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| − | = [[Heru]]'s Four Ranks of Artifice = | + | = Heru's Four Ranks of Artifice = |
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| | + | [[Heru]] |
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| | It is an inherent fact of Creation that mortals can never reach the heights of the Terrestrial Exalted, or the Terrestrial Exalted the Celestials. Or anybody ever equal the sheer creative genius of the Solar Exalted. The reason for this is the difficulty in managing and crafting the Essence flows and channels in artifacts. Mortals, due to their inherent nature, are only able to comprehend the most basics of such things. | | It is an inherent fact of Creation that mortals can never reach the heights of the Terrestrial Exalted, or the Terrestrial Exalted the Celestials. Or anybody ever equal the sheer creative genius of the Solar Exalted. The reason for this is the difficulty in managing and crafting the Essence flows and channels in artifacts. Mortals, due to their inherent nature, are only able to comprehend the most basics of such things. |
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| | Upon being Exalted new doors are open, and the wealth of dreams can be made manifested. The Dragon-Blooded can produce artifacts that put to shame mortal devices, yet themselves are put to shame by the powerful artifacts of the Celestial Exalted. Lunar and Sidereal understanding of Essence is deep and mighty, yet even they cannot hope to fathom the more esoteric lessons that come naturally to the Solar Exalted. For the Solar Exalted nothing is beyond their capabilities given time, planning and patience. | | Upon being Exalted new doors are open, and the wealth of dreams can be made manifested. The Dragon-Blooded can produce artifacts that put to shame mortal devices, yet themselves are put to shame by the powerful artifacts of the Celestial Exalted. Lunar and Sidereal understanding of Essence is deep and mighty, yet even they cannot hope to fathom the more esoteric lessons that come naturally to the Solar Exalted. For the Solar Exalted nothing is beyond their capabilities given time, planning and patience. |
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| − | It is known that those levels below one's natural level come easy to the Exalted. For example, the Dragon-Blood are able to craft Mortal-level artifacts as easy as a person breathes. This is why the Solar Exalted have such an easy time of bringing forth the growth of a civilization that they rule, they are able forge technology of Mortal, Terrestrial, and Celestial levels easy and without much preparation. If one looks at the rate of develop in the First Age Solar Deliberative one can see rapid technological growth before it levels out to Solar Level which is hard even for the Solar Exalted. | + | It is known that those levels below one's natural level come easy to the Exalted. For example, the Dragon-Blood are able to craft Mortal-level artifacts as easily as a person breathes. This is why the Solar Exalted have such an easy time of bringing forth the growth of a civilization that they rule, they are able forge technology of Mortal, Terrestrial, and Celestial levels easily and without much preparation. If one looks at the rate of develop in the First Age Solar Deliberative one can see rapid technological growth before it levels out to Solar Level which is hard even for the Solar Exalted. |
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| − | As this relates to Charms, the Dragon-Blooded have Craft Charms that make it very much easier for them to Craft First Rank Magitech. The Lunar and Sidereal Exalted have Craft/Intelligence Charms that allow them to make artifacts of Second and First Circle Magitech easily. The Solar and Abyssal Exalted have the Craft Charms for the Crafting of Third, Second and First Circle Magitechs almost as simple as riding a bike.
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| − | <b><i>Terms</b></i>
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| − | <b>Rank -</b> The broad power level of the artifact. There are four Ranks: Mortal, Terrestrial, Celestial and Solar. Each Rank is divided into seven levels.
| + | As this relates to Charms, the Dragon-Blooded have Craft Charms that make it very much easier for them to Craft First Rank Magitech. The Lunar and Sidereal Exalted have Craft and Intelligence Charms that allow them to make artifacts of Second and First Circle Magitech easily. The Solar and Abyssal Exalted have the Craft Charms for the Crafting of Third, Second and First Circle Magitechs almost as simple as riding a bike. |
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| − | <b>Level -</b> The narrow level of power of an artifact. There are seven Levels: 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and N/A. | + | <b>Theme</b> |
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| − | <b>Level Zero</b> - This is actually the N/A level of the preceding Rank.
| + | The entire point of this document is not to change the rules or the statistics for anything. The entire theme of this based on a fluff concept - that only certain groups can create certain types and basics of technology. This doesn't even mean construct it means design, explain and understand. That said the main point of this will be the creating of an overlay above the current Artifact system that describes what group is the principle group that can understand it and how it operates. |
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| − | <b>Level N/A</b> - This is actually Level Zero of the suceeding Rank.
| + | An example below will best explain this; take two artifacts, the Staff of Growing and the Staff of Fate Singing. Lets say they were both Level 3 Artifacts. The Staff of Growing is Terrestrial while the Staff of Fate Singing is Celestial. Despite both being Level 3, the Terrestrial Exalted can only understand, fathom and replicate the Staff of Growing. The Staff of Fate Singing, being Celestial, can only be understood and replicated by the Celestial Exalted. This can be for various reasons, but for whatever reasons one of the Level 3 is out of the Terrestrials capabilities to make while the other Level 3 is not. |
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| − | <b>Exalted Equipment -</b> This is the level of exceptional equipment that is intrinsic to all Second Rank and above artifacts.
| + | === Zeroeth Rank Artifice - Mortal === |
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| − | <b><i>Exceptional Equipment</b></i>
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| − | Not really a rank of Artifice but such does effect what can be Enchanted. For my purposes I have actually modified this background as given in the Exalted Player's Guide. Below is my changes:
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| − | <b>•</b>Serviceable. Same as listed.
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| − | <b>••</b>Fine. Same as listed.
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| − | <b>•••</b>Exceptional. Same as listed.
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| − | <b>••••</b>Perfect. Same as listed.
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| − | <b>•••••</b> Exalted. All devices created by Second Rank Magitech and above are of this category, for without it the magic
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| − | can not hold. Only Exalted and those with Awakened Essence can actually craft the physical object, and only the Exalted can add the supernatural
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| − | effects that are added on top. Exalted weapons gain a +1 modifer to all statistics and two +2 modifies that can be added to any statistic to
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| − | improve them (no doubling up the +2 modifers). Exalted armor reduces the mobility penalty and fatigue by 2 each and gains three +1s which can be
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| − | used to add to soak or to further reduce (by no more than ana dditonal -1 each) the mobility penalty or fatigue ratings. Exalted equipment will add
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| − | three dice to the relevant dice pool.
