View source for Arafelis/DeadlyBeastmanForm

Ok, growing out of a <nowiki>discussion/debate/argument</nowiki> with [[szilard]]... Here we go.

== Deadly Beastman Form ==

The Charm continues to work as published; however, instead of granting the purchaser X attribute points and Y gifts, it grants them 5 points (for each purchase) to use on Deadly Beastman Form.

One point buys one of:

+1 Strength and +1 Stamina<br>
Either +2 Strength or +2 Stamina<br>
+1 Dexterity<br>
One dot in a Gift.<br>

A character's maximum Attribute bonus is equivalent to their Essence- so, for instance, a character with Essence 2 and Strength 2 can have a bonus of up to +2 in Strength, for a final attribute (in Deadly Beastman Form) as high as 4.  This limit may be increased by purchasing Gifts of Might and Grace.  A character may have no more dots in any Gift than they have dots of permanent Essence.  And finally, a character may purchase Deadly Beastman Form points with experience, bypassing the Charm- one point for 5 xp.

----
Dots in Gifts, you wonder?  What madness is this?

I am only too happy to share.

=== Gifts of the Chosen ===
<i>I am the Chosen of Luna.</i>

<b>Gifts of Might and Grace</b><br><i>My body is more powerful than my prey can imagine.</i>

Each dot of this Gift increases the maximum stat bonus the Lunar may purchase with Gift points by 1.  So, for instance, a Lunar with an Essence of 4 may normally buy up to 4 bonus points in any or all attributes with Gifts.  With one purchase of Gifts of Might and Grace, this limit is increased to 5 (but Might and Grace itself does not provide these bonus points).  Lunars of the Full Moon caste treat their Essence as one point higher to determine the number of times they may purchase Gifts of Might and Grace.

<b>Gifts of Nature's Resilience</b><br><i>My body restores itself faster than it can be broken.</i>

This Gift replaces the Lunar's natural healing time; times are given in an <nowiki>#;#</nowiki> format, with the first being how long it takes for the Lunar to heal their Stamina in levels of Bashing damage, the second being how long it takes for the Lunar to convert their Strength in Lethal levels of damage over to Bashing.  Note that a Lunar with many Bashing levels might still incur Lethal damage this way.  This healing is constant; divide the time by the appropriate Attribute to determine exactly when each level converts over, if relevant to the dramatic time being used.

 &bull;     Heal Stamina in bashing each hour; convert Strength in Lethal each day.
 &bull;&bull;    in ten minutes; in one hour
 &bull;&bull;&bull;   in one minute; in ten minutes
 &bull;&bull;&bull;&bull;  in one round; in one minute
 
Levels five and higher of this Gift would probably increase Strength and Stamina for the purposes of the Gift itself, or apply multipliers.  Increases to the Lethal healing rate should be relatively conservative.

<b>Gifts of Armoured Hide</b><br><i>My hide is tougher than any dragon's gilded jade scales.</i>

This Gift grants the Lunar additional natural soak, subject to the rules described in the Lunar typebook, and at higher levels offers bonus health levels representing the extreme durability of the Lunar.  The health levels are cumulative; the soak total is not.

 &bull;     2L/2B, and full Stamina (rather than half)
 &bull;&bull;    5L/5B and one additional -0 health level.
 &bull;&bull;&bull;   8L/8B and one additional each of -0 and -1 health levels.
 &bull;&bull;&bull;&bull;  10L/10B and one additional each of -0 and -1 health levels.

Higher levels of the Gift might modify the upper limit on a Lunar's natural soak, reduce damage after soak, or give many additional health levels.

<b>Gifts of Lunar Speed</b><br><i>I run faster than the breath in front of the fastest elk.</i>

This Gift grants the Lunar an initiative bonus, a bonus to their running speed, and a bonus to their Strength + Athletics total for purpose of their leaping distance.  All bonuses listed are cumulative.  In the case of the running speed bonus, it is a flat number that is added to the typical Dex + 12 yards (so a Lunar with one level of this Gift might be considered to have a running speed of Dex + 16 yards).  It is not added to the Lunar's walking speed, but is tripled for their sprinting speed and affects speeds based on running.  This new speed is the base speed, which multipliers affect as normal.

