Discussions/SolarVsImmaculate

FallenAngel

thinker and I decided to make a comparison between an Immaculate and a Solar at experience levels that most player's will be likely to encounter, which means a young(they aren't around as long as the DB's) but battle focused Solar(around 150 XP) versus a seasoned Wild Hunt Immaculate(around 250 XP, because you aren't very likely to run into 5-Path Immaculates at every corner...).

We decided to do this because a lot of people were worried (you know who you are ^^) that at these exp. levels the Immaculate would kick the Solar's a**. This is simply not true and we're here today to show the opposite, that a Solar at this level, who stays focused won't have too much problems with an Immaculate who even is a lot more experienced than he is.

So without further ado the Immaculate, constructed by yours truly ^_^ (thinker will provide the Solar and as I know him I'm sure he will do an excellent job ^_^)

/WoodAspect

thinker

Oh and on Artifacts, I figure whatever you can get from your backgrounds is probobly the most accurate way to do it.

/SolarAdversary

thinker

The Solar should have a 32 dice autodefense (19 parry, 13 Dodge)

Fallen Angel

Lol, I guess I can muster something like a 14 dice autodefense with a +2 to +6 difficulty imposed, that's like nothing against that ^_^

thinker

+6 Diff and 14 Autodefense is about 26 dice worth maybe a little more nothing to sneeze at. But correct me if I am wrong, some of that relys on Hurricane Combat Method no?

FallenAngel

5 dice of the 14, yes ^^

thinker

So once the Immaculate activates it, if the Solar can wait him out through the rounds of multi-attacks (Most of all he can probobly catch on his scene long defneses), your defense will drop off, leaving you with the uncomfortable choice of bringing it back up (for more motes, and health levels) or living without it... :)

FallenAngel

That's about it, yeah ^_^\\ Lol, my only hope of even harming you is attack spamming anyways, since my attack pool is pretty low ^_^

thinker

So for Examples sake, what Charms would the example Immaculate want to start the fight having up? And how many motes would that consume?

Assuming that the Solar would want (in an ideal situation)

Five Fold Bulwark Stance (5/1) Flow Like Blood (5/1) Increassing Strength Excerise (12) Whirlwind of Searing Blows (7/1)

Total = 29 motes, 3 willpower

(Leaving him with 34 motes and 4 willpower)

Gives him an Auto-Dodge of 13 dice, and Autoparry of 19 Dice and attack stats of;

Acc 16, Dmg 18L, Spd 13

He may take two melee actions each round at his full dice pool without splitting his action.

thinker

Yeah, what is the attack pool on this Immaculate?

FallenAngel

The Wood Anima Ability(3 motes) Air Dragon Form(5 motes) Defense from Anathema Technique(6 motes, 1 Willpower) Strenght of Stone Technique(2 motes) Wind Armor Technique(5 motes)

for 21 motes 1 Willpower, leaving 29 motes and 5 Willpower

thinker

Tangental Combat Note (For those interested in the point)

If this Solar was a bit older and wiser, he would have Steel Devil Style, and make attack spaming a highly uncomfortable proposition. In order to achive this he would need 6 more Charms (6 x 8 = 48 xp) brining him aproximatly 50 xp behind the Immaculate instead of 100.

Now back to your actualy shedules comparison.

thinker

The Wood Anima Ability(3 motes)

3 motes b/c of high breeding right? Lets him add his Essence (4) to one dodge per turn or all dodges?

Correct, 3 motes b/c of high breeding. Essence to one dodge per turn, or if he has no dodge pool, gives him a dodge action of Essence dice. - Fallen Angel

Air Dragon Form(5 motes)

+5 dice to any dodge or ranged atack right?

Right. --- FallenAngel

Defense from Anathema Technique(6 motes, 1 Willpower)

Raises the difficulty to hit by 4 for any Charm enhanced attack (All of them in this case b/c of Whirlwind of

Searing Blows)

Correct. - FallenAngel

Strenght of Stone Technique(2 motes)

Raises Strength and Stamina by 1 each no?

