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| − | Hmm, interesting. Can't wait to see how your construct them. :) ((Incidentally, Overly Combative Simian is a fancy way of saying 'combat monkey'; a little embedded joke on my part. - FrivYeti
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| − | Is the Ebon Shadow form finger something people should consider? It's prevents a split dodge pool, at least. - GregLink, with literally less than two cents.
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| − | :It is something I consider. Indeed the Night martial artist will probably go that way. - TonyC
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| − | Abyssal Aegis is actually in Exalted: the Abyssals, rather than B&E, and it renders the user immune to any effect that has an extra effect against undead, Abysslas or Deathlords. If the effect consists solely of such, it is negated entirely; if it has an additional benefit only, then the usual effect happens but no additional effect is gained. As for destroying shadowlands, the spell is called Cleansing Solar Flames, it is of the Adamant Circle, costs 50 motes for a 50-mile radius cleansing plus 10 motes for every extra 50 miles of radius, and takes 10 minutes per 50 miles of radius cleansed. And it's obvious. Very, very obvious. - [[Hapushet]]
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| − | Something that might want to be looked at, and I'm thinking of using eventually if I pop off a Solars vs Lion attempt myself is Five Directions Protocol. This is lethal, as the solars can literally have a variable turn/scene combo using MA instant/supplemental + reflexives charms (HGD + 7SE + solar supersoak charms together), it doesn't state that ALL of the members need to know that style or even that charm. And if you have persistent charms active before the protocol is started up, the effects get bled over at a cost of 1 mote per persistent from the one with said persistent. This means that everyone could be packing CMoS form + Prismatic Arrangement form + something else as well as Blade of the Battle Maiden + Principal of Motion
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| − | :If you look at the comments in the previous discussions, you'll see that I've wondered about using Protocol. For this battle though, I've decided against it for two reasons. One, I don't have Exalted Players Guide. To use protocol, I will have to borrow a friend's copy. (This is also why I probably won't use Righteous Devil Style.) Two, after really looking at Prismatic Arrangement of Creation, I don't think protocol is that useful. One application of Sequential Charm Disruption, and the protocol is broken. Four, and the protocol is gone. Protocol isn't a Form charm and thus is vulnerable that way. - TonyC
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| − | True... but that's where HGD's effects would be in place if it's in the protocol, like I said... something to think about... and which I'll be using myself if I get the chance. Also note that if you have PAoC form up for everyone via protocol up and running, you'd also likely be doing the same back to the Lion, multiple-times if need be. Also note that Protocol acts like a combo, which means it can be tied into a reflexive charm activation. But I digress. I'll still be interested in seeing your results. ~ [[Haku]]
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| − | :Except that you can't use HGD against it. Sequential Charm Disruption is a supplemental <b>parry</b> charm and you can't parry a parry, lest it rains cans of worms. I'm really more worried about the interaction between Sequential Charm Disruption and Charm Redirection Technique against their respective selves and each other. For now, I'm going to assume that the same "you can't parry a parry" logic applies. - TonyC
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| − | That's a good point, except, you're using sequential charm disruption -as- an attack vs one of the solars' charms... in which case, it wouldn't be a parry, would it? The text says that it's used to target charms being used against the martial artist or being activated within 3 feet of her. So, in this sense, it is a parry. And if an attack charm gets redirected at someone else in that protocol, if it's up and running as I noted, it can get pushed right back at the Lion reflexively by one of the solars in the protocol or dodged and parried as normal as it's noted that the attack goes off as normal just pointed at the wrong person, kind of like safety amongst enemies. I'm not sure if that makes sense, I'll come back in the morning aft
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| − | : I'll chime in on this when I get home and have my PG around. - FrivYeti
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| − | :I went and looked back at the debate about whether you can use HGD or ICSS to defend against Rune of Singular Hatred. Since SCD doesn't do HL damage either, I'm pretty sure you can't use HGD against it. I still have no idea how SCD vs. itself goes though. I do recommend to FrivYeti that if he can't find an actual rule anywhere, that he rules SCD can't be defend against itself. Not only because it's parrying a parry, but also because an SCD race between Student and Lion would be boring.
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| − | ::HGD is the ultimate perfect parry, it doesn't matter if you can do so or not... it just -works-. And as for SCD, there are specific rules regarding that charm, one of which is that it only works within 3 feet, and against charms directed AT the user, or at someone near the user. The protocol works as a pusedo combo, which can be negated or redirected, and if it gets redirected, the -combo- can be defended against as normal as if it was an attack redirected by safety amongst enemies.<br><br>Also SCD must be able to legally annul or redirect ALL the charms in a combo, or protocol in this case, and since -form- charms are part of that protocol or bled into it, it simply can't shut the protocol down or redirect it. Of course it should also be noted that a protocol's cost is divided evenly across all its users, while the lion would need to pay the entire cost + 5 motes to affect it, which could make it a tad expensive. ~ [[haku]]
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| − | :::ST: The Guild merchant decides that he doesn't like you and doubles his price.
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| − | :::Player: Heavenly Guardian Defense!
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| − | :::ST: What?! But -
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| − | :::Player: HGD! I HGD it away! Look, it just works, okay.