 &bull;     +2 Speed, +4 yards/turn, +3 leaping
 &bull;&bull;    +3 Speed, +6 yards/turn, +3 leaping
 &bull;&bull;&bull;   +4 Speed, +6 yards/turn, +4 leaping
 &bull;&bull;&bull;&bull;  +5 Speed, +8 yards/turn, +4 leaping

Higher levels of this Gift would make the Lunar still faster, possibly to the point of granting extra actions or the ability to always act during suprise rounds.

<b>Gifts of Rage</b><br><i>My righteous wrath carries me beyond the bounds of petty pain or weakness.</i>

Each level of this Gift reduces the Lunar's wound penalties by 1.  In addition, each level grants a bonus that applies per wound level (-0, -1, -2, -4) that the Lunar currently suffers from (although the Gift <nowiki>and/or</nowiki> Charms may have reduced the effective penalty even to 0).  So a Lunar with the first level of this Gift who had all their -0 boxes, all their -1 boxes, and one -2 box checked off would benefit from +3 Strength.

 &bull;     +1 Strength
 &bull;&bull;    +1 Accuracy and Speed
 &bull;&bull;&bull;   +1 L[[/B]] soak and an additional 1 point penalty reduction
 &bull;&bull;&bull;&bull;  1 mote (per wound level)/round


<b>Gifts of Fang and Talon</b><br><i>My claws cut moonbeams and my teeth spare not even ghosts.</i>

This Gift enhances the Lunar's natural attacks, granting as many sets of claws as the Lunar has limbs (or fewer, if desired) and a bite attack.  Note that the Lunar in some cases develops a relatively significant Speed bonus from their claws; this does not necessarily indicate claws several feet in length, but rather, enhancements the Lunar has perfected allowing them to use their natural reach to maximum advantage.  In the case of a Defensive bonus for Bite attacks, it represents the Lunar's ability to catch things in their teeth (backed by crushingly strong jaws.  While not explicitly the case, clever players should consider stunts which allow them to attack objects parried with their teeth.)  Lunars whose totem animals have other natural attacks, such as tusks, quills, or stingers, should work with their Storyteller to modify this Charm appropriately.  The Rate of these weapons is the Lunar's Wits for claws and Wits/2 for Bite.  The numbers presented are non-cumulative, but do stack with (add to) the effects of Lunar Charms granting claws or bite attacks.

These natural attacks are considered moonsilver for the purposes of Charms which affect moonsilver weapons.  At the second level of this Gift, the attacks may harm any creature the Lunar can percieve, even incorporeal spirits.  At the fourth, the Lunar may use his natural attacks as if they were Melee weapons (using the melee skill or Melee Charms as desired).

 &bull;     <nowiki>Claws: +1 Speed/+2 Accuracy/+4 Damage/+1 Defense    Bite: +0 Speed/+0 Accuracy/+5 Damage/+0 Defense</nowiki>
 &bull;&bull;    <nowiki>3 Spd/3 Acc/6 Dmg/2 Def    0 Spd/2 Acc/8 Dmg/0 Def</nowiki>
 &bull;&bull;&bull;   <nowiki>5 Spd/4 Acc/8 Dmg/3 Def    0 Spd/3 Acc/11 Dmg/1 Def</nowiki>
 &bull;&bull;&bull;&bull;  <nowiki>7 Spd/6 Acc/10 Dmg/5 Def   1 Spd/4 Acc/14 Dmg/2 Def</nowiki>
 
Additonal levels of this Gift would... kill things faster.


<b>Gifts of Grip and Balance</b><br><i>No obstacle will slow my pursuit.</i>

In addition to providing a base speed while climbing, each level grants an automatic success on Athletics tests for balance or acrobatics.  While in many cases this Gift at higher levels represents suction pads or similar effects, there are at least a few Lunars who simply develop remarkably agile joints and strong gripping claws to allow them their supernatural (at higher levels, almost freakish) abilities with this Gift.

