Difference between revisions of "GregLink/EffortlessMasterStyleOldComments"

Latest revision as of 01:16, 6 April 2010

This page chronicles old comments made about the MartialArts/EffortlessMasterStyle.

Finished Wiki-fying, and tightened things up a bit. While not effective on its own, the Effortless Master Style makes sense for many Sensei and other Martial Arts masters, enhancing their already potent abilities.

Generally these look good and balanced, and I like them. I also like the basic concept. The only Charms I would be concerned about are Enduring Master's Ignorance and Effortless Expenditure of Essence. The first I have concerns about simply because it seems to heavily trample the Lunar schtick - currently, only Lunars get autohealing without committed Essence, and this seems to be a superior Charm in every way but Essence requirement to Wood Dragon Form. Most grievous, it appears to allow aggravated damage healing without Essence expenditure, and that really concerns me. Though it wouldn't make much practical difference, I'd be much more comfortable if it simply reduced the attacker's damage successes by one, as though the MAist were made from starmetal or something.

Effortless Expenditure of Essence makes me a little twitchy on its own - Willpower becomes the vital resource of high-Essence combat, and I'm not sure it's wise to cheapen so many costs so thoroughly - but what really begins to worry me is when you combine EEoE with Prepared Master's Effortless Action. Spend Willpower out of the PMEA pool, refresh it to your standard pool? Seems rather counter to the limiting factor you placed on PMEA to keep it in check, doesn't it? - Hapushet

Hapushet - You really hit the nail on the head in the first paragraph. The Enduring Master's Ignorance charm really is nothing more than a "Oh, and you're wearing Starmetal, by the way" charm. I color text-ed it up, and tried to give it some interesting characteristics, like that you can be knocked incap mid-round and thus not get to heal back up, so you're effectively reliant on not getting too low in the health level chain. For Sidereals, that can be a problem, and I thought it more interesting than just "Oh, like Starmetal". As for the Agg, I've got the same concern, but since Starmetal does it so simply, and that's really what I'm narfing, I didn't mind it too much. Still, I'd be interested if others felt the same way Hapushet does. If my theory of "It's just like starmetal, and the color text happening to imply that you're healing agg isn't really important" isn't solid, I can always change it. Heck, I might change it anyway - Agg is something one doesn't mess with. But then again, I tend not to change things, so I'd need some prodding.

As for the second paragraph, again, I agree. I've been struggling with high-end charms for the tree, as it's very easy to make them overpowered, or underuseful. For a simple fix, would it be poor form to simply point out that Effortless Expenditure of Effort (the "if you spend X willpower" one) doesn't kick in based off of the Prepared Master's pool? Or is that nowhere near the level of fix required? - GregLink, unable to fully grasp his own flaws.

Oh, and one more thing, while I'm here. In another theory, you note that "Willpower becomes the vital resource of high-Essence combat". Having said that, and in the theory that there are a number of people who can make their own charms, it would seem reasonable that high-Essence characters are going to be making some serious Willpower-Regaining charms. Take things like Willpower Enhancing Spirit, things like Willpower-draining effects (I'm sure the Abyssals have one), and recognize that those are Ess 3 variants of such things. By Essence 5 and 6, there have got to be some serious Willpower boosters out there. I wouldn't be surprised to see a large number of them in the Lore and Endurance trees, actually, where these ancient guys are monsters of "I can burn 2 WP per round for the rest of the scene without touching my pool" and "Any time I take a dice action, I gain 1 WP!". Sure, in the canonical printed charms, we don't see this as much, but as you said - Willpower is the domain of High-essence combat - it's not as needed, nor as useful, at low Essence, where you're still figuring out how to pay for your Golden Essence Block, not your stacked super-perfect multi-action undodgeable combo. Having said that, I'm still not sure what I've got is Kosher, but to think that by Essence 5, you don't have characters developing purely Willpower boosting charms is a bit shortsighted. And given that Siddies can only make MA charms, Essence 4 and 5 MA charms that helps with WP, so that you're not nearly as far behind in the "all of your students have WP boosters" race seems perfectly sensible. The only question is if they're overly powerful. Anyway, I'll shut up. I think I just put my foot in my mouth, and I like Hapushet's comments, so I'll stop now. - GregLink

I think noting that the Prepared Master pool doesn't trigger the effect of the pinnacle charm is good. I'm not 100% sure it's good enough, though. Some of these charms I wonder a little bit about, just because you decided not to put any kind of cost on them. EEoE especially. Obviously, due to the nature of the style, the cost shouldn't be large, but I think it should be there. I don't think a Martial Arts charm at Essence 5 should eliminate half of all willpower costs permanently, is basically what I'm saying. Maybe if you made it cost something like 5 motes and 2 willpower to activate for a scene? Then, of course, its effect would give you one of those willpower back. I could certainly see making the charm Reflexive and specifically allowign it to be put in a Combo despite its duration.

Also, Chosen Form bothers me. Sidereal forms are excluded, but I can't think of a single Celestial form that is. While I like the idea of allowing the master to assume the form indefinitely, I don't like reducing the cost to only 1 mote. I think the master ought to have to pay the cost of the form he will be using when activating Chosen Form. - IanPrice, but other than those slight tweaks, this is totally wicked, and I must try to get permission to use it...

On EEoE, I do note that it can only give you back one willpower per turn maximum. Seems lovely and balanced to me as it slows down your rate of Willpower use. Of course, it should only deal with the Willpower spent from the characters main pool and no other ones that can be created. Otherwise it can be far too useful for keeping your normal pool topped up, as others have noted.

Now onto Chosen Form, I like it's flavour, but I think the whole point was to make it easier to shift between multiple forms. How about if it halved the cost of the form or was an Instant charm (so the essence was not committed and could be regained through stunting)? -- Somori who is now a little rushed and would love to do a deeper analysis.

First off, let me say thank you to IanPrice, who, after an initial run-in with, I've really enjoyed reading his comments. As for Somori's comments on the form, I think (s)he's right on the money. I think I'd be willing to take a halved cost, rounded down, and still think it was pretty kick-butt. -- GregLink, original author. If anyone wants to archive the old comments, I think the style might be ready for a fresh look by some of the Wiki-Zens

Why thank you. I'm glad that whole getting-off-on-the-wrong-foot thing is over with. I realized that at first, I was tooting my own horn, which is really poor form. Since then, I've switched to simply saying what there is to say, so really, I also have you to thank for calling me on my childishness at first.

As for Chosen Form, I could be satisfied with a halved cost, if you reduce the duration to something like One Scene; or, if you think that's insufficient for training, perhaps Essence in hours. The point for me is that I think being able to wake up in the middle of the night when your Surprise Anticipation Method warns you of the assassin about to stab you and already be automatically in your Form Charm without action or expenditure is really awesome. So, to my mind, if the charm gives you another cost discount, the indefinite duration has to go, because the duration itself is a discount when you're dealing with a long stretch of time.

For flavor reasons, I think that the indefinite duration fits with the idea of the "effortless master" better than a cost reduction, because other charms provide extra essence and such in this style already, but being able to go around in your form all the time takes away an action you would otherwise give up at the beginning of combat. For training, just wear a Hearthstone. Activate one form, train for an hour; oh look, you've regained the motes. Switch to the next one, train for another hour. Celestial forms are usually about 5 motes anyway, so the total expenditure we're talking about here is 6 motes. Even a level 3 Hearthstone gets you that back in an hour, and a master of this caliber ought to have a level 5, if not several Hearthstones. - IanPrice