Difference between revisions of "Capric/Randomthoughts"

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So, was thinking about social combat and the lack of good gradations for it.  The alternate tickless social combat system over on fixalted is pretty cool.  Although I would prefer to keep the tick based system even though I know it doesn't make as much sense.  But I did rather like the sort of gradations that they had for inspiring different effects, and I certainly liked that there was a little bit more added depth to intimacies.  I like that!  I also like that they were linked to virtues.  More things should be.
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This is place I can put up random crap for use between computers.
  
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Now add this in the the previous version of the page, where I was thinking about alternate systems for essence-based combat.  And my sort of general thoughts about alternate ways of handling wounds in Exalted (note: this is almost certainly more work than it's worth, but is fun to think about).
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Firstly, on the problem of "meta-charms"
  
 +
Meta-charms are those that affect people's ability to use charms.  They are very problematic, to say the least.  Effects which grant willpower, essence, or charm activations or nullify other people's use thereof are all basically meta-charms.  Meta-charms are strong against other essence users, which makes them the strongest charms in general--non-essence users in Exalted are only worth considering on very large scale.
  
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Finally read spirit of the century and I do like how they implemented aspects.  Also finally read aaron peori's bit about how he handles intimacies (which is indeed modeled on aspects).  I like it.
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So what's the problem?  The problem is that when various meta-charms interact, they do so very haphazardly.  Physical combat is very well defined, with lots of modifiers to take into account.  Social combat is also well defined (in 2e, anyway).  But essence combat is not; the closest I've seen was FF's shaping rules... and even that wasn't really essence combat.
  
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The key bit is that you may invoke other people's intimacies to give them a penalty, and that intimacies may be fairly trivially destroyed, although doing so gives you stress, which eventually makes you do stupid stuff, and gives you limit.  This is a good thing.  It also makes virtues scale lineraly in terms of benefit, rather than quadratically.  Also a good thing.
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There needs to be some sort of framework for meta-charms, and how essence effects interact.  And it needs to be interesting.
  
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The bad part is that it ties very heavily into willpower, which I don't particularly like.
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So, question: are there existing hints on how this interaction should be modeled?
  
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...
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Well, yes. The most common type of metacharms in 1st ed canon material are those that grant the user the ability to use MORE charms or effects. Most exalt types have a way to get more will and more essence quickly.  How this happens is arguably the most defining thing about an exalt type, as it truly defines their in-combat behaivor.
  
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Another thought:
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Unfortunately, this was not very well thought-out in 1st ed (and less so--maybe--in 2nd), and these sorts of effects are granted very early, and have very few amusing restrictions on them.  For a consistent and sensical treatment, this would need to be changed.  Stunting is the generic way that all exalt types may regen essence and willpower.  And this is a good thing, as stunting is good.
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*Characters regain or lose 1 temporary willpower per restful night until they are at normal maximum.
 
−
*Dice from channeling virtues is +4.  Number of times is still (rating) per story.
 
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*There is no roll to avoid acting against virtues, and any virtue at 2 or above compels action. 
 
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**If the character goes with the compulsion, roll (virtue).  This is the number of willpower you regain, and may take you above normal maximum.
 
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*All intimacies are linked to a virtue.  The number of that type of intimacies you may have is equal to that virtue. An intimacy may be taken more once.  Divisions:
 
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**Valor: Duties or Vows
 
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**Compassion: Passions
 
−
**Temperance: Taboos
 
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**Conviction: Ideals or Beliefs
 
−
*Make all intimacies behave like virtues, both positive and negative.  Except:
 
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**Exalts may spend a willpower ''or'' gain 1 limit to ignore an intimacy.
 
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**Intimacies have a strength of 1 for the purposes of regaining willpower.
 
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**Ignoring an intimacy counts as a scene spent reducing it. 
 
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**An intimacy may be invoked no more than once per session. There's no limit on how frequently it may compel, though each intimacy may only restore willpower once per session.
 
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**Only one intimacy may be invoked or compelled at a time.
 
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*Motivation also acts as an intimacy of normal strength which may be invoked an unlimited number of times, and which may not be reduced.
 
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*All servitude, emotion, compulsion, and illusion tagged effects are considered intimacies for their duration
 
−
**Strength for regaining willpower is (attack successes)/2 or (willpower needed to resist), whichever is higher.
 
