Trithemius/StraightDaiklaive - Revision history

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Trithemius: reply to Panache

2005-08-23T13:28:01Z

reply to Panache

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The straight daiklaive is an artifact weapon that is modelled on the ''jian'', or chinese broadsword, that is probably most widely known through the ''Green Destiny Sword'' that featured as a plot element in ''Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon''. This artifact pattern was created to provide some 'crunchiness' to the visual customisation of a Sidereal martial-artist's daiklaive.

== Uproar East, Strike West - Straight Daiklaive ==

Artifact •• 
''A nimble broadsword with a small, often decorated, guard'' 
Exalted Power Combat Statistics: Speed +8 Accuracy +4 Damage +5L Defence +4 Rate 6 ''plus Magical Material bonus'' 
Commitment: 5 motes 
Requirements: Strength • •, Dexterity • • • 
''Savant and Sorcerer'': Power • • Usefulness • • • Game Impact • • Script Immunity • • • Component Drawback • Notoriety Drawback • • 

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The straight, or nimble, daiklaive was first developed by Sidereals in the First Age who sought a weapon that allowed great flexibility in either attack or defence. It proved a moderately popular design with practicioners of armed martial arts styles during the First Age, but often these individuals preferred a pattern that suited their associated Magical Material more. The Sidereals, whose Magical Material compensated for the loss in killing power with its fate-bending properties, remained the principle users and to this day the appearence of these relatively rare weapons causes scholars, spies, and scavenger-lords to quirk an eyebrow and pay greater attention. Fortunately, for the wielders, daiklaives of this pattern seem unwilling to leave their owners without great effort; perhaps the Sidereal who first created the design worked some subtle fate-magic into their very lines?

=== Comments ===

Pre-emptive Comment! Some might be curious about the Rate improvement (equal to that of the Short Daiklaive). I felt that the "nimbleness" of the blade required some Rate increase, and believe that the Attribute requirements compensate for this. For-What-Its-Worth I rather think that the hapless Short Daiklaive needs a Rate improvement itself, or else the standard Daiklaive needs to lose some. -- [[Trithemius]]

I think your stats are more than a little excessive. What possible reason do I have to take a normal Daiklaive, a Short Daikliave, a Wavecleaver or a Reaper Daiklaive (all 2 dot weapons, iirc) over this weapon? - [[Kraken]]

: Personally, as I noted, I am not sure why anyone who is not a Immaculate Fire Dragon Style martial-artist would ever take a short daiklaive since it seems to be inferior to a regular daiklaive in basically every way with the exception of a slight Rate advantage; the same is true of most of the "lesser" daiklaive variants. I should also note that these are Exalted Power Combat statistics which, when compared to the main system statistics, seem very high. I don't mean to imply that you missed this, but I realise it could have been a possibility. The reason for the high Accuracy and Defence values is simply because, according to Savant & Sorcerer, Damage is weighted as much more important than all other statistics combined. Whether or not this is true is, of course, a matter for seperate discussion, but the statistics were selected on this basis. I should also note that the "increases" are, apart from the Rate, precisely the same as the improvements that a standard daiklaive has over its mundane equivalent (the chopping sword); this was not deliberate on my part but I find it "most auspicious"! :) -- [[Trithemius]]

::I was comparing the powercombat statistics for the weapons, in fact. As for why someone would take a Short Daikliave above a Normal, a) the high rate that you note, and b) the extra accuracy. It is a small advantage, but one none the less. It also has a lowered commitment as compared to the normal daikliave. Your Daikliave has a statline that is superior in generally 3-4/5 statistics as compared the other varients, and is only 1 (and in one case 2) point behind the statistic it does not exceed (this is however countered by 1 or more statistics in which it is better). It is such a manifestly superior weapon that it would soon become the standard 'Daikliave' to the exclusion of most other types (there is a small window for the Reaver and Grand). I would also say that the ''Savant & Sorcerer'' weighting of damage above all others is ... foolish to say the least. - [[Kraken]]

::: I freely admit that I made use of the weighting in S&S without must consideration for the integrity of its design, but I am not sure that it is as "foolish" is you suggest; given the way in which combat damage mechanics function in Exalted. The reaver, wavecleaver, and short daiklaive seem absolutely superfluous and I can think of no reason at all why a person with any interest in effectiveness would choose them over the ordinary daiklaive, although I do not have the sourcebooks that introduce these weapons so perhaps there is some special rules associated with them that make them slightly more desirable? Are there alterations to the stats that you might suggest to bring the design into the realm of feasibility, Feedback and pointers for a redesign were what I was looking for here? -- [[Trithemius]]

