Thus Spake Zaraholden/InfernalsEvilorNot - Revision history

118.148.3.205: Undo revision 83645 - whoops, sorry! Should have been on its own page.

2010-11-01T02:59:58Z

Undo revision 83645 - whoops, sorry! Should have been on its own page.

118.148.3.205 at 02:58, 1 November 2010

2010-11-01T02:58:01Z

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2010-04-06T01:18:20Z

link fix

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2010-04-05T08:08:34Z

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2010-04-03T09:06:09Z

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Wordman: Added name anchors for easier linking from the outside world.

2009-08-13T18:25:24Z

Added name anchors for easier linking from the outside world.

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RandBrittain: *

2009-07-17T15:07:15Z

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2009-07-17T15:01:14Z

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2009-07-17T14:55:35Z

RandBrittain: *

2009-07-17T14:53:18Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:59, 1 November 2010
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	In the end, we got the Storytelling chapter you see today, which urges you to consider very carefully whether your game will present the Reclamation as the brilliant masterstroke of the Yozis, or a mad, doomed, poisonous assault on Creation fueled by nothing more than the Ebon Dragon's spite.		In the end, we got the Storytelling chapter you see today, which urges you to consider very carefully whether your game will present the Reclamation as the brilliant masterstroke of the Yozis, or a mad, doomed, poisonous assault on Creation fueled by nothing more than the Ebon Dragon's spite.
−
−	~~[#[[GoldenAgeOfTheShogunate]]]~~
−	~~== The Golden Age of the Shogunate ==~~
−
−	The hell it is. The Shogunate portrayed in the Aspect Books is subject to fairly regular collapses and overthrows of the central government, a crumbling infrastructure too complex for them to properly maintain, and constant border warfare with the Fair Folk that ends in defeat or stalemate far too often for anyone's comfort. Not to mention piss-poor relations with Heaven bordering on active obstructionism. The Dragon-Blooded hearken back to it as some kind of rose-tinted golden age because there were way more of them back then, and there was always a war going on to march off and be a hero in, in an ironic tragedy of the commons sort of way, plus they had greater access to cool magitech weapons like Dragon Armor. The Realm has proved itself to be a far more stable and widely prosperous governmental system than the Shogunate ever was, but nobody gets to call himself "Daimyo" so it rankles.

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:58, 1 November 2010
Line 263:		Line 263:

	In the end, we got the Storytelling chapter you see today, which urges you to consider very carefully whether your game will present the Reclamation as the brilliant masterstroke of the Yozis, or a mad, doomed, poisonous assault on Creation fueled by nothing more than the Ebon Dragon's spite.		In the end, we got the Storytelling chapter you see today, which urges you to consider very carefully whether your game will present the Reclamation as the brilliant masterstroke of the Yozis, or a mad, doomed, poisonous assault on Creation fueled by nothing more than the Ebon Dragon's spite.
		+
		+	[#[[GoldenAgeOfTheShogunate]]]
		+	== The Golden Age of the Shogunate ==
		+
		+	The hell it is. The Shogunate portrayed in the Aspect Books is subject to fairly regular collapses and overthrows of the central government, a crumbling infrastructure too complex for them to properly maintain, and constant border warfare with the Fair Folk that ends in defeat or stalemate far too often for anyone's comfort. Not to mention piss-poor relations with Heaven bordering on active obstructionism. The Dragon-Blooded hearken back to it as some kind of rose-tinted golden age because there were way more of them back then, and there was always a war going on to march off and be a hero in, in an ironic tragedy of the commons sort of way, plus they had greater access to cool magitech weapons like Dragon Armor. The Realm has proved itself to be a far more stable and widely prosperous governmental system than the Shogunate ever was, but nobody gets to call himself "Daimyo" so it rankles.

@@ Line 92: / Line 92: @@
 == Exalted and Consequences ==
-Exalted, as a game, isn't designed to emulate Ancient World traditional mythic stories. It's designed to subvert them by injecting modern rational analysis and consequences. To say that Exaltation makes one immune to consequences is to completely and totally miss the point of the game. This is why there is no resurrection magic in Exalted, even if you sell your soul to the Yozis and sacrifice a five-dot artifact. You can't build a [[NThus_Spake_Zaraholden/InfernalsEvilorNot/A]] artifact to do it. You can't invent an Essence 10 Charm. You can't give up everything you have and are. You can't have take-backsies. The things you do have consequences and you have to live with and deal with them.
+Exalted, as a game, isn't designed to emulate Ancient World traditional mythic stories. It's designed to subvert them by injecting modern rational analysis and consequences. To say that Exaltation makes one immune to consequences is to completely and totally miss the point of the game. This is why there is no resurrection magic in Exalted, even if you sell your soul to the Yozis and sacrifice a five-dot artifact. You can't build a N/A artifact to do it. You can't invent an Essence 10 Charm. You can't give up everything you have and are. You can't have take-backsies. The things you do have consequences and you have to live with and deal with them.
 And I imagine the Exalted care about death exactly as much as the average heroic person does, which is to say, they're absolutely terrified of the whole notion, but maybe they have something they value enough to put it above their own life. They're certainly not blasé about the thought of dying.