  
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----
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As far as affecting others go, the typical approach taken now is to make them "tag" effects, in that they just automatically happen when you hit someone.  This has the advantage of using existing combat mechnics (which, are, again, well-defined).  It his the disadvantage of creating "instant win" attacks that end combat on sucessful hit.  This removes a lot the sliding scale from combat, especially high-essence.
  
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Mutations do
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Hm, perhaps an expansion of the intimicies to something like essence effects could be useful.  That would make essence effects less "absolute", which I think is a good thing. After all, if characters can break the reality of the loom easily, why shouldn't they be able to break the magic of another?
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:Cost 1 bp per at character creation.  This may be offset with harmful mutations point for point.
 
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:Cost 3xp per out of character creation (giving them a low xp-bp ratio)
 
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:Wyld-based mutations count against the total amount of wyld-ness which a character may have before becoming too Wyld to live in creation.
 
−
:Are assumed to give social drawbacks in some place, as wyld mutants are not that popular.
 
−
:Wyld-based mutations give some sort of drawback when going up against Raksha?
 
  
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Mutations can
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This implies another ability that deals with magic resistance.
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:Give ''extreme'' synergy, as they are typically persistent effects which stack with everything else
 
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:Drastically alter the utility or functionality of a character
 
  
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Mutations should
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Hm, another thing to think about is keeping the dice sane. Social combat has the benefit of being totally seperate from physical combat.  Essence stuff either needs to be very, very dice-light or somehow be seperated from other types of combat.  I do not want to have to be rolling or checking 5 things every time an attack is rolled.
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:Not reward heavy specialization--increased spending should not give higher point effeciency.
 
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:Rely on synergy
 
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:Scale approximately similar to an ability.
 
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::There are 4 levels to mutations, 5 levels to skills.  It costs 18xp to get a max level mutation (and they typically have drawbacks!), and 23xp to get a max-level nonfavored skill.  So the two should have approximately similar benefits.
 
  
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----
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Associated ideas: Weapons of the Gods! Astrology! Intimicies! Status Effects!
  
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Artifact songs!
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Need to re-read exalted 2 core, I think.  The "shaping" keyword is probably significant, and an expansion of that keyword is probably the basis for a lot of this.
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*Must be sung ''to'' someone in order to transfer them.
 
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*Can only be held in special chambers generally if not attuned by anyone.  Some can be held anywhere though!
 
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*Sometimes require mote commitment, but also require the committement of weird stuff.  Committing willpower, intimacies, virtues and other things is not unheard of!
 
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*Are crafted using craft:air, usually.  Craft is capped by performance in this case!
 
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*Magic materials are consumed to get that perfect sound.
 
  
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----
 
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Crafting redesign.  Crafting is a pain in the ass and generally clunky.  There should be some sort of unified rules for crafting.  I don't like how it is now!  But I do like the 5 crafts. 
 
  
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So!  I propose:
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<br>
  
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'''Abilities'''
+
Hm, after further consideration, perhaps this is not so much of an issue in 2e after all.  2e had the foresight to provide mechanics for otherwise undefined charm-vs-charm interactions: it comes down to a roll-off.  Several 2e charms already have explicit modifiers to this roll.  Knowing this, perhaps metacharms are not necessarily that bad.
  
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*Craft: Fire
+
Metacharms alter the rate and applicability of normal charms.  They therefore change the power scaling of exalts drastically.
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*Craft: Wood
 
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*Craft: Water
 
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*Craft: Air
 
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*Craft: Earth
 
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*Craft: Essence-- used for all artifacts or basically anything else which requires "magic".
 
  
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The general method is that any crafting project will have at least one of these as the applicable skill.  Esoteric crafts will use the lower of two or three abilities.  For example:
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Let's think about the implication of developed metacharms to scaling.  Power scaling in exalted comes from:
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*Fleshgrafting: Water, Wood
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*charm power
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*Genesis:  Water, Wood, and Essence
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*equipment power
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*Clockwork: Fire, Air
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*tactical application
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*Magitech: Fire, Air, Essence
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*strategic application
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*Glamour: Wood and Earth
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*charm synergy
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*Fate: Wood, Earth and Essence
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*equipment synergy
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*Moliation: Fire and Water
 
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*Necrotech: Fire, Water, and Essence
 
  
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Any craft roll which is craft:essence applicable is considered an "artifact" roll.  Those for which craft: essence is not applicable is considered a "mortal" roll.  The target for a craft roll is a single object.
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Application effects are up to the player, natch, and don't really bear examination, other than they must exist as important factors.  Equipment power and synergy.... probably need consideration, but not right now.  Metacharms, however, drastically affect charm power and synergy.  Hm.
  
