Discussions/AreTheGodsEvil

(Note: This was a branch off from Discussion/YoziWinning, which became a morality argument. Feel free to join in on either side.)

Personally I think one of the easiest ways the Yozi's could potentially turn exalts against the incarna is to just tell them the truth. Basically.. the whole celestial body is a bunch of crackheads who wanted to play with daddy's toys, but weren't strong enough to handle them, and have thus gotten hopelessly addicted, and the whole world has basically gone downhill since then. Things might not have been quite so good for -humans- when the Yozi's were in charge.. but everything was in order and such I imagine, you probably wouldn't have any gods getting out of line and things would be more or less proceeding as planned... you could probably convince a large amount that it would be best if things were set right again. Of course, that was in the past, and true.. these days, they're probably a wee bit angry with the takeover thing, and would go on a mass rampage.. but they obviously won't tell you that bit. FluffySquirrel

Can I start screaming now? You've got cause and effect screwed up, FluffySquirrel. The Gods didn't overthrow the Yozi in order to get the Games. On the contrary, they started playing the games because they promised the Exalted control of Creation, and didn't have much else to do in Yu Shan. Only then did they get addicted, and it's not an overwhelming thing (for example, the Autochthonians specifies that it only really takes Gaia yelling at them for them to return to Creation full-time). There is no evidence to suggest that things were good for anyone but the Primordials with the Primordials in charge. (And, for that matter, even certain Primordials got shafted by the Zeroth Age.) Gods, humans, weaker Primordials... it was a Darwinian nightmare, from all examples given to date. I don't know where this "The gods wanted their creators' stuff" crap came from. - FrivYeti

Friv.. you might want to get Games of Divinity if you don't have it, because.. yeah, that's exactly what it says.. The primordials created everything, including all the gods to maintain creation, while they.. and I'll quote from now on... "they played among themselves the Games of Divinity, which are not for men to know or understand. In time, the gods became discontent with their lot as keepers of the world, tenders of time and the heavens and churls of the Primordials. They said to one another, "Let us overthrow the Primordials and take their place, and then, we will take our leisure and play the Games of Divinity." "

So there's my reasoning.. and after the war.. the incarna.. basically having been saddled with running creation for so long, didn't want too anymore, so let the exalted take care of it. As I quite clearly said though, the world before the overthrow of the primordials might not have been great for humanity.. but THEY created it, and I'd say it was fairly injust of the gods to overthrow them just because they were jealous.. wouldn't you? And sure, that's painted it fairly badly against the incarna.. they are certainly good in many ways.. but.. that's what the primordials would tell people no doubt, and it's the truth. FluffySquirrel

I do have Games Of Divinity, and that quote sounds to me more like general discontent than a lust for toys. The word 'churls' is fairly loaded, for example. I consider that the discontent with their current lot is a lot more important than the Games on the "reasons to rebel list". Here are some counter-quotes from the same history: "The lesser gods and spirits of Earth itself were largely content to watch sleepily over that which was their demense, now secure against the depredations of lustful or whimsical Primordials." "After the war, the Celestial Incarna were not eager to meddle in the affairs of the world. They had been burdened by its administration for countless epochs and had no desire to partake further in its governance." "The Celestial Order first began to seriously decay when the Solar Exalted were murdered."

I don't want to sound like the Yozi can't twist words to make it sound like the Primordials were in the right, but it's not the truth. It's a strategem to take, but calling it the truth IS twisting it badly. It wasn't injust to overthrow them. It was a bad place for everybody. The gods were not jealous. Would you say that the slave revolts in Haiti in the 1700s were unjust? The slaves wanted what their masters had - freedom and property. It's the same thing. - FrivYeti