Yup. - FallenAngel

Wind Armor Technique(5 motes)

Raises the Difficulty of ranged attacks by 5... anything else?

Nope, it raises my Bashing and Lethal soak by 5 each. I'd probably turn the rest on when the combat starts ^_^ - FallenAngel

(Just as a question of personal curiosity, at what point - in XP - would you say that Immaculates being to operate more in their true capacity?)

Depends. You can make one that is very good at like 600 but won't be top efficient when reaching thousand+ or you can make one that starts working great at like 800+ and will develop with top efficience ^_^ - FallenAngel

FallenAngel

My attack pool depends on what weapon I use

Hook Swords: 10 measly dice ^_^ Chakrams: 15 dice

thinker

So with a chakrum, you get an average of 7-8 successes, and the Solar's autodefense averages 15-17.

if the solar attacks while you have HCM up, he gets an average of 8 successes looses 5 I belive (The raised difficulty for a melee attack against you correct?) leaving 3 to cotend with your 7 avg success dodge (Assuming you are not activly dodging) leaving him 4 successes behind.

So on a single attack he is more likely to hit you than you are to him him, but still his odds are pretty poor.

(And that is assuming you are doing something else with your action.)

thinker

If the solar attacks while you DONT have HCM up, he gets an average of 8 successes loses 5 I belive (The raised difficulty for a melee attack against you correct?) leaving 3 to cotend with your 4-5 avg success dodge (Assuming you are not activly dodging) leaving him 1-2 successes behind.

The raised difficulty of a non-charm-enhanced attack against me is only 2. - FallenAngel

2 vs melee or Ranged?

Melee AND ranged ^_^. I don't intend to use anti range charms. - FallenAngel

(All his attacks are Charm Enhanced - Whirlwind of Searing Blows)

So he does not have a bad chance of nicking you about once in every 3 attacks, but still not great.

(And that is assuming you are doing something else with your action.)

FallenAngel

BTW. what's your soak?

My soak is 18 Bashing and 17 Lethal

BTW. The soak is pretty low for an Immaculate actually, but he's using Air Dragon Style so that's to be expected ^_^

thinker

My soak? Pathetic;

Chain Shirt 4L / 4B

This guy is a dancer. Relies on not gettng hit.

Doh! Pansy the Solar Dancer, looks a little flimsy compared to Brutus the Elemental Anhilator.

Only problem is Pansy the Solar Dancer is really, really fast.

thinker

His Hooked Diaklaves allow him to make a second Melee attack each round at his full dice pool, so that one wont benifit from the Wood Aspect ability. That changes the averages. Again assuming you are not taking a defensive action

HCM ON

1st Attack: Almost always a Miss)

2nd Attack: Aprox 1 in 3 to hit

HCM OFF

1st Attack: Aprox 1 in 3 to hit

2nd Attack: Simple hit on average

FallenAngel

Hmm, lol, just found a way to raise my soak to 22B 21L ^^

By using Earth Protection Form ^^

thinker

The largest problem that I can see that this Immaculate will run into can be expressed with a few statments;

Fallen please point out the errors and shore up by logic, b/c I am not the Immaculate Expert you are.

IF he does *not* use Hurricane Combat Method;

a.) he can go defensive (See below), but doing this constantly will eventuraly lead to him dying by lucky shots esspecaily on the second hit. Also the Solar could use Charm-Enhanced Attacks to force him to take damage or activate other defenses, eventualy wearing him out of Essence.

b.) he can count on his peristants to protect him, and go offensive (see below), however the Solar Exalted will nickle and dime him to death inflicting a Health Level every few turns.

Full Defensive;

Activly taking dodges / parries. Problem with this is, it leaves him no action to attack, thus meaning that the Solar Exalted will eventuraly win by sheer luck (If you never attack then sooner or later an oponent who keeps attacking you will get lucky, b/c you will never win)

Using Charms to shore up defenses and attack a little. Problem with this. Attacks are too weak to hurt the Solar Exalted, and he is bleeding your Essence.