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 ----
 == Do Yozis Choose Evil GSPs? ==
@@ Line 25: / Line 26: @@
 ----
 == How the Yozis Think ==
@@ Line 87: / Line 89: @@
 ----
 == Exalted and Consequences ==
-Exalted, as a game, isn't designed to emulate Ancient World traditional mythic stories. It's designed to subvert them by injecting modern rational analysis and consequences. To say that Exaltation makes one immune to consequences is to completely and totally miss the point of the game. This is why there is no resurrection magic in Exalted, even if you sell your soul to the Yozis and sacrifice a five-dot artifact. You can't build a N/A artifact to do it. You can't invent an Essence 10 Charm. You can't give up everything you have and are. You can't have take-backsies. The things you do have consequences and you have to live with and deal with them.
+Exalted, as a game, isn't designed to emulate Ancient World traditional mythic stories. It's designed to subvert them by injecting modern rational analysis and consequences. To say that Exaltation makes one immune to consequences is to completely and totally miss the point of the game. This is why there is no resurrection magic in Exalted, even if you sell your soul to the Yozis and sacrifice a five-dot artifact. You can't build a [[NThus_Spake_Zaraholden/InfernalsEvilorNot/A]] artifact to do it. You can't invent an Essence 10 Charm. You can't give up everything you have and are. You can't have take-backsies. The things you do have consequences and you have to live with and deal with them.
 And I imagine the Exalted care about death exactly as much as the average heroic person does, which is to say, they're absolutely terrified of the whole notion, but maybe they have something they value enough to put it above their own life. They're certainly not blasé about the thought of dying.
 ----
 == Infernals and Leashes ==
 Specifically because they're "not that terrible," as you put it. A Green Sun Prince can save the world (or, hell, forge new worlds) as he is. An Abyssal can't. He can't truly, effectively oppose the Neverborn the way a Solar can. Not as an Abyssal. The only way to realize the heroic potential some Abyssals strive for is to quit being Abyssals.
@@ Line 101: / Line 104: @@
 Infernals are not in that position. They have a leash, but they can jerk it out of the hands of their masters eventually. They have more freedom than Abyssals, and more self-determination. They don't need redemption into a different kind of Exalt to change the course they're on.
 ----
 == Cthulhu Was A Chump ==
@@ Line 206: / Line 211: @@
 ----
 == Mercenary Infernals ==
@@ Line 214: / Line 220: @@
 There is really nothing at ''all'' stopping that kind of Infernal.
 == Approaching Exalted Morality ==
@@ Line 220: / Line 227: @@
 If you approach Exalted from the perspective that you already, 100%, down to the detail, know what good and evil and right and wrong are in all their particulars, then the game's probably going to fall flat for you on several levels. It's explicitly structured to make you sit down and think about and re-evaluate these things, by presenting sympathetic groups (based loosely on major concepts from our common cultural and/or historical mythology, often with parallels to current real-world concerns), which have understandable goals and motivations and mutually exclusive agendas.
 == Two Different Perspectives ==
@@ Line 247: / Line 255: @@
 ----
 == Can They Escape? ==