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| − | === First Rank Magitech - Mortal === | |
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| | This is the rank that anybody in Creation can produce. Use the description of Thaumaturgical Enchantment described in the Player's Guide for what this can produce. | | This is the rank that anybody in Creation can produce. Use the description of Thaumaturgical Enchantment described in the Player's Guide for what this can produce. |
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| − | === Second Rank Magitech - Terrestrial === | + | === First Rank Artifice - Terrestrial === |
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| | This is the level of produce that the Terrestrial Exalted could build. This is the common tools and equipment in existence, mighty yet not fundamentally that much greater than normal. | | This is the level of produce that the Terrestrial Exalted could build. This is the common tools and equipment in existence, mighty yet not fundamentally that much greater than normal. |
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| − | All artifacts that are listed as being manufactred by the Realm or Lookshy are automatically of this type. The exception to this is the early Shogunate who was able to produce levels 1 and 2 Celestial because of the existence of First Age infrustructure. | + | All artifacts that are listed as being manufactured by the Realm or Lookshy are automatically of this type. The exception to this is the early Shogunate who was able to produce levels 1 and 2 Celestial because of the existence of First Age infrastructure. |
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| − | Like the ranks that follow, the Terrestrial Rank contains five normal levels and one N/A level.
| + | === Second Rank Magitech - Celestial === |
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| − | === Third Rank Magitech - Celestial ===
| + | These are the wonders of the world produced by Sidereals, Lunars, Mountain Folk and Alchemical Exalted. They were once common and so they can be seen a lot in ruins and scraps. In the Second Age they provide a lot of the strength of both the Sidereals and the Lunars. |
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| − | These are the wonders of the world produced by Sidereals, Lunars, Mountain Folk and Alchemical Exalted. They were once common and so they can be seen alot in ruins and scraps. In the Second Age they provide a lot of the strength of both the Sidereals and the Lunars.
| + | === Third Rank Artifice - Solar === |
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| − | Like the other Ranks, this has five normal levels and one N/A level.
| + | The most powerful, world-shaking artifacts within Creation only available to Solars and Abyssals. Even the most basic Solar Rank artifacts are mighty, though very much surpassed in the other levels of Solar Artifice. For the most part the artifacts of this rank are not seen in the fallen Second Age. What is seen, though, is usually massive and more powerful than anything else. The Realm Defense Grid and the Five-Metal Shrike are great examples of high end Third Rank artifacts. |
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| − | === Fourth Rank Magitech - Solar === | + | == Descriptions and Explanations == |
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| − | The most powerful, world-shaking artifacts within Creation only available to Solars and Abyssals. Even Level 1 Fourth Rank artifacts are mighty, though very much surpassed in the other levels of Solar Artifce. For the most part the artifacts of this rank are not seen in the fallen Second Age. What is seen, though, is usually massive and more powerful than anything else. The Realm Defense Grid and the Five-Metal Shrike are great examples of high end Fourth Rank artifacts.
| + | <b><i>Who can Craft What</b></i> |
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| − | As with the preciding three Ranks, this contains five normal levels and one N/A level.
| + | <b>Zeroeth Rank -</b> Mortals |
| − | | + | <b>First Rank -</b> Terrestrials, Dragon-Kings, Ghosts |
| − | == Descriptions and Explanations ==
| + | <b>Second Rank -</b> Lunars, Sidereals, Mountain Folk (with Geas), Alchemicals (standard) |
| | + | <b>Third Rank -</b> Solars, Abyssals, Mountain Folk (before the Great Geas), Alchemicals (city versions) |
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| | <b><i>Crafting Below Your Rank</b></i> | | <b><i>Crafting Below Your Rank</b></i> |
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| | <b><i>Crafting Above Your Rank</b></i> | | <b><i>Crafting Above Your Rank</b></i> |
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| − | Crafting above one's rank is not possible. Each rank signifies more than points on an artifact scale. A Rank symbolized an understanding of Essence flows and the channels that power the item. It represents being able to force Essence to gather and pool itself into the crafted channels of the artifact. It is, in truth, a level of the power that the Exaltation provides to the person. | + | Crafting above one's rank is not possible. Each rank signifies more than points on an artifact scale. A Rank symbolizes an understanding of Essence flows and the channels that power the item. It represents being able to force Essence to gather and pool itself into the crafted channels of the artifact. It is, in truth, a level of the power that the Exaltation provides to the person. |
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| | A Mortal is inherently limited in what they can do with Essence. Even a mortal with Awakened Essence cannot channel or understand the Essence flow of the world to a degree equal to the Terrestrial Exalted. | | A Mortal is inherently limited in what they can do with Essence. Even a mortal with Awakened Essence cannot channel or understand the Essence flow of the world to a degree equal to the Terrestrial Exalted. |
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| − | The Terrestrial Exalted are entirely of the Creation, those that go beyond it are beyond the Terrestrial Exalted's understanding. Celestial Rank Artifce requires an understanding of Yu-Shan and/or the Wyld. It requires knowing about the power that exists beyond the elements. | + | The Terrestrial Exalted are entirely of Creation, those that go beyond it are beyond the Terrestrial Exalted's understanding. Celestial Rank Artifice requires an understanding of Yu-Shan and/or the Wyld. It requires knowing about the power that exists beyond the elements. |
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| | The Celestial Exalted do not have the area of perfection that embodies the Solar Exalted. They go beyond an understanding of what it means to channel the Essence already existent in Creation. In fact, they are able to fathom the secrets of Elsewhere and bridge the gap between the two realms. This creates artifacts that contain a little bit of Elsewhere within Creation. No other group can understand or direct the sort of energy granted to the Solar Exalted through their patron the Unconquered Sun. The Abyssal and Infernal Exalted are changed and altered (some would say damaged) Solar Shards, and as such their sheer power is equivalent to what the Solars can achieve. | | The Celestial Exalted do not have the area of perfection that embodies the Solar Exalted. They go beyond an understanding of what it means to channel the Essence already existent in Creation. In fact, they are able to fathom the secrets of Elsewhere and bridge the gap between the two realms. This creates artifacts that contain a little bit of Elsewhere within Creation. No other group can understand or direct the sort of energy granted to the Solar Exalted through their patron the Unconquered Sun. The Abyssal and Infernal Exalted are changed and altered (some would say damaged) Solar Shards, and as such their sheer power is equivalent to what the Solars can achieve. |
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| − | <b><i>Where Does N/A Fit In</b></i>
| + | == Official Artifact Examples in the Ranks == |
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| − | The three Exalted artifice ranks contain the N/A level topping them off. N/A is really a placement category for acts of artifice that are too powerful for normal inclusion in one level but are too weak to be placed in the higher Rank. Thus, Terrestrial N/A is really Celestial Level Zero. Celestial N/A is really Solar Level Zero. Solar N/A is the height of development and very unique acts of artifice without compare.