 &bull;     <nowiki>1/2 run speed on vertical.  The Lunar must succeed at a Stamina + Athletics
 check each turn they're not moving or fall (possibly stunting to catch a lower clawhold.) </nowiki>
 &bull;&bull;    <nowiki>Full run speed on vertical, 1/2 run speed upside-down.  The Lunar must keep moving
 while upside down or risk falling, but may now stop normally on vertical surfaces.</nowiki>
 &bull;&bull;&bull;   <nowiki>Full speed, all inclinations.  The Lunar may now stop as desired regardless 
 of position.</nowiki>
 &bull;&bull;&bull;&bull; Full speed, all surfaces & conditions (a Lunar at this level of proficiency could theoretically fight standing 
 sideways on an ice cliff in a hot gale and would still have four automatic successes to avoid being unbalanced by their
 opponent.)

Additional levels of this Gift, if the Lunar were so inclined, would probably allow them to perform bizzare acts of acrobatics such as bounding up a cliff while avoiding falling boulders or leaping from vertical walls to hang on ceilings.

<b>Gifts of Wings</b><br><i>The winds themselves bear me to my prey.</i>

Fairly self-explanatory.

 &bull;     3x horizontal leap distances, 2x vertical, falling damage for the Lunar is halved.
 &bull;&bull;    True gliding (may soar on updrafts, suffers no falling damage, loses 1 vertical yard for every Dex + Essence 
 horizontal yards travelled)
 &bull;&bull;&bull;   True flight (at run speed; twice as draining over long distances as normal movement)
 &bull;&bull;&bull;&bull;  3x speed, only as draining as normal movement.

Additional levels of this Gift would probably improve the Lunar's speed and aerial acrobatic abilities.


<b>Gifts of the Seachild</b><br><i>I have mastered the secrets of the deepest seas.</i>

Aquatic Gifts.  Unfortionately, I cannot actually find rules for swimming just yet, so these may change.  Multipliers listed are non-cumulative.

 &bull;     Swim at run speed and hold breath Stamina x 4 minutes.
 &bull;&bull;    Swimming speed is doubled, and the Lunar gains amphibian gills.  Alternately, a Lunar (for instance, of
 a mammalian totem) may choose to increase the amount of time the amount of time they may hold their breath to (10 x the
 number of times they have purchased this Gift) times their Stamina in minutes.
 &bull;&bull;&bull;   3x, and the Lunar resists pressure as well as a creature of the deep and gains 1/2 their
 Essence in automatic successes on Athletics (Swim) checks.
 &bull;&bull;&bull;&bull;  4x, Full Essence in automatic successes on checks for Athletics (Swim), 1/2 Essence in automatic 
 successes on Sail and water or swimming -related Survival or Endurance checks.



<b>Gifts of Eye and Ear and Nose</b><br><i>I have seen the New Moon on starless nights.</i>

Sensory Gifts.  Each level grants +1 Perception while in beastman form, and expands one or more of the character's senses.  The character may choose one broadened sense per level taken, as per the Merit Special Sense on p 20 of the Player's Guide.  In addition to the typical options for the Merit, some new possible effects are detailed below:

Essence Scent: Choosing this effect requires the character to have taken at least one scent-expanding Gift and have an Essence of at least 4.  The character may scent Essence, allowing her to easily determine the location of any being with an Essence score of one or higher in the vincinity (typically Lunar's Essence x 4 + target's Essence x 3 in yards) who is not actively hiding himself.  The Night Caste ability, supressing all sensory impressions, works against this power, as do most Charms which improve Stealth; characters who wish to avoid detection and are not using such magic may roll Wits + Stealth at a base difficulty of his own Essence against the Lunar's Perception + Essence.  Different types of Essence may have different scents, as determined by the Storyteller (and number of successes the character rolls, if necessary).  Sidereals loathe Lunars with this Gift.

Invisible World: Choosing this effect requires the character to have taken at least one sight- or hearing- expanding Gift and have an Essence of at least 3 (2 for No Moons).  The character becomes able to see and hear dematerialized spirits, but this Charm grants no special facility for interacting with them physically.

Breath of Gaia: Choosing this effect requires the character to have taken at least one touch-expanding Gift.  The character percieves even the subtlest of breezes or atmospheric disturbances, and is able to pinpoint movement within their Perception in yards and generally detect movement out to their Perception x their Essence in yards.  Wound penalties apply directly to Perception for these effects, even if they would normally be negated by other Gifts or Charms.  Among other things, this Gift means that the character often suffers no penalty for visibility in melee combat, and could probably stunt dodging unseen attacks (even unseen ranged attacks) without much trouble.