@@ Line 11: / Line 11: @@
 ----
-[#DoYozisChooseEvilInfernals]
+[#[[DoYozisChooseEvilInfernals]]]
 == Do Yozis Choose Evil GSPs? ==
@@ Line 26: / Line 26: @@
 ----
-[#HowYozisThink]
+[#[[HowYozisThink]]]
 == How the Yozis Think ==
@@ Line 89: / Line 89: @@
 ----
-[#ExaltedAndConsequences]
+[#[[ExaltedAndConsequences]]]
 == Exalted and Consequences ==
-Exalted, as a game, isn't designed to emulate Ancient World traditional mythic stories. It's designed to subvert them by injecting modern rational analysis and consequences. To say that Exaltation makes one immune to consequences is to completely and totally miss the point of the game. This is why there is no resurrection magic in Exalted, even if you sell your soul to the Yozis and sacrifice a five-dot artifact. You can't build a N/A artifact to do it. You can't invent an Essence 10 Charm. You can't give up everything you have and are. You can't have take-backsies. The things you do have consequences and you have to live with and deal with them.
+Exalted, as a game, isn't designed to emulate Ancient World traditional mythic stories. It's designed to subvert them by injecting modern rational analysis and consequences. To say that Exaltation makes one immune to consequences is to completely and totally miss the point of the game. This is why there is no resurrection magic in Exalted, even if you sell your soul to the Yozis and sacrifice a five-dot artifact. You can't build a N[[/A]] artifact to do it. You can't invent an Essence 10 Charm. You can't give up everything you have and are. You can't have take-backsies. The things you do have consequences and you have to live with and deal with them.
 And I imagine the Exalted care about death exactly as much as the average heroic person does, which is to say, they're absolutely terrified of the whole notion, but maybe they have something they value enough to put it above their own life. They're certainly not blasé about the thought of dying.
 ----
-[#InfernalLeashes]
+[#[[InfernalLeashes]]]
 == Infernals and Leashes ==
@@ Line 211: / Line 211: @@
 ----
-[#MercenaryInfernals]
+[#[[MercenaryInfernals]]]
 == Mercenary Infernals ==
@@ Line 220: / Line 220: @@
 There is really nothing at ''all'' stopping that kind of Infernal.
-[#ExaltedMorality]
+[#[[ExaltedMorality]]]
 == Approaching Exalted Morality ==
@@ Line 255: / Line 255: @@
 ----
-[#YoziEscape]
+[#[[YoziEscape]]]
 == Can They Escape? ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 15:07, 17 July 2009
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	But I didn't write chapter one or talk to the guy who did, so. It's not very visible there. Just in the Storytelling chapter.		But I didn't write chapter one or talk to the guy who did, so. It's not very visible there. Just in the Storytelling chapter.
	----		----
		+
		+	== Can They Escape? ==
		+
		+	During the writing of the book, there was actually this enormous row over the topic of Yozi escape. Neall Price (Storytelling chapter) wanted to hew to Rebecca Borgstrom's original vision for the Yozis, i.e., the Reclamation is objectively unworkable, escape is impossible, all the Infernals can do is ruin Creation to no avail or realize the insane purposelessness of the Yozis' plan and react accordingly. This would have been spelled out in plain english.
		+
		+	Neph pretty much hit the roof and they spent a couple of days slugging it out over the topic. The objection was that impossible-Yozi-escape had been all very well and good when they were locked up in Hell with a bunch of NPCs, but that it was lame to have Infernals as the only purpose-built Exalted who objectively cannot attain the intended win-condition for which they were created. While it was okay for the Yozis to be born to lose, it was not okay for the Infernals.
		+
		+	In the end, we got the Storytelling chapter you see today, which urges you to consider very carefully whether your game will present the Reclamation as the brilliant masterstroke of the Yozis, or a mad, doomed, poisonous assault on Creation fueled by nothing more than the Ebon Dragon's spite.

@@ Line 206: / Line 206: @@
 ----
-=== Mercenary Infernals ===
+== Mercenary Infernals ==
 Addendum: You know what's even harder to find than a deliberately, dedicatedly evil person?
@@ Line 219: / Line 219: @@
 If you approach Exalted from the perspective that you already, 100%, down to the detail, know what good and evil and right and wrong are in all their particulars, then the game's probably going to fall flat for you on several levels. It's explicitly structured to make you sit down and think about and re-evaluate these things, by presenting sympathetic groups (based loosely on major concepts from our common cultural and/or historical mythology, often with parallels to current real-world concerns), which have understandable goals and motivations and mutually exclusive agendas.

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:55, 17 July 2009
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	One who's evangelical for evil. The kind of people Malfeas tends to like as ideal slayers, as an example? They tend to be pretty mercenary. An Infernal could still be a complete asshole, and turn on the Yozis simply because the gods give him a better offer. Lord knows plenty of the Solars were total jerkoffs. They were just jerkoffs on Creation's payroll.		One who's evangelical for evil. The kind of people Malfeas tends to like as ideal slayers, as an example? They tend to be pretty mercenary. An Infernal could still be a complete asshole, and turn on the Yozis simply because the gods give him a better offer. Lord knows plenty of the Solars were total jerkoffs. They were just jerkoffs on Creation's payroll.

−	There is really nothing at ''all'' stopping that kind of Infernal.	+	There is really nothing at ''all'' stopping that kind of Infernal.
		+
		+	== Approaching Exalted Morality ==
		+
		+	My, this thread derailed into chasing a whole bunch of red herrings.
		+
		+	If you approach Exalted from the perspective that you already, 100%, down to the detail, know what good and evil and right and wrong are in all their particulars, then the game's probably going to fall flat for you on several levels. It's explicitly structured to make you sit down and think about and re-evaluate these things, by presenting sympathetic groups (based loosely on major concepts from our common cultural and/or historical mythology, often with parallels to current real-world concerns), which have understandable goals and motivations and mutually exclusive agendas.

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:53, 17 July 2009
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	Answer me this: It's established that plenty of Abyssals end up having second thoughts about the whole 'killing everything' routine. What makes Infernals such utter, unconditional blackguards in comparison, when they didn't make even half as nasty a deal as the Abyssals did?		Answer me this: It's established that plenty of Abyssals end up having second thoughts about the whole 'killing everything' routine. What makes Infernals such utter, unconditional blackguards in comparison, when they didn't make even half as nasty a deal as the Abyssals did?
		+	----
		+
		+	=== Mercenary Infernals ===
		+
		+	Addendum: You know what's even harder to find than a deliberately, dedicatedly evil person?
		+
		+	One who's evangelical for evil. The kind of people Malfeas tends to like as ideal slayers, as an example? They tend to be pretty mercenary. An Infernal could still be a complete asshole, and turn on the Yozis simply because the gods give him a better offer. Lord knows plenty of the Solars were total jerkoffs. They were just jerkoffs on Creation's payroll.
		+
		+	There is really nothing at ''all'' stopping that kind of Infernal.