:::: Given the way combat mechanics function in ''Exalted'', especially in Power Combat, I would value (up to a certain level) a point of accuracy over a point of damage. Damage counts for nothing if you can't hit, and ping isn't bad at the 3+ dice level. Someone would pick a reaper or a short daikliave for more accuracy (and the in the case of a short, more rate) as compared to a normal Daiklaive, someone who relied on flurries of attacks rather than single powerful blows. In addition, the pre-PC reaper, in ''Outcastes'' was a lot more useful, statwise. The wavecleaver is much more of a stylistic choice, though I believe it comes with 2 heartstone sockets which could be useful (especially if you have weapon enchancing stones). The Reaver gives you good powerful blows, at the cost of defense. I thought my suggestions were implicit in my criticism of the blade, but I should have been clearer, that because the stats were too powerful, they should be reduced or the artifact rating increased. I would say take off a point of Acc and Defence, maybe a point or two of speed, and keep it Rating ••. Or raise it to ••• as [[Haku]] suggests below. - [[Kraken]]

::::: Specific enumeration is always useful, although I did extract from your initial comment the idea of "being too powerful". The way I look at the combat statistics is that, only one success is required to hit and, after hitting, damage is more useful; damage is also not subject to dicepool reductions or situational penalties except for soak (obviously :)). My problem with the reaper is that it does not seem to reflect a long, nimble, sword since its Rate is poor compared to the ordinary daiklaive. I think that I agree that it could stand to lose a point of Accuracy and Defence apiece, but I am unconvinced that Speed should drop lower than the ordinary daiklaive; it is interesting to note that the mundane straight sword is more Accurate than the mundane chopping sword however. I personally am of the opinion that, while the daiklaive is reasonable, the three patterns I have mentioned are greatly flawed and probably need to be reconsidered I would even go so far as to suggest that the straight daiklaive I present here is a reasonable replacement for the reaper daiklaive as a straight, fast, artifact sword. -- [[Trithemius]]

::: Also, Short Daiklaves are only Artifact • each. Hence the lower stats. Regardless, there is no way that 1 pt of damage is worth 1 Accuracy, 2 Defense, 2 Speed and 1 Rate. Not a chance. I'd say that you could trade 1 damage for one defense and one rate, but even that's pushing it. - FrivYeti

:::: This is not the case in the summary of Artifact Hand-to-Hand Weapons on p. 211 of the Exalted Players Guide which lists a Short Daiklaive as Artifact • • - has this been the subject of errata? -- [[Trithemius]]

::::: Actually, the short daiklave was introduced in the Dragonblooded book and statted in the DB errata, and it's listed there as artifact 1 when used alone, and artifact 2 when used as a pair as per the Fire Dragon style. ~ [[Haku]]

:::::: Thanks for the heads up [[Haku]], it seems that the EPC summary neglects to mention the cost is for two swords, not one. -- [[Trithemius]]

:::::::Yeah... it's one of those little things that pop up and trip people if you don't have the book that they're from. ~ [[Haku]]

:::::::I have the errata now, at least. Is there any for the Exalted Players Guide yet? Or is it just to be assumed that short daiklaives come in pairs? -- [[Trithemius]]

::::::::It's not stated, and since they're used in pairs... I tend to assume that the artifact 2 is for use as a pair. ~ [[Haku]]

:There's errata for the Player's Guide, but all it does it mention some stuff on costs on pages 115 and 116. There might be something new, but I don't know. I got it in a file called 'Additional Errata' a while ago from the site. I think you should just assume, unless you can find somewhere else official to contradict. ~Andrew02

::::: Further, in Savant & Sorcerer it mentions (p. 29) that the +3 Speed +1 Accuracy and +2 Defence of a standard (non-EPC) daiklaive is worth between +1 and +2 Damage. If one considers that this using non-EPC systems, then perhaps greater statistical improvements can be inferred? I am also intrigued, after doing some number crunching of mundane weapons and their artifact equivalents to observe that the standard daiklaive gets rather a lot of bonuses compared to the other types. -- [[Trithemius]]

Personally, I have to agree with Kraken here, this daiklave is far superior to all the other daiklaves in its artifact 'class', especially when you factor in the 5MM bonus. If you keep the stats as is, I would recommend increasing the artifact level to 3. ~ [[haku]]

If you're looking for something like this that other people might find balanced, I'd take a look at some other versions that intend to be closer to the classic combat Reaper Daiklave at FixThePowerCombatRules/ReaperDaiklave or at [[Artifacts/CrownedDaiklaves]]. - [[Panache]]
: Thanks for the relevant wikilinks! -- [[Trithemius]]

Haku: assumptions

2005-08-23T07:23:58Z

assumptions

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 Back to [[Trithemius]]<br>
-Back to [[Trithemius/Artifacts |Trithemius' Artifacts]]<br>
+Back to [[Trithemius/Artifacts|Trithemius' Artifacts]]<br>
 Back to [[Artifacts]]<br>
-Back to [[Artifacts/Offensive | Offensive Artifacts]]
+Back to [[Artifacts/Offensive|Offensive Artifacts]]
 ----