I'll be honest.. I'm confused, cause you quoted the very bit I was on about.. never mind the fact that the first quote comes right out and say they want their leisure and to play the games of divinity, the one you mentioned says that after they overthrew the primordials, they basically just stopped doing their rightful roles of making creation run properly, and are pretty much just playing the games (except the UCS, who apparently took a little more interest until they made him mad).. and would I consider it unjust if the slaves overthrew their masters and basically just made other people take their jobs while they watched over the slaves instead?.. yeah.. it might be fitting perhaps, but they're doing the same thing the others were doing. Truth of the matter is though, yes, there's not much information about before the first age.. but I don't necessarily think it's bad just because it was the primordials. FluffySquirrel

As I said, I think you're putting emphasis in the wrong places. Imagine a real slave revolt. Yes, one of the things the slaves are going to talk about taking their masters places. They say, "Let's take over, and then we can relax instead of working all the time. Yay!" It's part and parcel of the revolution, the desire to become the equals of your former masters. The quote says that they "sleepily over that which was their demense". The keywords are both 'sleepily' and 'watch'. The gods are still working, they're just doing it at in a relaxed manner. No need to wake up unless there's trouble. Furthermore, the gods aren't FORCING the Exalted to take over anything - this is an important point. Control of Creation was the REWARD given to them. The Exalted get to decide how to run the world, and because they weren't forced to do that and only that, they can balance it proper-like with their free time (and everything we know about the First Age itself says the Exalted had a lot of free time). It'll be a job, not a burden. - FrivYeti

Seeing as it's got it's own topic now, let's stop all the indentation, it's starting to creep over too much ^^ As for your example of the slave revolt... if that's what they actually did.. then I'd judge them no better the original slavers.. people need to work to make things better, not just fight to be on top. In your example, they're not becoming equals of the masters, they're becoming superiors. And if taking care of creation was such a wonderful gift.. why did the gods get so sick of it anyway? ^^ To consider the page title though, no.. I don't think the Incarna (as I presume your referred to with gods) are evil.. but neither are the Primordials.. or the Fae, or virtually most people in the exalted setting, which is what I like about it.. everything's shades of grey.. an evil just depends which faction you ask. FluffySquirrel

While the Primordials might not have been evil (I would say they were, worse then what the gods have since become, though not by much) the Yozi they have become cirtainly are. Likewise, the Malfeans are evil - their contenued existance might be anathemical to them, but that doesn't make their desires and actions less evil. I so while I would say the Gods are indead evil, their a lesser (but still quite) evil.

- Dasmen

Makes sense. My two replies to your comments: (1) There's a difference between wanting to relax and wanting to oppress. The fact that Gaia remains a valued member of the Celestial Incarna (and that Autochthon would have if he hadn't been paranoid about the Solars (note that it was the Solars, not the gods, that drove him to flee), means that the gods weren't particularly seeking to oppress their old masters. They were seeking equality, not superiority. As far as Creation not being a prize - if I have to spend sixteen hours a day swimming, every day, for a year, I will never want to swim again. Multiply that by countless epochs to get the gods' perspective. I'm not saying that the gods are perfect; they made mistakes too. But they're far closer to heroic than villainous. I agree that very few beings in Exalted are evil, including most Fair Folk. However, I would argue that the Yozi and Malfeans, at least now, are unequivocably evil. - FrivYeti

I would havve argue against that, really. The Gods seem to be more interested in rules and pertecting their little crackhouse then anything. Remember, the Sol took human sacrifices... And while Autochthon found the Solars behavor the straw that broke the camals back, it was made clear time and again that if he hadn't fled the gods would have sooner or latter turned on him. Gaia was spared such a fear becauses A: She didn't fight in the war against the Primordals, so she's managed to paint herself as a nonthreatining noncombatent, and B: She's Luna's fucktoy(and vicaversa, but that's not pertinent to this discusstion). - Dasmen

From my perspective - not the Infernals' (shameless plug alert) - it doesn't matter who created this and property rights that. Under whom does humanity fare best? The Prmordials were crazy monsters. Now, granted, that's through a filter or four thousand years of propaganda. So who really knows? But canonically overthrowing the bastards was most definitely the right thing to do. I'd say the same thing about the other Usurpation. - MUrielw