<b>Gifts of Hecatoncheires</b><br><i>The hundred-armed has lent me his strength.</i>

Each level of this Gift subtracts 1 from multiple action penalties and imposes a base difficulty of +1 on the opposed combat actions of opponents whom the Lunar is engaged or attempting to become engaged in a clinch with.  On an opponent the Lunar has successfully clinched, this difficulty applies to all physical actions they take, and the Lunar inflicts a bonus die of clinch damage on such an opponent per dot of Gifts of Hecatoncheires.  The Gift manifests as one to three additional arms (or other prehensile appendages) per level, or as relatively obvious changes to the Lunar's existing arms (extra joints, reversible joints, excessively large hands, hyper-developed forearms and the like).

<b>Gifts of Fear</b><br><i>Even the mighty cower in my presence.</i>

Effects are cumulative.  The listed effect for each dot affect only those with a permanent Willpower equal to or less than the Lunar's Essence +2; characters with a permanent Willpower higher than this are affected by the previous dot's effects but may spend a temporary Willpower point to suppress them, and also by the cumulative effects of earlier dots (which they may not normally suppress with temporary Willpower).  In addition, the Lunar adds one automatic success per dot on intimidation attempts.

 &bull;     +1 difficulty to attack the Lunar or defend against his attacks.
 &bull;&bull;    Must make a Valor roll; failure means they may not attack the Lunar in melee and are at an additional 
 +1 to attack ranged or defend against his attacks.
 &bull;&bull;&bull;   Difficulty of the Valor roll increases by 1, and failure means the character may not attack the Lunar at all
 and the penalty to defend increases by 1.  Even if they succeed, the penalty to attack the Lunar is at +1.
 &bull;&bull;&bull;&bull;  Failure on the Valor roll means the character may not move (although they may activate 'hopping dodge'-type
 Charms to defend themselves).  The penalty to attack or defend against the Lunar increases by 1 even if the Valor roll
 succeeds.

<b>Gifts of Venom</b><br><i>My sting stops a dragon's heart.</i>

This gift grants a venom which increases in potency with each dot purchased.  At the first dot, the character may only deliver the venom with a bite; at the second, any natural attack, at the third, he may spit venom using Dex + his choice of Athletics, Archery or Thrown with a range equal to his Stamina x 4 in yards and an accuracy bonus equal to his Wits (a contact poison).  At the fourth, his blood itself is toxic (characters who deal one lethal level of damage or three or more levels of bashing damage to the lunar with a melee attack may reflexively attempt a dodge at a difficulty equal to the Lunar's Essence, or are affected).  The character may decide each round if his venom will be lethal or not; if so, it inflicts lethal damage and kills non-heroic mortals who fail their Resistance test.  If not, it inflicts bashing damage and only renders mortals unconcious or incapacitated with pain or vomiting.  Damage from this venom is not rolled and can only be soaked with Stamina and Charms.  Finally, each level of this Gift increases the Exalt's Sta + Resistance roll against poisons by 1 and reduces the damage dealt on a successful check by 1.

 &bull;     The venom is difficulty 2 to resist, inflicts 1 damage on a success and 3 on a failure, and has a duration of
 the Lunar's Stamina in minutes and a penalty of -1 (inflicted upon Exalts who fail their checks or mortals who 
 succeed).
 &bull;&bull;    Difficulty 3, 2 on success and 4 on failure, duration Stamina in minutes and penalty -2.
 &bull;&bull;&bull;   Difficulty 3, 2 on success and 5 on failure, duration twice Stamina in minutes with a -2 penalty.
 &bull;&bull;&bull;&bull;  Difficulty 4, 3 on success and 7 on failure, duration twice Stamina in minutes with a -3 penalty.

<b>Gifts of Silence</b><br><i>I make no sound, have no spoor and even the owl's eyes overlook my shadow.</i>

At each dot, Gifts of Silence adds 1 to the difficulty of Perception checks against the character (not just Awareness).  However, it does not (initially) make the Lunar capable of blatantly implausible feats- they must still be able to somehow conceal themselves (as with most Stealth checks) in order to benefit from this oppositional bonus.  This is a Gift not only of shapeshifting prowess, of artistic control of colour and texture- but also one of illusion and graceful misdirection.  As such, Changing Moons have a natural aptitude and may consider their Essence as one point higher to determine the number of times they may purchase this Gift.