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| − | :::No offense, Haku, but if we follow your reasoning through, you'll end up in that situation. And doesn't PG discuss this already? And as for protocol, have you considered the style weapons? Unless you want everyone to go unarmed. Yes, there are ways to get around that. But if we create the whole circle to get that effect, you'll end up with boring quintuplets. Also, just because a protocol has Form charms don't mean the rest of the protocol can't be shut down. Protocol is <b>not</b> a combo. A combo contains Instant charms only, can only contain one Simple charm, one Extra Action, and has rules about ability and such. This can be destroyed by SCD. Or you can choose to annul one existing effect. While an existing Form charm can not be annuled, SCD can annul, say, an existing Flow Like Blood. Next, Lion will pay the price, no problem. Guy has 200 motes to spare. Then he kills you and regains the motes. Protocol is strong, but there are ways to shut it down. Against Lion, it's a lot safer to go with multiple approaches rather than relying on one schtick. - TonyC
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| − | ::You mean like how the Lion keeps on depending on SMA to stomp the solars into the ground? Because let's face it, that's what happened the last go-around. In a non-SMA fight, the fight might have gone different. Also, a truly twinked out group of Solars would have gotten a number of spirits to bless 'em as well as sidereals to hit them with positive sidereal astrology to buff them up.<br><br>Regarding the protocol, it -behaves- like a group combo designed for dragonblooded, heck, it's even been noted to cost double to purchase with xp for non-dragonblooded. Which does make it a sort of combo, and should the Lion want to hit the group with SCD, he would need to hit -multiple- times at the moment they engaged him to nail all the persistents up and running (the solar whose running the persistent is the logical target).<br><br>In any event, it is your call, but when you give one side access to virtually all the SMA, and the other side restricted access, what do you expect to happen? Naturally, one side would stomp the other. Also, as far as I know... none of the SMA allows the user to pack a daiklave, which is what the Lion did the last time around. Althou, Reborn Glacier Rain as an artifact knife (Zenith Caste Book) would be an artifact that works for VBoS and CMoS.<br>~[[Haku]] who does agree that there are ways to shut down Protocols, one of which is to KILL or disable members of the troup.
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| − | ::: Peh. Last fight, the Lion used exactly two SMA Charms, one of them only once to stop a one-hit special effect. CMoS Form was useful for pre-fight power-up, but he could have fought the rest of the fight just as well with Unfurling Ebon Lotus; he had the mana. The fight might have gone differently, if only due to the Rune, which is a bizarre effect to bring into an arena. The reason you see SMA is only because there are more SMA Charms than all the other high-Essence combat Charms combined. - FrivYeti
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| − | :<i>you're using sequential charm disruption -as- an attack vs one of the solars' charms</i> - I'm fairly sure that while you are using SCD to affect a Charm, you aren't technically <i>attacking</i> it. In the meantime, even if it is an attack - if the Charm (rather than the Solar) is the target - can the Solar use HGD to block an attack not directed at him? - [[szilard]]
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| − | ::The same way you could jump in front of someone to HGD a bad effect/attack away. I'm not even going to guess what happens when someone tries to SCD a HGD... ~ [[haku]]
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| − | :::Oh, right! He just needs to jump in front of the Charm he's using... Bah! That makes no sense. I just don't consider this an attack in any meaningful sense if it is directed at a Charm itself. -[[szilard]]
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| − | Has anyone given thought to the fact that the fight is taking place in a shadowland, where technically, the Lion is still -dematerialized-, but can interact as normal with the solars? Which means charms and effects that work on dematerialized beings WOULD work on him. And no, there wouldn't be any dematerializing effects available to both sides. ~ [[Haku]]
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| − | :Because of the way he's bound into his armor, the Lion is the only Deathlord that is actually naturally materialized. - [[Hapushet]]
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| − | ::Odd... that I didn't know... but isn't that in Creation thou and not in the underworld/shadowland? ~ [[Haku]]
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| − | ::: I'm not sure what the difference is. He's naturally material. That means he's material everywhere. In the Underworld, and in Creation at night, there is no such thing as "dematerialized" - as a spirit realm, it's pretty much all on the same plane of existence. But that's irrelevant to the Lion, because he's material anyway. - [[Hapushet]]
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| − | That reminds me. Autochthonians mentions that the Lion can use the Death in Life Path from the PG - the Arcanos designed for Ghost-Blooded use - because he's naturally materialized. Under the circumstances then, I think he probably should start out with Lower Soul Ascendant for his stat boosts in the opening round: 60 motes for +10 Dex, or 7 motes and 1 Willpower for +10 Str, +10 Dex and +10 Stamina? He'll have to act as though he's suffering the a Deliberate Cruelty Limit Break... but who will be able to tell the difference? - [[Hapushet]]
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| − | :There's only one small problem, he's a ghost and his po isn't bound into the same body as him, which is required for that arcanoi to work... so, it wouldn 't really work. ~ [[Haku]]
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| − | ::The fluff text describes it that way, but the mechanics certainly don't seem to demand it, and Autochthonians says flat out he can use the Charms in the path. Moreover, just because he's a ghost doesn't mean he - as a Deathlord, and one suffering special torments from a Malfean to boot - lacks a connection to his po. I could easily see a justification for the idea that part of a Deathlord's special ghostly status involves tying them to their lower souls; it would explain why they maintain so much of their "Exaltedness," as it is the po that is the repository of the shard during life. I'd say, given the explicit exception granted him in E:Au, that he should be able to pull the trick off. - [[Hapushet]]
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| − | :::If you say so... mind you, if he can use all the charms in that tree, that would mean he can pull off Restless Spirit Soujourn and seperate his 'body' and 'soul'... ~ [[Haku]] whose like being all snipish... -_-;
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| − | :::: Don't see any problem with that; it's probably the only way for his soul to get out of the armour, however briefly. Besides, the Death in Life path is six Charms long, and two of them are Po based. - FrivYeti
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| − | No good can come of disobey your Neverborn master in attempting to... bypass his punishment. ~ [[Haku]]
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