Offensive;

The Immaculate's regular attacks are too weak to have any reasonable hope of hitting the Solar Exalted through his defenses, so the Immaculate uses things such as Wrathful Winds to get an automatic hit. Problem with this the Solar Exalted uses his (cheaper) Perfect Defenses to keep it off his back while Nickle and Diming the Immaculate to death with non-Charm enhances attacks.

By non-Charm enhanced attacks I mean attacks that are not enhanced by a per attack mote cost, not attacks that will ignore DfAM, all of the Solars attacks are effected by this Charm due to his Whirlwind of Searing Blows.

The with HCM section to follow.

FallenAngel

Yup, everything correct so far ^_^

thinker

With HCM the short term looks alot better for the Dragon-Blooded;

He can attack many times and activly defend, plus his defenses are stronger.

While HCM is up the Solar Exalted will very likely not hit him even on his passive defense and certainly not if he is active.

The problem is that his attacks are less than half as powerful as the Solar Exalted's defeneses, so even with five attacks per round the chance of scoring a hit is very low.

Supplimenting this with powerful attack charms like Wrathful Winds will simply bleed him of Essence as the Solar can block one for one with his (cheaper) perfect defenses.

Either way the Solar can simply defend and wait for the HCM to end and then repeat... either the DB will run out of Essence fueling HCM (Allowing the Solar to bring in his combo) or slowly be wittiled down by his non HCM defenses that are too weak to keep the Solar forever (Though this *will* take some time).

thinker

There are probobly some Immaculate cunniness that I have overlooked, but from this point you can conclude the following;

1.) The 250 Immaculate is far from a push over, it will take many, many Turns to kill him, the Solar will burn through most of his Essence Pool, and he must really fight taticaly, not panicing and going for a quick cool or loosing his head.

2.) The Solar will eventualy almost inevitibly win, its a matter of efficeny combined with almost impenetrable defenses; HCM is an amazing Charm, but it only lasts a few turns, FFBS and FLB last a whole scene, anyone that relies on HCM will eventualy run out of Essence (Something Solars have an abundance of) unless you make a mistake and rush things by uselessly burning your own Essence reserves to nothing.

FallenAngel

"Either way the Solar can simply defend and wait for the HCM to end and then repeat... either the DB will run out of Essence fueling HCM (Allowing the Solar to bring in his combo) or slowly be wittiled down by his non HCM defenses that are too weak to keep the Solar forever (Though this *will* take some time). "

The Immaculate will go down even faster if you consider that HCM inflicts a lot of damage on him, he can use it 2 times tops(and WILL break down at the end of the second time). I'd estimate the time he can hold his own against the Solar to be around 8-10 rounds.

thinker

8-10 rounds using HCM and desparatly trying to win right? If he's trying to draw it out for some reason (Like Help is on the way) I calculated the averages at something like 35-39 turns before the statistics caught up with him.

FallenAngel

"8-10 rounds using HCM and desparatly trying to win right? "

Yeah.

"If he trying to draw it out for some reason (Like Help is on the way) I calculated the averages at something like 35-39 turns before the statistics caught up with him. "

Seems to be pretty accurate. If he goes defensive and relies on his dodge and soak he could hold out quite some time, though the winner will still be clear all the time ^^

thinker

Just as a side note;

(And I am not trying to be snippy or target anyone personaly, so please no one take offense)

)

Sometimes I think that Fallen is such a good tactican esspecaily with Immaculates that people are blowen away by his examples and miss sometimes what he is saying;

As far as I can tell the point that he trys to make is that once they reach a certain point of experiance (600-1000ish) Immaculates can be a danager to *any* Solar, no matter how powerful and you will *never* just sweep one using proper tactics under the rug, it will always be a fight that your life was theatened in, and there is a chance (Of variying magnatude) that you will die.

Often people get the wrong idea and conculde that Immaculates at any level of Xp are superior to comparible Solar Exalted.

Just something I have noticed.

)

FallenAngel

You're the only one that understands me thinker ^^

tld

Great job guys!! Absolutely cool way of working this into the forums and making your points. A very mature way of handling a debate I might add. I am, impressed.