 &bull;     By freezing in place, the Lunar may add half their Manipulation (rounded up) to the 
 difficulty bonus added by this Charm.
 &bull;&bull;    Deception and luck are often at cross-purposes, but the Lunar with this Gift wields 
both.  In a case where she would be discovered by an opponent's successful Awareness roll, she may reduce her bonus difficulty by 1 for the scene in order to re-roll her Stealth  check.  This may be done only once per such situation and is perhaps less useful than  it at first appears to eager would-be tricksters.  It works essentially as per a highly- specialized version of the Luck Merit (p XX, PG) 
 &bull;&bull;&bull;   The Lunar may now perform fantastic feats of stealth; sneaking between wolf-man guards 
in broad daylight, for instance.  By forgoing a dot of difficulty per sense (to a  minimum of zero), the Lunar may alter her sensory profile with masterful prowess- she may describe any stimulus to replace her natural one, and they may occur diffusely over her Essence in yards.  For instance, by sacrificing the three points of difficulty granted at this level, she might choose to seem to be the shadow of a cloud passing overhead accompanied by the scent of wildflowers and the distant chirping of birds.  Of course, if she were brushed up against, she would still feel like a giant <nowiki>fuzzy/scaly/feathery/etc</nowiki> beastial hybrid- unless she were to freeze and temporarily choose to feel like a cool breeze, of course.  The sensory stimulus she chooses may change on her initiative on any round.  Any Stealth check using this ability is made with Manipulation (not Dexterity), and anyone who might percieve her gains a number of automatic successes on their Awareness rolls equal to their Essence.  This effect is as much illusion as shapeshifting (and thus may be pierced by certain Charms or abilities).
 &bull;&bull;&bull;&bull;  Ghostlike in her movements, the Lunar floats through traps and passive sensors.  
For the purposes of pressure plates, tripwires, magical sensors and the like, the Lunar is considered a dematerialized spirit.  She is not actually immaterial and may choose to deliberately set off a sensor (and may be harmed by normal attacks), but this Gift provides no special awareness of such if they are hidden- merely the immunity of a paranoid illusioncasting shapeshifting master.


Gifts of Silence and Gifts of Fear probably need revision.


<i>I am the Chosen of the Moon.</i>

----

Note that these are not the only possible gifts, simply a sampling of the most common; players should work with their Storyteller to alter these Gifts or create new ones to fit their totem and concept.

Typically the first level or two of a Gift results in relatively minor physical changes to the hybrid, allowing much cross-sampling; an avian Lunar with Seachild or a simian Lunar with Wings.  Extensive development in a Gift, however, DOES reflect itself in the Lunar's beastman form- while nothing strictly prevents an ape-totem Lunar from developing true flight, other Lunars are likely to regard him as a chimera and his totem spirit is likely to become confused or even angry.  A Lunar may choose to manifest a lower level of a Gift than they actually possess, but must re-enter beastman form to change... and of course, as demigods themselves, it is not impossible for a Lunar to sire an entirely new animal species into being in his own chosen image, developing a close relationship with the new totem spirit he follows and creates.

=== Comments ===

Please comment!  Devising the mechanical systems to govern this took a fair amount of time, and of course, I fully expect strong criticsm from [[szilard]] to whom I owe some of the inspiration for this.  - [[Arafelis]] <i>spent entirely too much effort on this</i>

:I certainly wouldn't want to disappoint you. My initial concern is that it is too speed-bumpy and not free-form enough. Let me take the example of the Lunar in the Solar-focused game I'm playing. She's a magpie totem. Her Beastman form has four gifts that I can think of (Fluttering Wings, Soaring Pinions, the Perception adder, and the See Spirits bit). She hasn't bought DBT since character creation. For her to get to that point in this system, she'd have to invest 7 points in Gifts and be Essence 4. The 7 points wouldn't be a huge deal, but it seems a lot for, effectively, three powers. (She'd probably never use the enhanced smell/taste since it feels wrong as a corvid - currently she always focuses her ridiculous perception score on sight and sound for that reason). The Essence 4 is a bigger deal, since her character concept was based around being a spirit medium, and she wouldn't be able to have realistically started off with the Gifts needed to get to that point.