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'''Attributes and Phases'''
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2 other thoughts: metacharms ARE the critical factor in high essence conflict, and modifiers to the charm-vs-charm roll need to be very, very carefully monitored. and should probably be the general weak point of high essence MA.  Sids suck, after all.
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All crafting is made with two general rolls: the design roll and the build roll.  The design roll is an (intelligence + craft) roll, and the build roll uses the lowest of perception, intelligence, or dexterity (if exalt is the sole crafter).  The design roll must always precede the build roll.    Crafting rolls have unusual botching rules: if the roll fails, it is considered a botch if there are any 1's rolled, regardless of any automatic successes granted.
 
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Furthermore, artifact crafting is done in two stages (making 4 rolls all in all).  First, base item is crafted; then additional enchantments and magics are placed upon it.  This is done in the following order:
 
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*mortal design
 
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*artifact design
 
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*mortal build
 
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*artifact build
 
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'''Intervals'''
 
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Crafting intervals vary per project.  Possible intervals are:
 
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*miscellenous action (5 ticks, no cooperation possible)
 
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*1 minute (60 ticks)
 
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*5 minutes (dramatic action)
 
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*Hour (60 minutes)
 
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*Day (8 hours)
 
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*Week (7 days)
 
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*Month (4 weeks)
 
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*Season (3 months)
 
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*Year (5 seasons)
 
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*Decade (10 years)
 
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*Century (10 decades)
 
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*Millenium (10 centuries)
 
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*each additional millennium
 
−
 
 
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The default interval for a crafting project is a week.
 
−
 
 
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'''Design'''
 
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The design roll is a dramatic action, with success indicating a design has been made.  Artifacts generally do not assist in design.  Limited cooperation may be used for design rolls.  Characters know when a design roll merely fails, but characters believe a botched design roll has in fact succeeded.
 
−
 
 
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The base difficulty of the design roll for a mortal project is resources value of thing to be crafted.  A design roll is specific to a certain material and tool set.  Mortal crafts assume:
 
−
*Raw materials equal in value to end result value
 
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*Tool set equal in value to end result value.
 
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*Careful notekeeping.  Designs are complex, requiring (base difficulty) successes on an (intelligence + lore) to recall them completely.
 
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*Reference knowledge, expert, or material.  This is measured in terms of effective (intelligence + lore + specialty) pool, with excellencies explicitly raising this static value.
 
−
 
 
−
Modifiers to the mortal design roll:
 
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*Decrease design interval: +2 difficulty per step
 
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*Increase design interval: -1 difficulty per step
 
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*Decrease planned raw materials: +1 difficulty per step for base resources 1-3, +2 difficulty per step for base 4-5
 
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*Increase planned raw materials: -1 difficulty per step
 
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*Decrease tools to be needed: +1 difficulty per step for base resources 1-3, +2 difficulty per step for base 4-5
 
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*Increase tools to be needed: -1 difficulty per step
 
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*Interrupted during design: +1 difficulty;
 
−
**If no notes then it becomes +1 difficulty per interruption.  
 
−
*Existing design for same item: -2 difficulty if complete, -1 if incomplete or physical object only
 
−
**with same tools or raw materials: -4 difficulty if complete, -2 if incomplete
 
−
**with same tools and raw materials: no roll required if complete, -4 if incomplete
 
−
*Poor reference (pool less than 5): +1 difficulty
 
−
*Excellent reference (pool greater than 10): -1 difficulty
 
−
*Superb reference (pool greater than 22): -2 difficulty
 
−
 
 
−
The base difficulty of the design roll for artifacts is:
 
−
*art 1: difficulty 3
 
−
*art 2: difficulty 5
 
−
*art 3: difficulty 8
 
−
*art 4: difficulty 13
 
−
*art 5: difficulty 21
 
−
 
 
−
An artifact design roll is requires and is specific to:
 
−
*a specific base mortal item of resource value equal to artifact level
 
−
*raw materials equal to artifact level consumed per artifact build roll
 
−
*a number of exotic components equal to artifact level
 
−
*a workshop equal in dot value to artifact level
 
−
*careful notekeeping.  Designs are complex, requiring (base difficulty) successes on an (intelligence + lore) memory roll to recall them completely.
 