Why did you choose the path(for the Immaculate) that you did? Why not some other path? (I realise this could come into a yes/no 'which is the best 5dragonpath'-thing but I'm not trying that, I just want your honest opinion)

FallenAngel

If I were to choose ONE and only one Style(which was the case in this exp. scenario) I would ALWAYS choose Air. Always. Why? It is THE most self contained Martial Arts Style of them all. It's form charm will boost your defense and offense. You can go invisible (which also helps a lot in combat), you've got an extra action charm, you've got several offensive powers like Wrathful Winds and Thunderclap Kata which are usefull against single as well as multiple enemies, you're can get immune to surprise and you've got a lot of movement enhancing stuff. Lastly, never underestimate Hurricane Combat Method.

Air might not be the "best" path, but it certainly is the most self contained ^^

thinker

Again I agree with Fallen, Air is the most complete path by itself.

CrownedSun

Veryyyy interesting, and about what I'd expect. I've seen my Solars nail Immaculates:P Hell, a DB (not sure on the exact XP count, but up there) and a 150xp Solar, working together, managed to bring down a Master of Water-form (that was about all he had...)

For the record, I tend to get frustrated at Fallen not because I think he's saying Immaculates kick ass but because me and him have pretty radically different rules interpretations for a lot of things:P

I think he'll back me up on that:P

• grins*

Clebo

Hi there!

First, I'd like to say that I like the idea of this.

Now, there is room to suggest improvement and some tactics discussion. I believe that CoCT throw is quite useful when battling DBs because they often rely heavily on dodging to survive. Also, if the DB was Air instead of Wood, then he could try to stay out of melee range with his superior mobility and try to throw those Infinite Jade Chakrams, relying on luck and ping damage to win the battle. If things get to close, I'd recommend Cloud-Threading to get out of the harvesting-like melee Solar.

Thinker, would your Solar manage this alternate tactic?

Smiles, Clebo

FallenAngel

I think I can answer that for thinker. ^^ Yes, he could. You see, the attack pool of the Immaculate in question just isn't high enough to have a hope of getting hits in consistently(and to get a high attack pool and still be able to defend yourself you'll need multiple paths). Furthermore to keep distance between the Solar and himself he'd have to use movement enhancing powers(or HCM) which would burn his essence even faster. The Solar just waits till he burns out and then goes in for the finish. Not very advisable ^^

As a side note: CoCT is usefull against normal DB's but practically useless against a buffed Immaculate ^^

thinker

Actualy I was origonaly considering using the Cascade of Cutting Terror and a Thunder Hatchet, but I went with a Melee guy to demonstrate the most common Solar tactics used in actual games.

Also beware, CoCT is powerful but there are Dragon-Blooded counters, Vengful Gust Counterattack, and a Charm that adds your Thrown to the Difficulty to hit are both asty, observe;

Solar Exalted

Dex 5 Thrown 5 (+3 With my Weapon)

Orich. Lighting Torment Hatchet (Ac +3)

Valor Gamble (+3)

Total Dice Pool = 19

CoCT Total Dice Pool = 38

Average Successes = 19

Dragon-Blooded;

Takes a Parry (Aprox 14 dice)

Successes 7 Protection From Anathema 4 Windy Ranged Attack Deflicting thingie 5 Vengful Gust Counterattack (Dexterity + Thrown + Spec) 13 Dice Average 6 successes

Total 22

Congratulations you just CoCT terrored yourself. (Kinda)

Vengful Gust Counterattack costs 2 motes and the rest of them are persistant.

You could use a combo of Precistion of the Striking Raptor, but that adds about 5 successes leaving you with 2 additionals

LTH DMG 4L + 3 Strength + 4 (ISE) + 2 (Additional Suc)

= 13L compared to his 17L soak.

This puts you at a cost of 15 motes, 1 willpower for .5 Health Levels of damage. Not efficent.

I hope that answers your question!

thinker

As for the Immaculate part. Please see FallenAngel's extremly good answer above.

