Thus Spake Zaranephilpal/IncredibleAbyssalDodge - Revision history

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MeiRen: on finding writer quotes

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Nephilpal - 12/10/2003 10:30:07

I'm afraid you can't quite do that.

I'd need my book in front of me, but Abyssal entropic dodges are still dodges. You can't "double-dip" a defense. If you dodge with a Charm, you can't turn around and dodge with another Charm because the attacker still has successes left over.

There are ways to get around this limitation with Combos and so forth (to link multiple Charms into a single dodge), but unlike Solars, an Abyssal can't generally mix a persistent dodge with a basic dice subtractor. The subtractor doesn't enhance the dodge provided by the persistent defense, so the two don't actually interact. As a result, you're left relying on one or the other.

Solars can use their dice adders to boost persistent defenses as needed. On the other hand, they can't just blow a ton of Essence for a poor-man's perfect defense after a single Charm. Ultimately, I think the advantages tend to cancel in both directions, though I defer to such luminaries as Mailanka to explain whether that is actually the case.

But like I said, I'd have to look at the Charms again. I wrote way too many to memorize them all.

--Neph
----

Subject: Abyssal Dodge is Amazing
Nephilpal - 12/10/2003 11:28:25

> BrokenShade > (1) I believe I can use Flitting Shadow Form with 12 motes to reduce the attack to zero? There doesn't seem to be a limit in the Charm, other than not reducing past zero?

Bingo. Like I said, it's a poor-man's perfect defense.

> BrokenShade > (2) If I Combo Fivefold Shadow Form and Flitting Shadow Form (can I do this?) can I use Fivefold Shadow Form to reduce the attack to 16 dice (5 Dodge 3 Ess) and then use Flitting Shadow Form to reduce the attack to zero for 8 more motes?

I'm almost certain so, yes... but we're treading into the "I want to look at my book before I give a definitive answer" territory.

> BrokenShade > (3) If I can do (2), you are saying that I cannot now Dodge the attack as I have reduced his pool ... so my persistent Incomparable Phantom Form that I have had up all scene can't be used?

Hmmmm... you know... I'm really not sure... and you're right about the Melee example. Here's where I'm a little confused on the matter. I've just gone off and studied the Exalted Errata.

The "one activation per instant" rule doesn't seem to apply, because you aren't try to multiplicatively stack repeated applications of the same Charm. What you want to do is combine an entropic dodge (reduces attack dice) with a conventional active dodge provides dodge dice that reduce attack successes per success rolled). The two effects are similar, but not the same, so nothing here qualifies as "double dipping" in the same instant.

Keep in mind that entropic and active dodges are both dodges, so you can't repeatedly dodge the same effect.

All that in mind, the earlier section "Activate a Reflexive Charm" (regarding defense options) briefly touches on this matter by mentioning a random subtraction of attacker successes as a type of special defense. The goes on to point out that special defenses are generally incompatible with dice adders and full dice pool charms. Of course, this doesn't exactly touch on persistent defenses, which is handled slightly later.

In the persistent defenses section, you see a ruling that explains how you can use a charm to enhance a basic defense to augment a persistent defense, but the ruling also mentions the "you can't dodge the same attack twice."

...

So here's what it comes down to. Do you think that an entropic dodge enhances a persistent active defense? If you believe so, then you can probably link them. If not, you have to rely on one or the other, but not both.

After reading everything, I'm inclined to recant my earlier statement and say that Abyssals can in fact stack entropic effects with persistents, and probably even go so far as to suggest that a Moonshadow (or Eclipse) who had instant-duration entropic dodges and active dodges could link them into a Combo.

The net result is that Abyssal Dodge really IS amazing... I think.

I'm still confused, though... and wishing I had my book on hand.

--Neph

=== Comments: ===
I'm still not 100% sure whether PowerCombat makes abyssal entropic dodges non-perfect... It would imply that you can't reduce the diepools, but it also says that things which 'reduce pools to a specific number' are not effected. Now, the wording on the entropic dodges states 'can reduce pools to 0' explicitly... This would imply that -IF- you reduce the pool to 0, it works, but you can't otherwise reduce it below their Essence. Now, my opinion is this is a wording fault somewhere, and they intended to nerf the entropics so there would always be at least a small chance of a hit, but it's currently un-stated and contradictory. -- [[Darloth]] muddies the waters

I'd say that since the wording says it can, then it can. However, I wouldn't reguard this as a perfect effect. -- DarkWolff

Entropic Dodges that say "can reduce a die pool to zero" can still reduce a die pool to zero. They're explicit exceptions to the general rule. Neph said this on the White-Wolf forum a few days ago, but I didn't archive it because it didn't seem that interesting. -MeiRen

: Dammit! We must archive everything our masters say! Think of the children, and the children's children, who in years to come will be living without the divine guidance of our Exalted Overlords whose very words are as Crack! ... Ok I'm done now... B-) - [[Nikink]]