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 Personally, I have to agree with Kraken here, this daiklave is far superior to all the other daiklaves in its artifact 'class', especially when you factor in the 5MM bonus. If you keep the stats as is, I would recommend increasing the artifact level to 3. ~ [[haku]]
-If you're looking for something like this that other people might find balanced, I'd take a look at some other versions that intend to be closer to the classic combat Reaper Daiklave at [[FixThePowerCombatRulesTrithemius/StraightDaiklaive/ReaperDaiklave]] or at [[Artifacts/CrownedDaiklaves]]. - [[Panache]]
+If you're looking for something like this that other people might find balanced, I'd take a look at some other versions that intend to be closer to the classic combat Reaper Daiklave at [[FixThePowerCombatRules/ReaperDaiklave]] or at [[Artifacts/CrownedDaiklaves]]. - [[Panache]]
 : Thanks for the relevant wikilinks! -- [[Trithemius]]

@@ Line 36: / Line 36: @@
 ::::: Specific enumeration is always useful, although I did extract from your initial comment the idea of "being too powerful". The way I look at the combat statistics is that, only one success is required to hit and, after hitting, damage is more useful; damage is also not subject to dicepool reductions or situational penalties <i>except</i> for soak (obviously :)). My problem with the reaper is that it does not seem to reflect a long, nimble, sword since its Rate is poor compared to the ordinary daiklaive. I think that I agree that it could stand to lose a point of Accuracy and Defence apiece, but I am unconvinced that Speed should drop lower than the ordinary daiklaive; it is interesting to note that the mundane straight sword is more Accurate than the mundane chopping sword however. I personally am of the opinion that, while the daiklaive is reasonable, the three patterns I have mentioned are greatly flawed and probably need to be reconsidered I would even go so far as to suggest that the straight daiklaive I present here is a reasonable replacement for the reaper daiklaive as a straight, fast, artifact sword. -- [[Trithemius]]
-::: Also, Short Daiklaves are only Artifact &bull; each. Hence the lower stats. Regardless, there is no way that 1 pt of damage is worth 1 Accuracy, 2 Defense, 2 Speed and 1 Rate. Not a chance. I'd say that you could trade 1 damage for one defense and one rate, but even that's pushing it. - FrivYeti
+::: Also, Short Daiklaves are only Artifact &bull; each. Hence the lower stats. Regardless, there is no way that 1 pt of damage is worth 1 Accuracy, 2 Defense, 2 Speed and 1 Rate. Not a chance. I'd say that you could trade 1 damage for one defense and one rate, but even that's pushing it. - [[FrivYeti]]
 :::: This is not the case in the summary of Artifact Hand-to-Hand Weapons on p. 211 of the <i>Exalted Players Guide</i> which lists a Short Daiklaive as Artifact &bull; &bull; - has this been the subject of errata? -- [[Trithemius]]
@@ Line 56: / Line 56: @@
 Personally, I have to agree with Kraken here, this daiklave is far superior to all the other daiklaves in its artifact 'class', especially when you factor in the 5MM bonus. If you keep the stats as is, I would recommend increasing the artifact level to 3. ~ [[haku]]
-If you're looking for something like this that other people might find balanced, I'd take a look at some other versions that intend to be closer to the classic combat Reaper Daiklave at FixThePowerCombatRules/ReaperDaiklave or at [[Artifacts/CrownedDaiklaves]]. - [[Panache]]
+If you're looking for something like this that other people might find balanced, I'd take a look at some other versions that intend to be closer to the classic combat Reaper Daiklave at [[FixThePowerCombatRulesTrithemius/StraightDaiklaive/ReaperDaiklave]] or at [[Artifacts/CrownedDaiklaves]]. - [[Panache]]