Two other points;

1.) A good alternate strategy might have been Archery. Built properly with Armor-Percing Arrows, Accuracy Without Distance and Rain of Feathered Death, the Solar Exalted could have done some ugly harm.

2.) Make no mistake about what you are seeing. Immaculates are Celestial Level combatants, they have the same Charm costs as a Lunar, and with Breeding 5 often have as much Essence as a comparable Sideral until Esssence 5. It is nothing short of a testament to the Titanic might of the Solar Exalted that this pup, with 100 less XP is virtualy assured of victory against the more experianced Immaculate. Also bare in mind that this Solar Exalted makes no mistakes, if he had used poor tactics he would be dead;

Probobly in one of two ways;

1.) The Immaculate catches him with weak defenses, and he is ripped to peices by 20-30 chackrums in a single Turn, that kill him instantly beacuse Pansy the Solar Dancer has crappy soak.

2.) The Immaculate catches him 1-2 times with Wrathful Winds, eitehr b/c he has not enough motes / willpower to SSE or HGD or beacuse he has already used another Charm, and again he is exploded from sheer wind pressure.

But with a 250xp Celestial Combatant compared to a 150xp one only the Solar Advantage is even allowing him to hold his own, the game would be broken if a mistake did not lead to pretty much instant death in a fight like this.

Clebo

Hi there!

FallenAngel, remember that Air anima power? It shouldn't be too difficult to stay out of range without spending that much essence. In fact, it would be the Solar that would have to spend essence to keep up, and come closer. And so, there is this constant offense beats a better defense if defense never gets the chance to strike. However, I agree that this would turn into a matter of stamina + endurance contest.

Thinker, your cost effectiveness reasoning is questionable, particularly when you already knew that the DB would learn the anti-range throw charms. In most cases, where one is completely unaware of the opposition, the point of redundancy is critical. Isn't those two throw charms worth the buy if it forces the opposition to spend much more effort and XP to counter it? That would be cost effective too. I always encourage my highly experienced PC players to go for multitude of combat strategies. A Solar's stregnth is versatility, and it should be used. If you rely on one tactic, then there you are bound to suffer the consequences of another specialist designed to counter your stategy. I don't know if the XP cost in this battle is enough to be versatile though.

According to the Vengeful Gust Counterattack description in my charm card file, VGC is used instead of a block or dodge attempt. So, in my book (I may be wrong) you're double dipping the charm. Each attack can only be blocked and dodged once. CoCT cannot be dodged, thus, the VGC is performed instead of the parry action.

Furthermore, that thingie that adds 5 dice against ranged is a little bit so-so in this discussion, as the Solar could also have a gadget that increases the dice to attack, which in turn would be doubled. When comparing the strength between Exalted, I always wish to remove the artifacts, because they tend to cover the weaknesses of non-solars, evening the odds, sometimes too much. However, the DBs, in game, should be better equipped than the Solars, but..

So, the way I understand things, the DB defense would be:

Protection From Anathema 4 Vengful Gust Counterattack (Dexterity + Thrown + Spec) 13 Dice Average 6 successes

10

With "unfair" artifact

15

Solar attack is still coming through.

Thus, I found the tactic to blast CocT (or combos thereof) in the very first turn, when those persistents are not up and running, is effective. Even more so if you have the initiative. Then, if the DB takes a few hits while putting those persistents up, you can stop throwing knives and take him in close combat, with the advantage that he's injured.

Smiles, Clebo

thinker

Its a scene long Charm not an artifact.

The example I constructed requires a Valor wager as well. Its possible that the Dragon-Blooded not be able to both parry and Vengful Gust, but that still leaves us.

Dex 5 Thro 5 Spec 3 Valor 3 Acc +3

Total = 19

x 2 = 38 (19 Suc)

DfAM = 4 VGCA = 6 Wind Shield Thingie = 5 The Shield that he was wearing = 2 (Forgot about that the first time)

Get through on 2 suceses .5 Health levels for 1 willpower, 5 motes and 1 temp Valor;

After three rounds you have made him bleed a little bit, and you are out of Valor.