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| − | Lets take Terrestrial N/A as an exmaple of what the above means. With a lot of work a Terrestrial Exalted could make the artifact of N/A level. This construction would be expensive, hard and very resource-expensive. Yet, a Celestial Exalted would find that the same piece of artifice comes a lot esier to them.
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| − | <b><i>The Artifact Background</b></i>
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| − | Due to the nature of the new Artifact rules the cost of gaining artifacts at character creation must be changed slightly. Below is the description of those changes.
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| − | <b>Rule 1:</b> Mortal Rank Artifacts, which are Thaumaturgical Enchantments are bought with the Resource background. They fit the normal rules for such things.
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| − | <b>Rule 2:</b> Terrestrial Ranks Artifacts cost one point per dot. Level 0 is Resource based, this is not an Artifact. Level 1 is 1, Level 2 is 2, Level 3 is 3, Level 4 is 4, and Level 5 is 5. With the same concept that it costs Bonus points rather than background points to buy Levels 4 and 5.
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| − | <b>Rule 3:</b> Celestial Rank Artifacts cost 5 + 1 per level. So Level 1 is 6, Level 2 is 7, Level 3 is 8, Level 4 is 9, Level 5 is 10. A player may buy levels 1, 2 and 3 without much explanation, but 4 and 5 need a good background reason. The reason for this restriction is that Celestial Rank artifacts of levels 1, 2 and 3 were buildable by the Shogunate during its reign and thus can be found. Anything higher than that is beyond the capacity of the Terrestrial Exalted. All artifact purchases of this level must be approved by the ST.
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| − | <b>Rule 4:</b> Just like players are not able to start a game with spells within the Solar Circle of Sorcery, they cannot normally start a game with Solar Rank Artifacts. Solar Rank Artifacts cost 10 + 1 per level. So Level 1 is 11, Level 2 is 12, Level 3 is 13, Level 4 is 14, Level 5 is 15. To get Solar Rank Artifacts at character creation a character must bye the Legendary Artifact Merit for 10 points. Then they may spend another +1 for each level in the Solar Artifact. So it costs the same as the above rules, but through this method it becomes oped for them.
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| − | <b>Rule 5:</b> N/A Solar and Celestial cannot be bought at character creation. N/A Terrestrial costs either 5 or 6 points, 5 if its closer to Terrestrial or 6 if its closer to Celestial. This is up to the ST.
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| − | == Offical Artifact Examples in the Ranks == | |
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| | <b><i>Core Book Artifacts</b></i> | | <b><i>Core Book Artifacts</b></i> |
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| | *Grand Grimscythe - Terrestrial | | *Grand Grimscythe - Terrestrial |
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| − | <b>Artfiact Martial Arts Weapons</b> | + | <b>Artifact Martial Arts Weapons</b> |
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| | *Bloodspike Harness - Terrestrial | | *Bloodspike Harness - Terrestrial |
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| | *Dawning Sun Indomitable-class Heavy Battlecrusier - Solar | | *Dawning Sun Indomitable-class Heavy Battlecrusier - Solar |
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| | ===== Commentary ===== | | ===== Commentary ===== |
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| − | This is not finished. If anybody has ideas that could make this more complete do not hestitate to add things. I do ask that nothing be fundamentally altered or changed without my notification, but beyond that feel free. :) - [[Heru]]
| + | The document got so large with comments that I created a new Commentary Page here: Heru/[[FourRanksOldComments]]. |
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| − | Interesting concept... but how does this affect the Artifact Background? Does it cost me the same amount to buy a 5-dot Terrestrial artifact as it does to buy a 5-dot Solar artifact? Can Dragon-Blooded start with First Age Solar artifacts? Etc. - IanPrice
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| − | *Thats a good question and I'm glad that you posted it. I'm going to think about it for a little while then post the addition. If you have some ideas and suggesstions please post them, I'd love to here them. -[[Heru]]
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| − | **I am not sure if the costs make sense and would like others to look over them, Thanks. -[[Heru]]
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| − | It is of note that the Solar Circle Sorcery charm is accessible at character creation, because it's a charm and could have stayed with the Shard through Lytek's cleaning. If you can get Essence 5 and Occult 5 both at creation, that is. Now, as for your costs, they could be reasonable, but make sure that you are giving somebody a thing which is worth what's paid for it.
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| − | * By your point values, do you mean per dot? As in, it costs 1 BP per dot for Terrestrial Artifacts rated 1-3, etc?
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| − | ** If this is the case, a level 5 Solar Artifact (for the sake of arguement) would cost 27 BP.
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| − | ** This effectively invalidates the Legendary Artifact Merit
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| − | * If you mean that this is the total cost for each artifact in the dot range mentioned, that means you've made Artifacts in general cheaper, but placed restrictions on which ones people could take.
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| − | ** This would make it so ridiculously affordable that most Exalts will have at least one Terrestrial artifact.
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| − | ** The positive effect on more powerful artifacts is that you will have the excuse to make them the subject of adventures rather than simply something to spend points on.
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| − | ** The negative effect is that you will have to re-stat most personal artifacts, at least assigning different levels to them, and possibly changing around stats to make the "legendary" things live up to their status.
