of whether or not a cost increase is necessary if a Stamina effect is added? - Deaks

Hmm, If I were to make charms like this, I would prpbably look for ways to enhance the earlier effects rather then replace them. As IanPrice pointed out to me, Higher essence generall means more efficient....exactly how to do that is a wee bit more tricky -Azurelight

Fair enough, how about something like this (fair warning: it sounds somewhat like a kludge to me, but its all that I have been able to come up with so far). During the action in which this Charm is invoked, the character may use Increasing Strength Exercise as if it was Supplemental to augment the transformation. When used in this way, Increasing Strength Exercise does not count as a Charm use and has an altered cost per dot (TBD), additionally it provides an equivalent number of bonus dots to both Dexterity and Stamina. Thus, the existing charm is used and its effect is changed slightly for the desired effect. Effectively this Charm acts as a free combo which is very specific and only lasts for a single action. - Deaks

Since I was mentioned, I'll weigh in here. Let's imagine that the template for the prerequisite charm is Increasing (Physical Attribute) Excercise. It allows you to raise the attribute by up to Essence, at 3m/dot, and prevents you from benefitting from a greater increase by combining it with other charms. It also counts as a dice bonus from charms if any other effect would be involved (such as using an Athletics Excellency on a Feat of Strength, or a Melee Excellency on an attack roll).

  • Cost of +6 to one attribute: 18m
  • Cost for two: 36m
  • Cost for all three: 54m

A point of Willpower is about equal to 2 or 3 motes in worth, and is also more difficult to earn back. Using a Willpower cost on a higher-rank charm to consolidate costs has precedent in a few trees, such as Melee's Iron Whirlwind Attack. At Essence 2, it consolidates the (3*3=9)m cost of Peony Blossom Attack for 7 attacks into its own flat 5m1w. That is an increase from Melee 3 to Melee 5. At Essence 4, 2 more attacks are added to the maximum of both of those charms by Invincible Fury of the Dawn. This makes IWA a discount from (7*3=21)m to the same flat 5m1w. All this is pre-Essence 5. This is kids' stuff to the Solars. The only example of Essence 6 we have so far is Protection of Celestial Bliss. To extrapolate...

  • Increasing (Physical Attribute) Excercise is Athletics 3, Essence 2 - equivalent to Peony Blossom Attack.
  • An Ath 5, Ess 2 charm could thus, theoretically, do the same increase for a flat cost.
  • An Ess 4 charm could theoretically increase the maximum of the attribute boost for both preceeding charms, perhaps even of all the attributes.
  • An Ess 6 charm could do things like make the attribute increase persistent as long as Essence is committed, at a lower rate than the original. It could eliminate the incompatibility with other charms by making the increase count as a boost to the natural attribute. In short, it can transcend the limits of normal charms because it's so bloody unlikely to be seen in a normal Exalted campaign, where the default assumption is that there are a lot of threats to all of Creation to be dealt with before it would be POSSIBLE to live the 100 years necessary to reach that kind of enlightenment without powerful artifacts or divine intervention. And getting your god's attention is difficult even by Exalted standards, due to the Games of Divinity.

In short, charms which provide unscaling bonuses are not good. Charms which build on previous, scaled bonuses are quite workable, and easier than inventing a new scale. For this charm, I think you ought to keep the basic function. Make the attribute bonuses = Essence, and make the arms do something. Reduce mutli-action penalties, provide magical flurrying, or something. Maybe even independent actions, though even at Essence 6 that's pretty much worth a charm of its own. Make them do more than just let you hold four hands worth of stuff. - IanPrice, just a guy with opinions.

I appreciate the feedback and suggestions on Charm progression mechanics is greatly appreciated. I hadn't originally intended the arms to provide any direct benefit beyond having multiple appendages (reduced multiple-action penalties were suggested when a Charm featuring a similar transformation was discussed on the WW Exalted forum). I would like to take this opportunity, to present some of the concepts that I have in mind for this type of Charm.

  • Concept
    • Many First Age Solars wore customized Celestial Battle Armor or Warstriders while others chose to wear the likeness of The Unconquered Sun into battle.
  • Overview
    • A single (Essence > 5) Simple Charm which affects the transformation with multiple permanent Charms that add elements to the transformation related to the Ability these secondary Charms are based on. This set of Charms may be better served as Solar-only and high Essence additions to the Solar Hero MA tree as it may start feeling like a Solar-level martial arts progression in how it draws upon a single theme across various Abilities'
  • Possible Effects
    • Increasing (Physical Attribute) Exercise effect for all physical attributes
      • Athletics effect: +(Essence) dots to each physical attribute
    • Alter character height to large proportions, maybe even to Warstrider sizes
      • Height / Athletics or maybe Presence effect: Along with increased Strength, this could make wielding even Warstrider-sized weaponry an option; perhaps as a Presence-effect this form provides bonuses for attempts to inspire or intimidate
    • Golden orichalcum skin could provide enhancements to natural soak (stacks with armor like Stamina-based soak)
      • Stamina / Resistance effect: Soak Lethal damage with full Stamina; soak Aggravated damage with permanent Essence; provide Hardness for Lethal and Bashing damage equal to permament Essence
    • Shape the character into a four-armed humanoid
      • Athletics? effect: bonus to maximum mundane Rate by wielding multiple weapons; perhaps extend Steel Devil Melee to multiple off-hand weapons; suggestions include (offensive) reducing attack pool penalties due to multiple actions, (defensive) increasing PDV, applying external penalties to attackers, reducing penalties imposed on Parry DV
  • Progression Possibilities
    • Permanent Charms enhance the base Simple Charm with added capabilities which can be optionally activated as part of the action
    • Incorporate all effects into a single Charm by tuning minimums and cost
    • Create or retro-fit into a Charm tree -- Solar MA could be a decent match, maybe even augmenting the Solar Hero style, or a tree drawing from various Abilities (which seems kind of odd and doesn't have much 2e canon precedent)

I thought writing down some of the ideas would help with the collaboration effort. - Deaks, who is enjoying the feedback -- please keep it coming

I would just like to point out that RSB has said tha when she designs charms, she thinks 1WP~10 motes, something she pcked up frpm GCG -Azurelight

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