Clebo

Oops, mu bad thinker. However, it does improve the tactic of win initiative and go for CoCT in the first turn. Then, Valor is not necessary.

Any comments on the double dipping issue?

Smiles, Clebo

thinker

It certainly would have been a different fight in the first round, but bare in mind that many of the DB's defenses are Reflexive, even if you had opened with your CoCT combo on turn one, he could have brought up his Wind Sheild, and VGC, reducing your successes by 11, at most you could have pull about 24 leaving you with 13, Strength 5 (Assuming you twinked for this tatic) giving you a base damage of 9, and a total dmg of 21L - 12L (His Soak with a chance to raise Charms) giving you 9 dice left or about 4 levels of damage.

For 15 motes, 2 willpower, 1 temp Valor.

Then he hits you 5 times with Hurricane Combat Method, and you with no persistant defenses, after raising Wind Dragon Form as his own action.

Lets say your combo includes shadow over water;

You have 13 dice he has 13 (Wound penalty from your attack), so he wagers Valor giving him 17 I belive;

He hits you 5 times for 2 successes;

His base damage is about 8L -4L for your soak is 4L ... 25 times.

100L, you die.

)

thinker

"Oops, mu bad thinker. However, it does improve the tactic of win initiative and go for CoCT in the first turn. Then, Valor is not necessary."

Yeah thats true, though I would include it anyway, since its so awsome when used with CoCT.

The problem is that Thrown as such little damage and if you lay out a big combo in turn one, without your own defenses up against a Wind Dragon Dude, you have better kill him or he will HCM you to death or you will have to use a perfect defence 4-5 times draining your Essence pool.

To be fair though this tactic is pretty effective against Wood, Earth and Fire stylists (CoCT them in Turn 1), Its not so good against Water and Air.

)

Its a very valid tatcical point though, I am glad you brought it up, since its the sort of thing that is important for people to know.

thinker

"Any comments on the double dipping issue?"

Personaly I would allow it, by saying that since it takes the place of a parry or a Dodge, the Dragon-Blooded can opt to take it in place of the Dodge they cannot do, but since it is not actualy a Dodge it is effective against the attack, and they can also take a parry.

However, I can see where it could easily be seen the other way. I am a pretty good tactican and don't really have a problem with the Parry, VGC combo myself, it can be defeated.

However in games where the Character's are not all combat gods or don't spend all day on the Forums honning their tactics :) I can see why it would not be allowed.

Conculsion;

I would probobly allow it, canonicaly, its probobly illegal.

)

FallenAngel

Let's see, the example character could have put together a defense versus CoCT of:

DfAM: +4 diff WSF: +4 successes VGC: 9 dice (VGC acts as a substitute for EITHER your dodge OR your parry for the turn you use it in. Obviously in this situation you'll sacrifice your dodge, since it's useless anyways) Normal Parry: 13 dice

Together: 22 dice + 4 sux + 4 diff makes 19 successes on average. So you will have quite some trouble going through this.

sabis

I'm w/ thinker on the VGC. it replaces either a dodge or a parry, and since you have the option to dodge and parry any attack. (but the CoCT turns dodge option off) Yes, it does. But since you are replacing a dodge action with another effect, i certianly don't see anything cannoical making this wrong.

Clebo

On the 100L issue Our examples are a bit off. Wind Shield is simple, so is DfAM, so is moving. I assume that the battle does not start 2' distance between the opponents. Am I wrong in this?Another very important point about the CoCT in the first turn tactic is to rely on your own Solar defense. A Solar can turn on a very good scene-long defense, under extreme pressure. The key is the reflexive nature of 5FBS. Say you hit him once or twice before he can really reach you the next turn. In my mind, not a completely unrealistic scenario, because it's kinda hard moving forward through a rain of knives. In the close combat turn, a Solar can activate 5FBS and full dodge, a pretty nasty defense. The following turn, he can activate FLB. If he feels safe doing that, even more scene-long charms can be relevant. As I understand the game, only Solars and Abyssal can activate their defenses without being unable to defend themselves while doing it. Therefore, a Solar can spend a turn or two, to try to injure your opponent before the close combat starts.