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| − | Also, as a quick comparison: For 7 BP, I could buy any normal Background at 5 dots. I could buy another dot of Essence. For 6 BP, I could buy 3 dots of a non-favored ability. For 5 BP I could get 5 dots of favored abilities, or a non-favored Charm. For 4 BP, I could get a favored Charm. These are improvements which compete strongly with your expensive (or simply prohibited) artifacts for my caring. It's quite possible, if you make the powerful artifacts too hard to get, that instead of questing for them, players will stop caring about them. But if you're going to effectively eliminate the superpowerful artifacts from your game, why bother with extensive rules write-ups? - IanPrice<i>, offering more food for thought.</i>
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| − | Hmm, that is food for thought, food that I appreciate. :) But lets see
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| − | *Yeah, the sorcery charm is available but no spells are. But the real question is where is a player going to get a Solar Rank Artifact. Even the 1st Level of that Rank is a very powerful thing. Remember, it is something that only the Solars can create and thus are very rare and very powerful and very unique. Now, I could see allowing one Solar Rank Artifact for a player, this could be something that the Unconquered Sun gave to the player directly. It would be a powerful item.
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| − | *With that in mind, the costs for Terrestrial Rank Artifacts are the exact same cost as they are now. Whenever I read about an artifact in an Exalted book the first think I look to is whether or not its built by the Terrestrials. If it is, then its Terrestrial Rank, if its not than its Celestial unless its so advanced.
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| − | *I forgot about the Legendary Artifact merit. I like that merit and do not want to ban it. I will add a footnote that this is the only way a player can get a Solar Rank Artifact at character Creation.
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| − | *The way I gathered the costs was to look in the Core Rulebook. The 1 point for levels 1, 2 and 3 were from the Bonus Point chart. The 2 points for levels 4 and five came from the same chart. To get the numbers for the other two Ranks I just added one point, using the same fomula of 1-3, 4-5.
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| − | *Before I update the rules above I'm going to post the ideas here. Thus, my question is would it be balanced to make the costs as listed below:
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| − | **Terrestrial Ranks Artifacts cost one point per dot. So its one-one, two-two, three-three, four-four, five-five. With the same concept that it costs Bonus points rather than background points to buy Levels 4 and 5.
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| − | **Celestial Rank Artifacts cost 5+ 1 per level. So Level 1 is 6, Level 2 is 7, Level 3 is 8, Level 4 is 9, Level 5 is 10. A player may bye levels 1, 2 and 3 without much explanation, but 4 and 5 need a good background reason. What is it that the character has his hands on the Celestial artifact.
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| − | **Solar Rank Artifacts cost 10+ 1 per level. So Level 1 is 11, Level 2 is 12, Level 3 is 13, Level 4 is 14, Level 5 is 15. To get Solar Rank Artifacts at character creation a character must bye the Legendary Artifact Merit for 10 points. Then they may spend another +1 for each level in the Solar Artifact. So it costs the same as the above rules, but through this method it becomes oped for them. -[[Heru]]
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| − | WhaT you should ask yourself is "where do the Alchemicals and Mountain Folk fit into this+" On one hand they are less powerful then solars, even then the other Celestials. On the other hand, they are both Chosen of Autochton in one way or the other. The mountain folk als built many of the weapons used in the Primo Wars, and given thw wonder The Enlightendned was hited to be capale of, they seemed to have been able to rival, inf not somtimes exceed the solars Prior to the Great Geas. Also, They buy craft cheaper then anyone else, at the cost of current rating.
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| − | I am sory if I sound all whiney. It is a combination of havin nearly edetic recall, much knowledge of X1, anad an obsession with details. Aslo, I think the conection to the Primal Inventor should mean somthing. -[[Azurelight]]
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| − | Ps.Also, Drop by my page and check my charms and spells, you might like them.
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| − | As always, thanks. I love comments cause they are thought provoking. I'm just going to begin commenting.
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| − | *Alchemicals are Celestial Rank. I feel that is a fine posistion for them. Nothing has actually shown them to be that advanced or creative or capable. I might say that those who become City Fathers gain access to Solar Rank due to their deeper connection to the Maker, but that would be it.
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| − | *Mountain Folk are wierd. They are naturally Solar Rank, but due to the Great Geas they have been pushed back to Celestial Exalted. This is one of the main reasons that Authocthon was so pissed off, he was forced to limit them.
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| − | *What is you opinion on the cost of the artifacts, do you think that they are too expensive, too cheap or just right.
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| − | *You are not being whiney. I like the comments you are making, they are fun to read and enjoyable to respond to. Just so you know, having edetic recall sounds so cool, I wish I had that. :) Also, I am glad that you are providing some details that I might miss. While some things I will just ignore (say the age of the First Age, :)] I think it is much more fun to try and fit in the offical information than to dismiss it. Only when the official stuff takes away from the fun do I completely throw it out the window. So once again thanks for the comments, I want them. - [[Heru]]
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| − | I am fine with the thing on alchemicals. I was mostly concerned with Mountain folk, but their rank makes perfect sense. I am not sure about the costs, since I never used the artifact background myself (evrthing my player own was crafted or found in-game.) I do feel that the upper cost level are a bit contrived though. I only have one objektion, ant that is Wind blade. Maby it's just me, but I though they were fairly common, and that they had units of windblade archers in the first age. Since celestial are linmited, celestial understandin would invalidat mass production, (I think?)
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| − | I don't have actualy edetic/ photographic memory. My psykologist said tha my MeM is about as good as it get <i>without</> being edetic. Hence I can still forget stuff, but once I read somthing through throughly, I can usuallly rembver all key points and meanings of the text and oten well enoug to recall about 80 prect of it. I can still forget, and my meomory is still selsctive, but generally it doenst forget important facts, if I feel well.
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| − | Under stress, it is an other matter entierly. Also, thigs like appontments and such...well, they tend to be forgotten too.-[[Azurelight]]
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| − | Here are my responses Azurelight.
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| − | *No, Celestial Rank artifacts can be massproduced but it requires Celestial Exalted oversight. A Terrestrial Exalted could produce them without using Celestial manufacturing infrustructure.
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| − | *In the First Age anything below mid-Solar Rank could be mass-produced.
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| − | *The reason I made them celestial is because of the transformation that they have. I didn't think that the Terrestrial Exalted would have the understanding necessary to make objects transform from one state to another state in a small package. At the same time, nothing in the entry actually tells me if they are used by current government factions (the Realm or Lookshy), so I don't know.
