Thus Spake Zaranephilpal/SecretMartialArts - Revision history

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Adsl-209-30-85-107.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net: Commentary

2005-10-11T01:14:55Z

Commentary

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== Learning Sidereal Secret Kung-Fu ==
Nephilpal - 10/18/2003 03:10:11

Sifu: I will now teach you my secrets. 
Student: Yay! 
Sifu: Lesson One. Wash my Manse. Wax on. Wax off. Lesson Two we start on artifacts... 
Student: Yay? 
Sifu: ...when you polish my collection! Here is your rag. Come to me when you have learned the lesson of the rag and the Manse. 
Student: *under breath* Damn it!

----
Later note by [[medivh]] 01/18/2004

What an incredibly sucky way to learn the Demesne and Manse Form, followed by the Four Magical Materials Form :)

== Celestial vs Sidereal MA ==
Nephilpal - 04/20/2004 15:24:56

I can only point to page 232 of the PG and my own experience
designing two canon styles.

The quote in question reads, "Martial-arts styles sgould be
equivelent in power to other Martial Arts Charms of that power level,
with the understanding that the Glorious Dragon Paths are the
products of transcendent mastery and not entirely appropriate as a
template for other effects."

Further guidelines in that section point to the fundamentally martial
nature of martial arts Charms, as well as pointing to the required
existence of a Form Charm with slightly weaker-than expected Charms
before and slightly better-than-expected power for post-Form magic. A
maximum of 3 weapons is suggested, as is the guideline that armored
styles are weaker than unarmored ones. If a martial art replicates or
mimics a proprietary effect of a specific Exalted group, it does so
less efficiently. All Sideral styles need a sutra.

From this and the given examples of Snake, Tiger, Five Dragon, Air
Dragon, Earth Dragon, Fire Dragon, Water Dragon, Wood Dragon, Ebon
Shadow, Mantis, Hungry Ghost, Violet Bier of Sorrows, Charcoal March
of Spiders, Prismatic Arrangement of Creation, Citrine Poxes of
Creation, Crimson Pentacle Blade, Celestial Monkey, Dreaming Pearl
Courtesan and Righteous Devil, I've been able to draw conclusions:

First, every martial art is roughly balanced against other arts in
the same tier of power. The exact number of Charms in each Celestial
style varies from 9 to as many as the Immaculate Styles hold... which
I want to say is 12 or 14 at the most complex, but I don't have books
handy. Of course, as the PG notes, the Immaculate styles are the very
upper limits of what Celestial can do, courtesy of the transcendent
mastery of their creators. Nothing we've seen has shown us a
Celestial Martial Art that requires more than Essence 5. Since the
inclusion of an Essence 6 Charm would place it above the scope of the
Glorious Dragon Paths, I veto that. Furthermore, we've seen an
average of 10 Charms in a style. This has been pushed somewhat, but
not far. That implies to be a certain defining harmony of structure.
If you want to balance a new style against the old, you must follow
the traditional structures of the old. Repeatedly, we have seen
nothing beyond Essence 5 and no trees substantially deeper than
Immaculates. Given that whole transcendent mastery and the fact that
Sidereals have been repeatedly experimenting with teaching their
secret styles to Dragon-Blooded for many, many centuries, I'd venture
to say that if it were possible to build a better Celestial style,
the Sidereals would have done so for the Immaculate Order. The fact
that they did not do this is not proof that greater Celestial styles
do not exist, but strong anecdotal evidence supporting that claim.

Ultimately, I think all Essence 6+ MA effects are strictly a matter
of Sidereal styles within the canon system. At least that's how I
understand matters. I could very well be wrong. I don't claim to be
infallible. But well, there you are. That's all my reasoning.

--Neph

== Sunset Upon Clouds Style ==
Nephilpal - 04/20/2004 17:02:44

Being published doesn't make me right, silly. It just makes me cooler.

<nowiki>*flashes a dazzlingly arrogant smile*</nowiki>

But seriously, I agree that Solars were extraordinarily mighty. And
given that they can practice Sidereal Martial Arts at all, I'll bet
they certainly learned them in spades and even had transcendent
styles built by Sidereals to accomodate Solar Essence in much the
same way as the Immaculate styles later accomodated the elemental
Essence of the Dragon-Blooded. Solars can't build Sidereal styles.
They're lucky to have access to them.