thinker

Air Immaculates attack at the same range that you do (They throw Chakrums), and even without Wind Shield Technique you are still only doing a couple of extra levels of damage, and in my example that lead up to the 100L, he had enough Ox-Bodies that it would not make a difference (That being 1, since it keeps him a -2 rather than Incap). Immaculates can raise their Defenses and defend themselves at the same time with the free reflexives manuver.

thinker - 08/22/2003 14:42:12

)

Clebo

On VGC double dipping I know only of one, remotely relevant ruling on this by Neph; Abyssal dodging. "Alas, Shadow of Blood, you cannot reduce dice, and then dodge with your own reflexive charm. However, death isn't that bad, my favorite corpse...".

Of course, critics will undoubtedly point out that it's about the same ability, and in the VGC case, it is another skill involved. When deciding issues like this, I'd like to go back one step and guess a bit. Why does the VGC say "instead of"? My guess is that they wanted to avoid the triple defense, where the DB can dodge, parry and use VGC. In my mind, this suggests that it's double dipping.

Also, nowhere do I see something about a perfect defence either. In effect, you're dodging an undodgable attack by sacrificing a dodge action. Consider the Lunar ranged LSA charm. Would VGC be able to defend against it in your games? Both parry and dodge are inapplicable here, and therefore can not be sacrificed.

Going back to the text "instead of a dodge or parry attempt" and argue forumite style. Since no dodge attempt can be made, it cannot be sacrificed.

VGC gets weirder the more I think of it. Is it possible to activate a reflexive dice adder, for one mote, and consider this a dodge attempt, only to sacrifice it with VGC, getting a pretty cheap and effective ranged dodge. Ligier (is that how they curse in Creation), why not assume that "or" means "and...or" as it does in philosophy and many other areas? That way, you can both parry and dodge using the VGC, pretty nifty, and all within reasonable interpretation :-)

Smiles, Clebo

thinker

"On VGC double dipping"

This is certainly a reasonable interpretation. Like I said I would probobly allow it, however in Cannon it is probably Illegal.

"VGC gets weirder the more I think of it. Is it possible to activate a reflexive dice adder, for one mote, and consider this a dodge attempt, only to sacrifice it with VGC"

This violates the one Activation per Instant rule.

FallenAngel

""Also, nowhere do I see something about a perfect defence either. In effect, you're dodging an undodgable attack by sacrificing a dodge action. Consider the Lunar ranged LSA charm. Would VGC be able to defend against it in your games? Both parry and dodge are inapplicable here, and therefore can not be sacrificed.

Going back to the text "instead of a dodge or parry attempt" and argue forumite style. Since no dodge attempt can be made, it cannot be sacrificed.""

We're talking about a theoretical dodge here that you COULD make (although since the attack can't be dodged it would be futile to do so). It's not that the attack forbids you to dodge, it's that even if you do it's completely useless ^^. That said, VGC IS NOT a dodge, but a redirection attempt through air pressure. It can be applied to undodgeable or unblockable attacks just fine(except if they are perfect/hit automatically).

Subject: @Solar-Immaculate experiment thinker - 08/22/2003 15:21:44

Or if they are immune to Enviromental interfearance. There are Charms that let you shoot right through VGC... its just that CoCT is not one of them.

Subject: @Solar-Immaculate experiment

• FallenAngel* - 08/22/2003 15:32:04

""Or if they are immune to Enviromental interfearance. There are Charms that let you shoot right through VGC... its just that CoCT is not one of them. ""

Again, I agree. Thankfully the charms that shoot through VGC are archery ones and as such don't have as high dice pools as CoCT ^^(although AWD is nasty).

---

Thx for putting it up for me, I guess I'll edit this thing when the thread hits 75. Enjoy ^^

- FallenAngel

Not a problem FallenAngel, you can continue the editing. Its a lot! ^_^ - BrokenShade

Thread full, discussion complete. Enjoy(man, this thing is big) ^^ I'll format the rest of the stuff when I find the time(thx Brokenshade) ^^

- FallenAngel