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| − | *The information about you memory, that is very cool. - [[Heru]]
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| − | Personally, I think the higher costs for Celestial and Solar-level Artifacts are much too high, unless you're planning a complete overhaul of the artifacts in question. For example, the Singing Staff. This lets me reshape earth. It's fun, it's useful. But it's sure as hell not worth 14 bonus points. It's no legendary artifact. Dragon Tear Tiara as 7 bonus points, compared to only 4 for Armor of the Air Dragon? (Unless AotAD is Celestial, in which case it's now a lot pricier than normal armor...) I think you need a better way of doing this. Maybe just +1 Artifact level, or just call Terrestrial 1-3, Celestial 4-5, Solar N/A. - FrivYeti
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| − | Here are my responses FrivYeti.
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| − | *Maybe it comes down to me doing more of the fluff thing then the cruntch thing. I really like advanced magitech.
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| − | *I just feel that having one five level curve doesn't give us the breath to actually labell things where they belong. Why is a powered armor in Wonder sof a Lost Age five dots and so is the heavy plate armor in the Core book. They are not the same, the magic that makes them work is not the same. In my system the Celestial Power Armor is Celestial Rank (or Solar with some models) while the heavy armor in the Core book are Terrestrial. Any now they make sense.
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| − | *It seems the only reason that items are three dots and others five is so that they be rare. Its a contrived reason that I don't like.
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| − | *Dragon Armor is Terrestrial Rank, it is mass produced by the Terrestrial Exalted and thus within their understanding.
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| − | *I'm not entirely sure what you mean by +1 Artifact Level. Are you saying that a Celestial Rank should cost Level +1, and maybe have Solar Rank cost Level + 2. So the scale would be,
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| − | **For Terrestrial Ranks: Level 1 is 1, level 2 is 2, level 3 is 3, level 4 is 4, level 5 is 5.
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| − | **For Celestial Rank, level 1 is 2, Level 2 is 3, Level 3 is 4, level 4 is 5, level 5 is 6.
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| − | **Solar Rank, level 1 is 3, Level 2 is 4, Level 3 is 5, level 4 is 6, level 5 is 7.
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| − | *The last option does not help me as it narrows everything down even more. I want a broad range to place the artifacts. - [[Heru]]
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| − | : My argument is more or less that the broad range that you are creating is going to completely doom large areas of the game setting. <br>
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| − | : First, if Celestials can create Celestial artifacts as easily as they can create Terrestrial ones, there is no good reason for a Celestial Exalt to have to pay the extra bonus points for Celestial-level artifacts. Furthermore, by increasing the cost as dramatically as you have, you have ruined the concept of any small-item Celestial artifact.
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| − | : For example, a Dragon Tear Tiara currently costs 2 background points. This puts it on the same level as a hearthstone bracer (2 points). Under your system, the Dragon Tear Tiara costs 7 background points, making it equivalent to a hearthstone bracer, daiklave, and reinforced breastplate, all at the same time. Unless you are planning on defending these artifacts as being that much better, your system is completely flawed.
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| − | : As another example, can you defend the concept that Celestial Battle Armor is worth 5 background dots more than Terrestrial Battle armor?
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| − | : The artifact rating of an artifact is based on its inherent power, the extra power that must be placed into it, and the general capability of it. The result of your system is an extremely exaggerated version of what you say you dislike - Celestial and Solar artifacts become exponentially more expensive simply because they are more rare. - FrivYeti
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| − | ::My thoughts in reponse
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| − | ::*I know that their is a way to maintain the settign and maintain my ranks. I just have to find it, and find it I will. I'm obstinate like that.
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| − | ::*That makes sense. In fact I agree with you. A person should be able to make artifacts at their level cheeply. But what about buying them. A Celestial rank artifact is more powerful than a Terrestrial one. I don't understand why a level 3 Terrestrial should cost the same as a level 3 Celestial. Maybe I am missing something since I am looking to hard into fluff.
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| − | ::*But then we have an example of Articulated Plate (level 4 artifact) and Armor of the Immaculate Dragons (also level 4 artifact). Can you honestly tell me that they are the same, that they should be the same level. Now compare it to a Battle Carrier, also level 4. All these things cost the same but they are very different. I, for one, do not think that Articulated Plated should be level 4.
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| − | ::*The other option I posted, listed in my comments above yours, is too change the cost to equal 3. Terrestrial Artifacts cost base, Celestial Artifacts cost base + 1, Solar Arifacts cost base + 2. This makes the most expensive normal item, Solar 5 cost 7 points.
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| − | ::*Along with the change of cost I would also have to change the dot of the artifact. For example, the Five-Metal Shrike is a N/A artifact in the current system. In my system it is Solar Rank. It is not Solar N/A, rather it is lower. An artifact might be offically level 3 but if it became Celestial it might be moved down to level 0, 1 or 2.
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| − | ::*I honestly feel that a Celestial Battle Armor should be better than Terrestrial. I mean look which group is wearing the armor. Now, I honestly can't say five mor points. Also, Celestial Battle Armor is level five in the current system, in my system it is not a level 5 Celestial artifact. I can't honestly say where it would be at this exact moment, but not 5. The biggest problem
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| − | ::*Yeah, I guess that would be true *now*, in the Second Age. But bring back the Solar Realm and the cost of these artifacts become cheaper. The way I could see it happening is that even Terrestrial Artifacts become bought with Resources and Celestial/Solar are bought with Artifact. But that is not the way it is now and that is more fluff then game play.
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| − | ::*My new question is does the new cost make sense: Terrestrial base, Celestial +1, Solar +2. The problem I see with this is that Legendary Aritfact costs 10 points, that is less than the actual cost of a Solar Artifact. The fact of this new system is that some Celestial artifacts would cost less than Terrestrial Artifacts. The greatest limiting factor for that is the ST.
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| − | ::*I just don't know. I like this in concept. I think it is cool and explains why the Shogunate and current Realm/Lookshy can't build at that was built in the previous Age. I just have a difficult time in making it work numbers wise. -[[Heru]]
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| − | My $0.02 on costs: For 14 bonus points, I can get 2 dots of Essence. At Essence (starting 2 + 2 more = 4), I can perform Celestial Sorcery, take Essence Flow charms so I can use Excellencies with other charms without Comboing, or use Infinite Mastery charms to pre-commit essence for my Excellencies and use them for a whole scene as long as they are appropriately Comboed for what I'm doing. Is a rank 4 Solar artifact going to be worth that? I'd expect something like the Five-Metal Shrike for that cost... since at Essence 4, I could kill armies by myself, and I'm also building up towards Essence 5 and beyond, and all the things I could do with that. - IanPrice
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| − | Here is my response to IanPrice.