:Oh. A question: Can you purchase the Charm more than once or can you only purchase points after you first purchase the Charm?
-[[szilard]]

::The Charm may be purchased more than once, as per normal rules.  As for the Essence thing, you do have a point (although I consider Lunar starting Essence to be overcosted).  It's true that (most) corvids do not have a terribly good sense of smell, but the Gifts do encourage some small 'irregularities' in the Beastman Form to represent ''all'' animals consumed.  There are a few things I still need to put up for it. - [[Arafelis]] <i>was just struck by an idea</i>.

:::Okay. So, say I am an Essence 3 Lunar who starts with 3 levels of DBT. My DBT form can have +5 Strength, +5 Stamina, +5 Dex, and 5 dots of Gifts? -[[szilard]]

::::Yes.  If the original allowed one to purchase Horrifying Might more than once (which is essentially what this one does), this would be similar to having bought it twice during character creation (your 5 dots in Gifts are roughly equivalent to two and a half in the original).  It is ''slightly'' more powerful- you would have had +5 Dex, +3 in one and +2 in the other (or +5 in one, +4 in the other, and +3 Dex). - [[Arafelis]] <i>could probably fix that easily if it really bothers you</i>


Looks good. Don't have time to look at it in detail, but so far so good- [[Paladinltd]]

Not bad... but did you take the Gift system from Werewolf: the Forsaken? - [[Tiffa]]

:No (I actually haven't even ever read the Werewolf rules; this suprises even me), but I'm not suprised what I wrote here is similar to that.  The idea of path-based power is pretty common in WW games- I wish I could say I made it up from scratch, but I had haunting visions of Backgrounds and Paths floating in my head.  - [[Arafelis]]

''I agree with szilard - it's a cool system, but some of the gifts seem too weak. What I'd suggest is that rather than have the standard 5 levels of each Gift, you reduce it to just 3. So the flying gift might go : 1 dot, gliding. 2 dots, true flight. 3 dots, excellent flight. The Perception gift would go : 1 dot, gain wolf's scent and night vision. +2 perception. 2 dots, see dematerialized things and gain infra/ultrasound hearing. +4 perception. 3 dots, gain one "weird"/supernatural sense ( vibrations, Essence scent, heat vision, ultrasound navigation ). +5 perception. I know most Exalted advantages have five levels traditionally, but I really don't think you need five grades of "stick to walls".'' -- [[Xarak]]

:Hmm.  I've tried pretty hard to stay true to an equivalent power level; the five grades of 'stick to walls' give a noticable benefit at each level besides Climbing speed (ie, automatic successes).  The Gifts '''are''' less powerful per level (mostly) than they used to be- that's kind of the point.  The power is spread out further, and in some cases out of reach, preventing starting characters from possessing powers that put them at awkwardly different power levels or out of scope with non-Lunar Celestials in mixed games.  I have spoken against the Lunar Wound-Knitting Power gift before; I have a player with that in my game, and it's hard to create a dramatic challenge that will actually hurt her without offhandedly destroying my Solar player.  

::You can't find a way to damage someone without persistent and perfect defenses that isn't unfair to the guy who has them? The point is sort of that the Solar doesn't have to get hit, while the Lunar has significantly less say in the manner unless it's a Dex monkey, and even then the reflexive defense options are limited.

:::You're right.  Let me rephrase: I can't challenge my Lunar without putting her up against something that can wipe her out in a bare handful of rounds, because she bought healing as a defensive power without spreading out at all.  This means that she's either "perfectly ok," "nearly dead" or "dead."  Keeping her on a relative combat level with my Solar would be an added bonus.

::::Sounds like a problem with the Lunar, to me. Anybody who relies on passive defenses in Exalted is going to be very upset against an opponent of equal measure. 

:This is all background for the actual issue: Three levels of each Gift, keeping the current intentional restrictions, would require setting Essence minimums to each level (level 1, 1, level 2, 3, level 3, 5), and changing XP cost and the number of Gifts awarded by Charm purchase.  This is called 'running in place'- characters would get the same amount of power for the points they spent.  Having five levels just spreads it out a little.