And yes, that makes one Ability where Sidereals are just flat out
better at designing and implementing Charms. That's one Ability where
Solars will almost certainly lag behind if they practice it to the
exclusion of all else. Of course, Solars have 24 other Abilities in
which to achieve high-Essence powers, while Sidereals have their
measly one.

<nowiki>*shrugs*</nowiki>

Solars aren't like unto the gods. They killed those greater than the
gods, and that puts them higher on the food chain. However, that
doesn't make them automatically superior in every endeavor than the
Exalted who specialize in that field. They will never be able to
match Lunar shapechanging, Abyssal necromancy, Dragon-Blooded
elemental manipulation or free reflexives or the two advantages of
Sidereals: astrology and martial arts. However, being the rulers of
Creation, there was probably a time when Solars could turn to their
vizier and say, "I wish to practice Sunset Upon Clouds Style." And
the Sidereal quite rightly says, "But my lord, there is no such
style." And then the Solar says, "Then I shall see you in a year's
time." To which the Sidereal bows and retreats, saying "Yes, my lord."

--Neph

== Comments ==
There's a bit of a problem with the argument that if Celestial styles could have Essence 6 charms, then the Immaculate styles would have been made with them. For one, most of the Immaculate styles don't even go to Essence 5, so right there one can see that they didn't pack in as much power as they could fit. Also, these are styles made to be learned by Terrestrials. I don't think there are very many DBs at all with Essence 6. And what's more, because of the restrictions on DBs learning Celestial styles, putting Essence 6 charms into the Immaculate styles would make most monks incapable of learning more than one style, since they wouldn't be able to complete the one they started on. I think the Sidereals could've made the Immaculate styles go much further, but wisely chose not to. - [[NatalieD]]

i'm with NatalieD on this. essence 6 celestial styles for immaculates are a waste of time, and evend dangerous. essence 6 celestial styles for sidereals are... well, another waste of time, since you can do sidereal styles at that level. so that's why we don't see celestial styles at essence 6+
[[Domon]]

I'm with this: Mastering an Immaculate Style has beneficial side effects to the Dragon-Blooded who does so--that said, something tells me that a style that cannot be mastered until its wielder is at least 100 years old, give or take, is unlikely to be as effective. Also, until Sidereals there was no push to create upper-level MA charms--every such tree designed thus far was for "mortal lifetime" characters. That ALSO said, I'll give sidereals their advantage in creating Sidereal-level MA. However, in my own head, they have no greater ability to devise Celestial or Terrestrial MA than any other collection of millennia-old savants with a focus and centuries to refine their art. A solar or Lunar with the time and effort could create any of the Immaculate paths, they just wouldn't have the resources at their disposal to accomplish this that the Sidereals could. -- [[Mockery]]

Blaque: Fixing layout some.

2004-06-25T18:23:30Z

Fixing layout some.

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 == Sunset Upon Clouds Style ==
 Nephilpal - 04/20/2004 17:02:44
 Being published doesn't make me right, silly. It just makes me cooler.
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 There's a bit of a problem with the argument that if Celestial styles could have Essence 6 charms, then the Immaculate styles would have been made with them.  For one, most of the Immaculate styles don't even go to Essence 5, so right there one can see that they didn't pack in as much power as they could fit.  Also, these are styles made to be learned by Terrestrials.  I don't think there are very many DBs at all with Essence 6.  And what's more, because of the restrictions on DBs learning Celestial styles, putting Essence 6 charms into the Immaculate styles would make most monks incapable of learning more than one style, since they wouldn't be able to complete the one they started on.  I think the Sidereals could've made the Immaculate styles go much further, but wisely chose not to.  - [[NatalieD]]
-i'm with NatalieD on this. essence 6 celestial styles for immaculates are a waste of time, and evend dangerous. essence 6 celestial styles for sidereals are... well, another waste of time, since you can do sidereal styles at that level. so that's why we don't see celestial styles at essence 6+
+i'm with [[NatalieD]] on this. essence 6 celestial styles for immaculates are a waste of time, and evend dangerous. essence 6 celestial styles for sidereals are... well, another waste of time, since you can do sidereal styles at that level. so that's why we don't see celestial styles at essence 6+
 [[Domon]]