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| − | *Could you look at the modified cost that I listed in my response to FrivYeti, maybe that is a little more balanced.
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| − | *I appreciate the help in making it cost effective. I guess it all comes down to be caring more about fluff than I actually do about game mechanics. Its bad when I try to come up with new rules, but works when I just think about the setting. -[[Heru]]
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| − | There's a broad range of placement, then there's game balance. There's world effect, then there's game effect. Game effect is about arbitrary mathematical statistics which show that X is greater than Y but equal to Z. World effect is about various things, which may or may not have clear metrics. They have no relationship which is not arbitrary and artificial. However, many effects are already in place within the existing system. The best advice I can give you is to familiarize yourself more thoroughly with the existing rules. The most important ones are all in the Second Edition core book. As to the costs above, see my earlier notes. Really, there are no listed costs for level 6 and 7 backgrounds, so I can't judge them well. "Level 6" Legendary Breeding costs 3BP on top of the 3 for the first 3 dots and the 4 for dosts 4 and 5; a total of 10 BP. Legendary Artifact seems to follow the same pattern, since it does not enhance an Artifact background at 5, it just costs 10 BP and you have an N/A artifact. The reason for this, that there are only 6 ranks of Artifact power, is that neither world effect nor game effect is the sole determinant. The rules also touch on story effect - how much play will this object see? How important is it in your chronicle? Will wars be fought over it? Will it decide the fate of the world based on who uses it, and how? I don't have an answer for you. I like the system as it is. If you expand it like this, be careful what you roll over. - IanPrice
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| − | *I don't know what tot say. I appreciate the comments and the advise. I also like the descriptions of cost you are showing me. I just have never been satisfied with the single tier artifact system. Look to my comments to FrivYeti to see what I mean. Its basicly the same thing, you guys are ganging up on me. :) Maybe I should just stick to fluff and ignore rules. -[[Heru]], <i> who is kidding about the ganging up and is actually enjoying the disussion with no hard feelings.</i>
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| − | Ok, Heru. I might bae able to provide useful insight. First, don't ignore rules just bacuse. It doenst work well with any system, and Especially not with the Exalted system. The system is a house of cards (even its own developer said that). Also, it is not good to compare Celestil battle armor with Articulated plate with Celestial battle armor, since, by wws own published system, the formes is real artifact 3. The later on the other hand, Actyally requiers 8 dots of backgrounds to work, not 5. those are the things used to balance the costs. The proble with te artifact scale, Imo, is not the scale itself, but the Inability of the writers to apply it consistently.
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| − | There is agood way to fix this, and it was publidhed in Savant and sorcerer. Unfourtinetly, the text itself is so clumsly written that, read by itself it makes little sense.
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| − | My suggested fix is 2 lengthy to discuss here, but some of it can be found in my BookOfArtifice, and the rest, I will happily share using Email or chat, if you want to-
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| − | There are ways to fix the error in the 5 dot scale, but your is a bit clumsy and not intutive enough to make a stable system. I am harsh now, but I am just sharing what 13 years of GMing and system design thought me. -[[Azurelight]]
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| − | Okay, I accept that this doesn't work rules wise. I also accept that I do not have such a deep understanding of the rules. I know how it works on the surface, but anything beyond that I haven't paid attention to. To me, the story and the world is more entertaining then the pure numbers. Is their any way that I can keep the fluff but discard the rules. I really, *really* want to keep the fluff behind my change. I like what it brings to the game in a completely fluff way. I don't want to discard the fluff. So, I am asking for any help by either you or anybody else who reads this to help me figure out a way to keep the fluff but not that cruntch. -[[Heru]]
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| − | *I'd say yes, you can keep the fluuf. However, rather than reflect it in a new rule set, reflect it in description. As an example, when a character in my game discovered her past life's dire lance, I didn't describe it as "Ok, you find an orichalcum dire lance in the tomb". I went into detail about the object, describing the loving care put into crafting it, even going so far as to print out a rough sketch a friend made of the engravings along the side. When she uses it in combat, the tip glows with "the contained might of the Unconquered Sun's chosen, the brilliance of dawn's light over a shadowed landscape". While stat-wise it only has the base dire lance stats with the orichalcum MM bonus, everyone who sees it knows this isn't just a "dire lance"... It's Bright Morning Blessing, the lance that slew a god. That legend alone gives weight to the weilder and showing it before certain company impresses and inspires awe.
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| − | *While yes, a +3 to damage might be nice, it's so much better when you're facing a little god intent on harming you and you whip out a spear he remembers vividly carving through his ephemeral flesh and shows just a hint of fear and a willingness to talk instead of risk the owner of said spear finishing the job she left so long ago. -[[Gamerjoe]]
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| − | I refuse to accept the existance of level 2 daiklaves that are only a hearthstone socket, a 5MM bonus and a statline. Every Artifact in existence has a story, even a shitty one. And thus, they all have powers. Now maybe the daiklave or direlance can only ensure that you never get rabies, but it has some power.<br>
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| − | As to this whole idea, it's been proposed before. Check out [[Moxiane]]'s page for his idea of Terrestrial, Celestial and Solar rankings amongst artifacts. I think, personally, it's a horrible idea. The power of an Artifact is determined by the skill of its maker and the materials used to create it. A Lunar can do no better at making Artifacts then a Terrestrial can except that a Lunars Crafts charms (if they had any..) may be more powerful then the Dragon-Bloods. The current 1-5 scale may be somewhat imprecise due to the fact that each level has a range of power inside it, but that can't be helped. And shouldn't be. That's how it was designed. - [[Telgar]]
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| − | It is also imporatant to note that the Artifact scale is not linear. So an artifact 3 has more power then an artifact 2 +artifact 1. And to keep the fluff image in your head, there a nuber of ways to do that. Like I said though, explining them here is hard for me....Do you use any chat program?