::Why do I need 6 points of Gifts to simulate my squid totem? The fact is that you've recreated DBT with a higher Essence requirement for having Gifts worth having (My squid would have to increase his Essence just to get the same mileage out of 2 iterations of this Charm), and increased the degree of record-keeping. I do not consider an increase in complexity alongside a commeasurate decrease in power to be a 'fix'. ~ [[BerserkSeraph]]

:::Note that I created this primarily in response to the [[Szilard/MoreThoughtsOnLunars | discussion]] over on [[szilard]]'s page.  If you don't think that DBT needs to be changed, don't alter it.  The Essence requirement is to limit players from over-specializing in a particular type of power; if you think a specific Gift (such as gills) is overcosted but that the system is workable, tell me what you think it should cost (or modify this system to suit your vision better).  - [[Arafelis]]

::::I want to change DBT. I don't see how 'more complex' is a good way to change it. Well, actually, my fix IS more complex, but it is so in a manner I approve of. Keep in mind that things such as 'breathing underwater' and 'climbing walls' come up relatively rarely, whereas Soak applies often. Similarly, reducing multiple-action penalties by 2 is less potent than boosting Dex by 2, but they'd cost the same under this system. ~ [[BerserkSeraph]]

:::::To be fair, that's a bit like saying that because Sail comes up less often than Dodge, it shouldn't be an Ability, or it should be cheaper. In a certain type of story, Sail is very important, and in any other type of campaign you just wouldn't invest many points in it - the same goes for the less obviously powerful Gifts. If you're a Lunar stealth-assassain, you almost certainly need climb-on-walls abilitys ( more so than soak, even ). Otherwise, just don't buy any. -- [[Xarak]]

:It's also not just five levels- I listed five levels here, but characters with Essence 6 or higher could theoretically gain more levels in a Gift.  Such powers would be up to the player and Storyteller to determine, but should probably be slightly more powerful than the preceeding powers. - [[Arafelis]]


----
If the consensus is that the Gifts are too weak, I'll collapse the existing powers into four levels and leave the fifth to the Storyteller and player's imagination (possibly with suggestions if I have a really neat idea).  As for Attribute points, I'm actually not sure; what I was thinking originally was to limit players to spending no more than 2 Gifts on Attributes per purchase, but this doesn't really fix everything.  I might go the route of the original and make Dex cost two points and <nowiki>Str/Sta</nowiki> cost one each, and create a new Lunar Background (each dot grants 1 Gift point).  My concern there is that improving Dexterity in Beastman form would often cost more than doing so in human form.  Anyone have (a) better idea(s)? &[[Arafelis]]
:If the problem is the risk of people spending all their points on Attributes and getting them too high, you could make Attribute raising a Gift which has diminishing returns, or drawbacks at high levels. Say, 1 dot is +1 Strength, +1 Stamina; 2 dots is +2 to each, but 3 dots is +3 strength, +2 stamina, etc. Or for Dex., you get +1 point per dot but at high dots you suffer reduced health levels ( say ) due to being smaller and sleeker. This is also neater and more flavorful because everything you buy for DBT is a "Gift". -- [[Xarak]]

::It's more them getting too high ''too fast.''  I can limit how high the attributes get by modifying the permitted total (Right now, it's Ess + original; it could be Ess + original/2, or whatever), but it's harder to change how quickly a character buys in.  There's no reason a character shouldn't be able to have +ridiculous in each DBT attribute- or even +ridiculous in one attribute quickly- but I was considering the case of a Full Moon Lunar with Dex 6 (with Legendary Attribute) and Essence 3 taking three DBTs (a slight modification of what [[szilard]] brought up)- there's really nothing stopping them from having a dexterity of 16 in Deadly Beastman Form right away.  That's OK <i>eventually</i>, but not for a starting character...