−
*Reference knowledge, expert, or material.  This is measured in terms of effective (intelligence + lore + specialty) pool, with excellencies explicitly raising this static value.
 
−
 
 
−
Modifiers to the artifact design roll:
 
−
*Decrease design interval: +2 difficulty per step
 
−
*Increase design interval: -1 difficulty per step
 
−
*Poor base item (lower resource value than artifact level: +2 difficulty
 
−
*Fine base item (greater resource value than necessary): -1 difficulty
 
−
*Lower quality workshop planned: +2 difficulty per step
 
−
*Higher quality workshop planned: -1 difficulty per step
 

Revision as of 14:18, 6 June 2007

This is place I can put up random crap for use between computers.

Firstly, on the problem of "meta-charms"

Meta-charms are those that affect people's ability to use charms. They are very problematic, to say the least. Effects which grant willpower, essence, or charm activations or nullify other people's use thereof are all basically meta-charms. Meta-charms are strong against other essence users, which makes them the strongest charms in general--non-essence users in Exalted are only worth considering on very large scale.

So what's the problem? The problem is that when various meta-charms interact, they do so very haphazardly. Physical combat is very well defined, with lots of modifiers to take into account. Social combat is also well defined (in 2e, anyway). But essence combat is not; the closest I've seen was FF's shaping rules... and even that wasn't really essence combat.

There needs to be some sort of framework for meta-charms, and how essence effects interact. And it needs to be interesting.

So, question: are there existing hints on how this interaction should be modeled?

Well, yes. The most common type of metacharms in 1st ed canon material are those that grant the user the ability to use MORE charms or effects. Most exalt types have a way to get more will and more essence quickly. How this happens is arguably the most defining thing about an exalt type, as it truly defines their in-combat behaivor.

Unfortunately, this was not very well thought-out in 1st ed (and less so--maybe--in 2nd), and these sorts of effects are granted very early, and have very few amusing restrictions on them. For a consistent and sensical treatment, this would need to be changed. Stunting is the generic way that all exalt types may regen essence and willpower. And this is a good thing, as stunting is good.

As far as affecting others go, the typical approach taken now is to make them "tag" effects, in that they just automatically happen when you hit someone. This has the advantage of using existing combat mechnics (which, are, again, well-defined). It his the disadvantage of creating "instant win" attacks that end combat on sucessful hit. This removes a lot the sliding scale from combat, especially high-essence.

Hm, perhaps an expansion of the intimicies to something like essence effects could be useful. That would make essence effects less "absolute", which I think is a good thing. After all, if characters can break the reality of the loom easily, why shouldn't they be able to break the magic of another?

This implies another ability that deals with magic resistance.

Hm, another thing to think about is keeping the dice sane. Social combat has the benefit of being totally seperate from physical combat. Essence stuff either needs to be very, very dice-light or somehow be seperated from other types of combat. I do not want to have to be rolling or checking 5 things every time an attack is rolled.

Associated ideas: Weapons of the Gods! Astrology! Intimicies! Status Effects!

Need to re-read exalted 2 core, I think. The "shaping" keyword is probably significant, and an expansion of that keyword is probably the basis for a lot of this.



Hm, after further consideration, perhaps this is not so much of an issue in 2e after all. 2e had the foresight to provide mechanics for otherwise undefined charm-vs-charm interactions: it comes down to a roll-off. Several 2e charms already have explicit modifiers to this roll. Knowing this, perhaps metacharms are not necessarily that bad.

Metacharms alter the rate and applicability of normal charms. They therefore change the power scaling of exalts drastically.

Let's think about the implication of developed metacharms to scaling. Power scaling in exalted comes from:

  • charm power
  • equipment power
  • tactical application
  • strategic application
  • charm synergy
  • equipment synergy

Application effects are up to the player, natch, and don't really bear examination, other than they must exist as important factors. Equipment power and synergy.... probably need consideration, but not right now. Metacharms, however, drastically affect charm power and synergy. Hm.

2 other thoughts: metacharms ARE the critical factor in high essence conflict, and modifiers to the charm-vs-charm roll need to be very, very carefully monitored. and should probably be the general weak point of high essence MA. Sids suck, after all.

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