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| − | Hmm....GL might help getting the chrunch in line though -[[Azurelight]]
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| − | I know its not linear and that item description is very important, I also know that it could technically fit everything in it. I just think its clunky. What is, for example, an artifact 4 weapon. If thousands and one devices can fit in that level than how can I actually decide what goes in their, just guess. I don't know, I like the concept of Terrestrial, Celestial and Solar Rank Artifacts but I am not a person who understands the rules to the very deep degree needed to make it work rules wise. Thats okay, I don't need to modify the rules to modify the fluff. Any help, Azurelight and the others, would be appreciated. I don't just want to ditch this as I am very attached to the concept. -[[Heru]]
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| − | :As a pro writer, one of the first things I learned is that the thing you love most is the thing you must let go of. Does that mean ditch? Well... usually, honestly. On the other hand, there are some very good ideas here. I think what is needed is first to leave the idea alone for a few days, then to come back and look at it fresh with an eye towards what is worth keeping and what isn't as good as you first thought. Wheat and chaff grow on the same stalk after all. I'd be glad to help develop and grow your idea, once you've decided what the most important part for you to keep is. - IanPrice
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| − | I point out that "Exalted" scale enchanted equipment will typically beat a canon artifact 2 MagicalMaterials varient. Perfect weapons are already pretty close to a daiklave before the material bonus, and don't have any attunement costs. Giving -more- bonuses to mortal-enchanted objects makes them, unless you're facing a sorcerer with a dispel, a more preferable choice than an artifact. I don't think that should happen quite like that. <br> -- [[Darloth]]
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| − | *Ex2nd Straight Sword with Exalted enchantment: Speed 4(I guess), Acc +5, Dam +6L, Def +2, Rate 3 (+2s on Damage and Accuracy)
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| − | *Ex2nd Daiklave with orichalcum material bonus: Speed 5, Acc +4, Dam +6L, Def +3, Rate 4 (commit cost 5, art 2)
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| − | *These hold out with 1st edition even moreso. Also, I didn't subtract 1 from speed for Exalted level enchantment, not sure if it applies. The stats are basically the same, but, the straight sword is easier to hide, a bit quicker (to make up for less rate) and slightly more accurate, although less defense. It doesn't cost art 2, and has 0 commit cost, which is nice.
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| − | My comments to the above:
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| − | *Telgar, thanks for the comment. I know that you do not feel the need for such a system, I do though. After you posted the information about [[Moxiane]]'s page I read it. I gotta say, while its interesting I do not like the fact that his idea on Solar Artifacts. I do not see fate having to do anything with it, and I don't like it. Other than that it was an interesting read, quite fun. Yet not what I want. You seem to like to remove the magic of the Exalted away from the crafting. When I say a Solar is better than a Celestial, or a Celestial better than a Terrestrial, or a Terrestrial better than a mortal I am talking about including anima effects, Charms, sorcery, ability to speak to spirits, etc. To me all that has to be added to the effect, and in total makes the higher types of Exalted better than the former. Using the Charms and magics available to the Solar Exalted they can craft things that no Terrestrial Exalted can imagine.
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| − | *IanPrice, I never ditch my ideas. I save them and store them until later when they might come in handy. Their are a lot of no-more than paragrah ideas that I have stored away in a file in Word. Many times I have went through them and found snipets that so fit something new that I am doing. So yes, I can see myself going away from this for a while. But, no, I will never throw the idea away or discard it completely. If that sounds argumentative, it kinda is but its not meant to be hars or mean (if that makes sense). I appreciate the comments and the help that you are suggesting.
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| − | *Thanks for the comment Darloth. My thought behind the Exalted level (whether its accurate or not is something else) is that all Artifacts have that boost automatically. Since officially it doesnt, you need to add it on top. I saw it as making a device that has the potential to actually hold the Essence that makes an artifact an artifact. Thus, while you are increasing the potential of mundane artifacts, you must almost always increase the minimum of magicial artifacts.
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| − | *On another point, this doesn't seem to work as a character creation system. Thus, I am going to try and figure out a way to make this operate beyond character creation. What that entails is in no way effecting the Artifact Background, those costs will remain the same. This system will only effect artfacts in game, which is more story driven than the ones bought at character creation. -[[Heru]]
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| − | I had a new idea, and I want to place it here as notes. This system wouldn't effect the character creation purchace of artifacts. That would remain entirely based on artifact level and not who built it. This works because it seems that the artifact rating is based on rarity, at least that is how White Wolf has wrote it even if its not the way its supposed to work. The concept of Terrestrial, Celestial, Solar only comes in during the player building of an Artifact. While I will have rules in time, the first question in this system would be: Is it of your Rank or below. If yes, then its within your personal capabilities, if no, then you cannot even fanthom the secrets behind it. - [[Heru]]
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| − | After ignoring this for a whole I decided to take a look at it today. Going over it I like some of what I posted while not liking other parts. Some of the changes I would make is this:
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| − | :o What was previous called the first, or mortal, level could be called the Zeroth Level. Its like the standard Martial Arts skill is the zeroth level of the supernatural martial arts - this concept is described in the Scroll of the Monk.
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| − | :o Terrestrial, Celestial and Solar Rank artifacts work in a fluff text but not in a rule base. Because of that I plan on removing the rules mechanic of this and making it entirely fluff. That is, declaring something as Solar has no effect on artifact background or creation rules. The only power it does have is in saying who can actually design and construct that type of artfiact.
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| − | :o Again, instead of making it rulebased I will be tying in 'suggestions' of how the current artfiact levels could translate into my system. For example:
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| − | ::o Zeroth Rank Artifce (mortal) are all considered under the Resource background not Artfiact.
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| − | ::o Terrestrial Artifacts are generally considered Artifacts 1 and 2; Celestial is usually 3 and 4, and Solar usually 5 and N/A.
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| − | ::o The above is not a hard and fast rule though, for sometimes other reasons (such as game balance or rarity) could cause a lower rank artifact to be given a higher Artifact Rating, or visa versa. Best example of this are the armors in the core book which provide no magical abilities but are quite high up on the scale of dots - they would all be Terrestrial despite some of them being Artifact 3, 4 and 5.
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| − | :o Another question is what groups fit under the various category ranks. Using both upper posted information and current thought here is what I think.