::Hmm.  Maybe ((<nowiki>original attribute/2</nowiki>, round down) + Essence) after all?  I do like the idea of having all bonus be Gifts, it's just awkward to arrange without imposing too strict limits.  - [[Arafelis]]

:::Hmmm... what about a gift that both added additional dots in attributes and raised your permissible total as you increased it? -[[szilard]]

::::Or just increased cap, if you'r concerned with balance. A Lunar with Ess 3 Dex 4 can normally only increase his Dex by 5 with DBT, but if he takes the Celerity Gift 3 times, he can increase it by 8, sort of thing. ~ [[BerserkSeraph]]

:::Acutally, if you split the attribute bonuses into two gifts (Horrifying Might and Terrifying Agility, for example) and use the four-dot system, this should take care of itself insofar as you can only buy up to your Essence in dots... though that might end up too limiting. -[[szilard]]

::::If you allow Full Moons a +1 cap, that should sort out any over-limitation problems. -- [[Xarak]]

:::::I think I like a combination of these ideas; characters may up to double their base Attribute with DBT points (as above, without +Essence).  Additionally, a Gift named perhaps "Gifts of Might and Grace," purchased normally, increases this limit by 1 for all Attributes.  Levels above four might increase the maximum by two or even three per purchase.  I'm not sure whether or not to give Full Moons +1 limit by default or not.  How's that sound?  - [[Arafelis]]

::::::I dislike Caste-attribute benefits. Full Moons benefit from Attribute boosts more because they have die-adders and success-converters already, having taken more Charms from the combat trees - they don't need an increased cap to emphasize their role as combat guys, and it certainly makes less sense than giving it to Luna's favored shapeshifters, the Changing Moons. ~ [[BerserkSeraph]]

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The Fear Gift seems rather complicated. Having to keep tabs on the cumulative effects of previous levels, which may or may not apply depending upon the Willpower of the victim, is too much for my tiny mind. I'd suggest the following : Each dot causes a +1 difficulty penalty to any action opposing the Lunar, which is resisted by a Valor roll at the start of the scene, Difficulty equal to the number of dots. Extras automatically fail, and probably flee. Non-extras can spend a Willpower point to avoid the penalty for one roll. I think this maintains the spirit of your version while being simpler.

Venom gift looks good! -- [[Xarak]]

:Thanks.  I will probably re-work Fear; I agree it's overly complicated.  However, I'm concerned about having a blanket Valor roll because it's either too difficult or too easy... if the difficulty is 1, it's pretty simple to resist (especially if the Storyteller permits temporary Willpower to be spent for an automatic success on Virtue checks- not sure if that's cannon or not, but I've done so in the past for difficult rolls), but if the character ends up having to roll 2 or more successes with 3 or 4 dice, a lot of 'courageous' characters will end up fleeing.  If I were to make the difficulty equal to the number of dots, even val 5's would back off... which would make for a potentially silly situation in which two Val 5, Fear'd Lunars face each other but are too terrified of one another to attack.

:What I might end up doing is basing the effects on the victim's Valor, but with their option to spend a Willpower point on any given round to make a Will roll and use that result in place for the scene. - [[Arafelis]]

:Note that three levels of the Fear Gift (which may be purchased by a starting Lunar with only one level of DBT), as written, appear to be better than Terrifying Apparition of Glory. That strikes me as... problematic. -[[szilard]]

::Actually, the third level of Gifts of Fear is mechanically very similar to the Terrifying Bestial Visage Gift as printed.  The text for Fearsome Appearance and Terrifying Bestial Visage does not indicate they do not stack, so, a character with those two printed Gifts imposes a +2 difficulty penalty on attacks and defenses from characters with Will less than Essence +2.  If they fail a Valor check, they are instead at a +3 penalty to defend and cannot attack.  Characters with Will higher than Ess +2 are at +1 difficulty to attack or defend.  In my version, the difficulty of the Valor roll is increased by one, and it's harder for high-Willpower characters to avoid some of the penalties.  Terrifying Apparition of Glory has never imposed a defense penalty, scales automatically with Essence, and affects characters regardless of their Willpower.  More important to it, I think, is the automatic compulsion effect- the automatic successes from Fear might help a Lunar intimidate someone into doing what they want, but won't auto-compel obedience nearly the same way Terrifying Apparition will.  While I agree the Gift is overly complex, I'm not sure that it's too far out of scale with the printed version I'm basing it on.  I'll prune it a bit, just in case.  - [[Arafelis]] <i>crunches on.</i>

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To see the older versions of these Gifts, check any revision before 27.