::If you want to archive writer quotes: Take a look at the rpg.net threats "Exalted Sans Cliches", "Fair Folk Spoilers", and "Infernal Exalted - Any Ideas." There's a freaking TON of stuff over there. There's even a "See all posts by this user" command to make it easier. -MeiRen

@@ Line 17: / Line 17: @@
 Nephilpal - 12/10/2003 11:28:25
-> <b>BrokenShade</b> > <i>(1) I believe I can use Flitting Shadow Form with 12 motes to reduce the attack to zero? There doesn't seem to be a limit in the Charm, other than not reducing past zero?</i>
+> <b>[[BrokenShade]]</b> > <i>(1) I believe I can use Flitting Shadow Form with 12 motes to reduce the attack to zero? There doesn't seem to be a limit in the Charm, other than not reducing past zero?</i>
 Bingo. Like I said, it's a poor-man's perfect defense.
-> <b>BrokenShade</b> > <i>(2) If I Combo Fivefold Shadow Form and Flitting Shadow Form (can I do this?) can I use Fivefold Shadow Form to reduce the attack to 16 dice (5 Dodge 3 Ess) and then use Flitting Shadow Form to reduce the attack to zero for 8 more motes?</i>
+> <b>[[BrokenShade]]</b> > <i>(2) If I Combo Fivefold Shadow Form and Flitting Shadow Form (can I do this?) can I use Fivefold Shadow Form to reduce the attack to 16 dice (5 Dodge 3 Ess) and then use Flitting Shadow Form to reduce the attack to zero for 8 more motes?</i>
 I'm almost certain so, yes... but we're treading into the "I want to look at my book before I give a definitive answer" territory.
-> <b>BrokenShade</b> > <i>(3) If I can do (2), you are saying that I cannot now Dodge the attack as I have reduced his pool ... so my persistent Incomparable Phantom Form that I have had up all scene can't be used?</i>
+> <b>[[BrokenShade]]</b> > <i>(3) If I can do (2), you are saying that I cannot now Dodge the attack as I have reduced his pool ... so my persistent Incomparable Phantom Form that I have had up all scene can't be used?</i>
 Hmmmm... you know... I'm really not sure... and you're right about the Melee example. Here's where I'm a little confused on the matter. I've just gone off and studied the Exalted Errata.
@@ Line 50: / Line 50: @@
 === Comments: ===
-I'm still not 100% sure whether PowerCombat makes abyssal entropic dodges non-perfect... It would imply that you can't reduce the diepools, but it also says that things which 'reduce pools to a specific number' are not effected. Now, the wording on the entropic dodges states 'can reduce pools to 0' explicitly... This would imply that -IF- you reduce the pool to 0, it works, but you can't otherwise reduce it below their Essence. Now, my opinion is this is a wording fault somewhere, and they intended to nerf the entropics so there would always be at least a small chance of a hit, but it's currently un-stated and contradictory. <br> -- [[Darloth]]<i> muddies the waters</i>
+I'm still not 100% sure whether [[PowerCombat]] makes abyssal entropic dodges non-perfect... It would imply that you can't reduce the diepools, but it also says that things which 'reduce pools to a specific number' are not effected. Now, the wording on the entropic dodges states 'can reduce pools to 0' explicitly... This would imply that -IF- you reduce the pool to 0, it works, but you can't otherwise reduce it below their Essence. Now, my opinion is this is a wording fault somewhere, and they intended to nerf the entropics so there would always be at least a small chance of a hit, but it's currently un-stated and contradictory. <br> -- [[Darloth]]<i> muddies the waters</i>
-I'd say that since the wording says it can, then it can.  However, I wouldn't reguard this as a perfect effect.  -- DarkWolff
+I'd say that since the wording says it can, then it can.  However, I wouldn't reguard this as a perfect effect.  -- [[DarkWolff]]
-Entropic Dodges that say "can reduce a die pool to zero" can still reduce a die pool to zero.  They're explicit exceptions to the general rule.  Neph said this on the White-Wolf forum a few days ago, but I didn't archive it because it didn't seem that interesting.  -MeiRen
+Entropic Dodges that say "can reduce a die pool to zero" can still reduce a die pool to zero.  They're explicit exceptions to the general rule.  Neph said this on the White-Wolf forum a few days ago, but I didn't archive it because it didn't seem that interesting.  -[[MeiRen]]
 : Dammit! We must archive everything our masters say! Think of the children, and the children's children, who in years to come will be living without the divine guidance of our Exalted Overlords whose very words are as Crack! ... Ok I'm done now... B-) - [[Nikink]]
-::If you want to archive writer quotes: Take a look at the rpg.net threats "Exalted Sans Cliches", "Fair Folk Spoilers", and "Infernal Exalted - Any Ideas."  There's a freaking TON of stuff over there.  There's even a "See all posts by this user" command to make it easier.  -MeiRen
+::If you want to archive writer quotes: Take a look at the rpg.net threats "Exalted Sans Cliches", "Fair Folk Spoilers", and "Infernal Exalted - Any Ideas."  There's a freaking TON of stuff over there.  There's even a "See all posts by this user" command to make it easier.  -[[MeiRen]]

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