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| − | ::o Zeroth Rank - Mortals
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| − | ::o First Rank - Terrestrials, Dragon-Kings, Ghosts
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| − | ::o Second Rank - Lunars, Sidereals, Mountain Folk (with Geas), Alchemicals (standard)
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| − | ::o Third rank - Solars, Abyssals, Mountain Folk (before the Great Geas), Alchemicals (city versions)
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| − | :o I think this change makes perfect sense, I am not playing with the rules, rather I am adding some fluff text above and beyond that. This fluff makes it so that the rules can fit in how those in the Shogunate and the Second Age (and even Lunars and Sidereals) could not create stuff that were created by the Solars in the First Age. And since I am not affecting the rules at all, no balance issues will come of this. And thus everybody wins. :) -[[Heru]]
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It is an inherent fact of Creation that mortals can never reach the heights of the Terrestrial Exalted, or the Terrestrial Exalted the Celestials. Or anybody ever equal the sheer creative genius of the Solar Exalted. The reason for this is the difficulty in managing and crafting the Essence flows and channels in artifacts. Mortals, due to their inherent nature, are only able to comprehend the most basics of such things.
Upon being Exalted new doors are open, and the wealth of dreams can be made manifested. The Dragon-Blooded can produce artifacts that put to shame mortal devices, yet themselves are put to shame by the powerful artifacts of the Celestial Exalted. Lunar and Sidereal understanding of Essence is deep and mighty, yet even they cannot hope to fathom the more esoteric lessons that come naturally to the Solar Exalted. For the Solar Exalted nothing is beyond their capabilities given time, planning and patience.
It is known that those levels below one's natural level come easy to the Exalted. For example, the Dragon-Blood are able to craft Mortal-level artifacts as easily as a person breathes. This is why the Solar Exalted have such an easy time of bringing forth the growth of a civilization that they rule, they are able forge technology of Mortal, Terrestrial, and Celestial levels easily and without much preparation. If one looks at the rate of develop in the First Age Solar Deliberative one can see rapid technological growth before it levels out to Solar Level which is hard even for the Solar Exalted.
As this relates to Charms, the Dragon-Blooded have Craft Charms that make it very much easier for them to Craft First Rank Magitech. The Lunar and Sidereal Exalted have Craft and Intelligence Charms that allow them to make artifacts of Second and First Circle Magitech easily. The Solar and Abyssal Exalted have the Craft Charms for the Crafting of Third, Second and First Circle Magitechs almost as simple as riding a bike.
The entire point of this document is not to change the rules or the statistics for anything. The entire theme of this based on a fluff concept - that only certain groups can create certain types and basics of technology. This doesn't even mean construct it means design, explain and understand. That said the main point of this will be the creating of an overlay above the current Artifact system that describes what group is the principle group that can understand it and how it operates.
An example below will best explain this; take two artifacts, the Staff of Growing and the Staff of Fate Singing. Lets say they were both Level 3 Artifacts. The Staff of Growing is Terrestrial while the Staff of Fate Singing is Celestial. Despite both being Level 3, the Terrestrial Exalted can only understand, fathom and replicate the Staff of Growing. The Staff of Fate Singing, being Celestial, can only be understood and replicated by the Celestial Exalted. This can be for various reasons, but for whatever reasons one of the Level 3 is out of the Terrestrials capabilities to make while the other Level 3 is not.
This is the rank that anybody in Creation can produce. Use the description of Thaumaturgical Enchantment described in the Player's Guide for what this can produce.
This is the level of produce that the Terrestrial Exalted could build. This is the common tools and equipment in existence, mighty yet not fundamentally that much greater than normal.
All artifacts that are listed as being manufactured by the Realm or Lookshy are automatically of this type. The exception to this is the early Shogunate who was able to produce levels 1 and 2 Celestial because of the existence of First Age infrastructure.
These are the wonders of the world produced by Sidereals, Lunars, Mountain Folk and Alchemical Exalted. They were once common and so they can be seen a lot in ruins and scraps. In the Second Age they provide a lot of the strength of both the Sidereals and the Lunars.
The most powerful, world-shaking artifacts within Creation only available to Solars and Abyssals. Even the most basic Solar Rank artifacts are mighty, though very much surpassed in the other levels of Solar Artifice. For the most part the artifacts of this rank are not seen in the fallen Second Age. What is seen, though, is usually massive and more powerful than anything else. The Realm Defense Grid and the Five-Metal Shrike are great examples of high end Third Rank artifacts.
It is very possible for an Exalted to craft an artifact below his highest rank, say a Solar building a Celestial or Terrestrial Artifact. Or a Sidereal creating an Artifact for use by the Immaculate Monks, etc. At its base design, one cannot tell whether a Terrestrial Artifact (lets say) was constructed by a Terrestrial Exalted or by a Solar Exalted. Both are required to follow certain general power level rules based on the artifact being Terrestrial level. In addition to that, a Solar (for example) could build a Terrestrial Rank Artifact out of Orichalcum. It still would be Terrestrial, yet its Five Magical Material bonus would only be available to Solars.
Crafting above one's rank is not possible. Each rank signifies more than points on an artifact scale. A Rank symbolizes an understanding of Essence flows and the channels that power the item. It represents being able to force Essence to gather and pool itself into the crafted channels of the artifact. It is, in truth, a level of the power that the Exaltation provides to the person.
A Mortal is inherently limited in what they can do with Essence. Even a mortal with Awakened Essence cannot channel or understand the Essence flow of the world to a degree equal to the Terrestrial Exalted.
The Terrestrial Exalted are entirely of Creation, those that go beyond it are beyond the Terrestrial Exalted's understanding. Celestial Rank Artifice requires an understanding of Yu-Shan and/or the Wyld. It requires knowing about the power that exists beyond the elements.
The Celestial Exalted do not have the area of perfection that embodies the Solar Exalted. They go beyond an understanding of what it means to channel the Essence already existent in Creation. In fact, they are able to fathom the secrets of Elsewhere and bridge the gap between the two realms. This creates artifacts that contain a little bit of Elsewhere within Creation. No other group can understand or direct the sort of energy granted to the Solar Exalted through their patron the Unconquered Sun. The Abyssal and Infernal Exalted are changed and altered (some would say damaged) Solar Shards, and as such their sheer power is equivalent to what the Solars can achieve.
Within the list below are those items described in the Core Rulebook. They have been categorized according to this system of Ranks.
Below is a listing of the vehicles from the Wonders of the Lost Age and how they fit into my four Rank structure.
The document got so large with comments that I created a new Commentary Page here: Heru/FourRanksOldComments.
