Thus Spake Zaraborgstrom/ShunTheSmilingLadyComments

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Ok, for those of us who are just too utterly disgusted with its content to buy the Sidereal book, what the hell does this Charm do? - SilverMeerKat

It makes its target unlovable, by which I mean impossible to love. That's basically all. That's also sort of an offensive comment, SMK. - willows

Well, actually, it does a few other things;P It gives the target an effective Appearance of 1 for all non-magical effects, and makes it difficult for them to invoke any form of supernatural appeal or to maintain it into a new scene (the target has to roll Willpower, difficulty of the Sidereals Essence). Anyone with a permanent Essence less than the Sidereals' own that has romantic feelings for the target looses them, and they don't return when the charm ends. -- CrownedSun

Ah. Well, yes, that is pretty nasty. And my apologies for being offensive, willows; it wasn't my intent. I'm just kind of... horrified at the sort of stuff that goes on between the covers of that book. Sidereals have ways of countering Solar Circle Sorcery and slaying Primordials with a touch - and that, IMHO, is wrong. I just don't agree that Sidereals should be able to beat the dogshit out of Solars. I especially don't think that you should be able to make a starting Sidereal who can give Ahlat a fair and even fight (BotBM, cough, cough). You'd be hard-pressed to do that with a Solar, and you pretty much can't do it with a Lunar; all of this is fairly inconsistent with the setting as I've understood it since the Core. Now, I could be wrong about this, but the way I understood it was that the Exalted power ladder went something like:

  • Solars are the best at everything.
  • Lunars are as good as Solars at combat, pretty damn good at survival-type-stuff and godly at shapeshifting.
  • Sidereals are seers without peer. I don't remember any mention of them being better than Solars at combat before their fatsplat.
  • Dragon Bloods are elite cannon fodder.

If this isn't the impression other people got from the Core, the STC and Scavenger Sons, well, please enlighten me. How do you see the setting as working? - SilverMeerKat

Hey, SMK. Those two Charms you mentioned? While I agreed with your assessment of Spell Shattering Palm (the SCS destroying Charm), it's not a starting Charm by any stretch of the imagination. And Pattern Spider Touch (the Primordial Slayer) doesn't do anything out of line for an Essence 6 or 7 Charm. Yeah, it'll kill anything it touches, up to and inclusive of a Primordial, if said entity doesn't have a Perfect Defense? At that same level of Essence, a Solar can have 6 Perfect Defenses hanging over their head, for less, previously invoked without committing Essence, whose activation doesn't count as a Charm. Essence 6+ Charms are frigging scary, and we haven't seen what lunacy the Solars get into at that point yet. Comparing the heights of Sidereal power and the lows of Solar, and judging that Solars are therefore always weaker, is a foolish comparison.

I've had a standing challenging with a few friends. Make a Sidereal starting character. I'll make a Solar. Name the arena, and the rough contest grounds. The Solar will pound the Sidereal into dogmeat about seven times in ten. They don't when the Sidereal is able to manipulate the circumstances of the fight to mesh with the specific design of their Charms- when they have Astrology effects working for them and against me, when they've long preparred for this day.

The Sidereal are buff. Given time to prepare, they'll narrowly beat a Solar. Kinda like they did during the Usurpation. DS

If you actually read the Sidereal book, I believe some of your concerns would be assuaged. Too many people skim through the charms section of splats and think they've got a complete handle on any given Exalt type. --dg

This isn't really the place for such discussion, I don't think:D I'd start up another Discussion if your keen on having this out on the Wiki, or move over to the forum and start yet another thread:D In general, I don't feel that Sidereals beat the bejeezus out of Solars. I've tried it out, and in the end their combat tactics seemed rather straight-forward. Once you get into Essence 4 Sidereals, Siddies start to win -- but so do Immaculates;P For the same reasons; Solars don't really have any high-Essence charms yet, unless you make them your own. Even so, a Solar with Steel Devil Stance is a hard opponent for a Siddie:D In any event, Siddies have always been noted as peerless Martial Artists. In the end, that's what they are and about /all/ that they are...

I also have to disagree with DS:P Solars, given time to prepare, are at their strongest. Siddies given time to prepare, Solars not, yes of course the Siddies end up on top;P Most other scenarios, it's either a very even battle (both Celestials), or the Solar coming out ahead. In a few instances where there isn't a lot of balance the Siddies win (ancient Essence 6 Siddie, versus a young 100xp Solar). -- CrownedSun

OK, point taken about the level of the Charms I was talking about. Solars probably have things that are just as hideous at those Essence levels. This invalidates my comment about Pattern Spider Touch. It does not, however, invalidate my concerns about SSP and BotBM, both of which are completely ridiculous, and one of which is a starting-level Charm. I'll start a discussion page about this some time when I'm not late for French class. As for the forum, I hate the forum. The last time I started a thread about this exact topic, I got banned. Long story. Anyway, c'est la vie. - SilverMeerKat

Blade of the Battle Maiden is a celestial martial arts charm. A Solar could easily learn it from a Gold Faction Sidereal, and the Lunars could've conceivably passed down the knowledge since the First Age. It's also technically available to any Dragon-Blooded with celestial martial arts initiation, although only outcastes in the Cult of the Illuminated are likely to find a trainer. Even Alchemicals can download it. - GordonMichael



(Back on topic) STSL is one of those highly-effective, highly-specialized Charms the Sidereals excel in. It's devastating in certain social contexts and useless in others. Compare Lunars, who often have some sort of nasty quirk ("you can dodge, but only before you've acted in the turn", etc.), or Dragon-Blooded, who are just fairly weak. It reinforces the Sidereal tendency to analyze a situation, build up a good approach, come in and make a decisive strike that changes the dynamic of the situation. Compare this to a Solar, who can swoop in and use ONE CHARM to throw down 17 successes with a story like "Ragnar hates your guts, he's not worth loving, there's a lot better men out there, now go find yourself one". That does the trick, and that same Charm is generally applicable in many other domains. -- BillGarrett

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