@@ Line 36: / Line 36: @@
 ::::: Specific enumeration is always useful, although I did extract from your initial comment the idea of "being too powerful". The way I look at the combat statistics is that, only one success is required to hit and, after hitting, damage is more useful; damage is also not subject to dicepool reductions or situational penalties <i>except</i> for soak (obviously :)). My problem with the reaper is that it does not seem to reflect a long, nimble, sword since its Rate is poor compared to the ordinary daiklaive. I think that I agree that it could stand to lose a point of Accuracy and Defence apiece, but I am unconvinced that Speed should drop lower than the ordinary daiklaive; it is interesting to note that the mundane straight sword is more Accurate than the mundane chopping sword however. I personally am of the opinion that, while the daiklaive is reasonable, the three patterns I have mentioned are greatly flawed and probably need to be reconsidered I would even go so far as to suggest that the straight daiklaive I present here is a reasonable replacement for the reaper daiklaive as a straight, fast, artifact sword. -- [[Trithemius]]
-::: Also, Short Daiklaves are only Artifact &bull; each. Hence the lower stats. Regardless, there is no way that 1 pt of damage is worth 1 Accuracy, 2 Defense, 2 Speed and 1 Rate. Not a chance. I'd say that you could trade 1 damage for one defense and one rate, but even that's pushing it. - FrivYeti
+::: Also, Short Daiklaves are only Artifact &bull; each. Hence the lower stats. Regardless, there is no way that 1 pt of damage is worth 1 Accuracy, 2 Defense, 2 Speed and 1 Rate. Not a chance. I'd say that you could trade 1 damage for one defense and one rate, but even that's pushing it. - [[FrivYeti]]
 :::: This is not the case in the summary of Artifact Hand-to-Hand Weapons on p. 211 of the <i>Exalted Players Guide</i> which lists a Short Daiklaive as Artifact &bull; &bull; - has this been the subject of errata? -- [[Trithemius]]
@@ Line 56: / Line 56: @@
 Personally, I have to agree with Kraken here, this daiklave is far superior to all the other daiklaves in its artifact 'class', especially when you factor in the 5MM bonus. If you keep the stats as is, I would recommend increasing the artifact level to 3. ~ [[haku]]
-If you're looking for something like this that other people might find balanced, I'd take a look at some other versions that intend to be closer to the classic combat Reaper Daiklave at FixThePowerCombatRules/ReaperDaiklave or at [[Artifacts/CrownedDaiklaves]]. - [[Panache]]
+If you're looking for something like this that other people might find balanced, I'd take a look at some other versions that intend to be closer to the classic combat Reaper Daiklave at [[FixThePowerCombatRules/ReaperDaiklave]] or at [[Artifacts/CrownedDaiklaves]]. - [[Panache]]
 : Thanks for the relevant wikilinks! -- [[Trithemius]]

@@ Line 36: / Line 36: @@
 ::::: Specific enumeration is always useful, although I did extract from your initial comment the idea of "being too powerful". The way I look at the combat statistics is that, only one success is required to hit and, after hitting, damage is more useful; damage is also not subject to dicepool reductions or situational penalties <i>except</i> for soak (obviously :)). My problem with the reaper is that it does not seem to reflect a long, nimble, sword since its Rate is poor compared to the ordinary daiklaive. I think that I agree that it could stand to lose a point of Accuracy and Defence apiece, but I am unconvinced that Speed should drop lower than the ordinary daiklaive; it is interesting to note that the mundane straight sword is more Accurate than the mundane chopping sword however. I personally am of the opinion that, while the daiklaive is reasonable, the three patterns I have mentioned are greatly flawed and probably need to be reconsidered I would even go so far as to suggest that the straight daiklaive I present here is a reasonable replacement for the reaper daiklaive as a straight, fast, artifact sword. -- [[Trithemius]]
-::: Also, Short Daiklaves are only Artifact &bull; each. Hence the lower stats. Regardless, there is no way that 1 pt of damage is worth 1 Accuracy, 2 Defense, 2 Speed and 1 Rate. Not a chance. I'd say that you could trade 1 damage for one defense and one rate, but even that's pushing it. - [[FrivYeti]]
+::: Also, Short Daiklaves are only Artifact &bull; each. Hence the lower stats. Regardless, there is no way that 1 pt of damage is worth 1 Accuracy, 2 Defense, 2 Speed and 1 Rate. Not a chance. I'd say that you could trade 1 damage for one defense and one rate, but even that's pushing it. - FrivYeti
 :::: This is not the case in the summary of Artifact Hand-to-Hand Weapons on p. 211 of the <i>Exalted Players Guide</i> which lists a Short Daiklaive as Artifact &bull; &bull; - has this been the subject of errata? -- [[Trithemius]]
@@ Line 56: / Line 56: @@
 Personally, I have to agree with Kraken here, this daiklave is far superior to all the other daiklaves in its artifact 'class', especially when you factor in the 5MM bonus. If you keep the stats as is, I would recommend increasing the artifact level to 3. ~ [[haku]]
-If you're looking for something like this that other people might find balanced, I'd take a look at some other versions that intend to be closer to the classic combat Reaper Daiklave at [[FixThePowerCombatRules/ReaperDaiklave]] or at [[Artifacts/CrownedDaiklaves]]. - [[Panache]]
+If you're looking for something like this that other people might find balanced, I'd take a look at some other versions that intend to be closer to the classic combat Reaper Daiklave at FixThePowerCombatRules/ReaperDaiklave or at [[Artifacts/CrownedDaiklaves]]. - [[Panache]]