SpeedFix - Revision history

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IanPrice: Oops.

2006-05-31T20:09:43Z

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Second Edition is nice, but there are still a few lingering problems.

Ticks and speed are pretty nifty, but the problem is it becomes severly unbalanced when one person is much faster than another. The problem isn't that they get more attacks or faster DV refreshes. Charms can give you much larger bonuses in those areas than speed will. The problem is the way it speed interacts with charms, and one charm per action

Observe: A vs B

We will say A has speed 5, B has speed 2.

#A and B go. B notes how A reacts and can act based on this
#No action.
#B goes again here. Since B knows A can't do anything. B can use COMBO OF DOOM!! *see below*
#No action.
#B has a DV refersh before A can react! Notably, B can select a charm to use to defend from A!
#A would go again here if they survive

Note that B can act in such a ways as to elicit a reaction from and then exploit that opening. Without a chance for A to react.

Counter arguments: 1)Counterattacks? : They don't help. B can just defend from them using B's combo. 2)Your gimping your turn length charms: You can always act slower if want. Say use aim or something.

Why does this happen: Because B's speed is less than half of A's. Note that base speeds given in the book are 4-7, so this can't happen. The problem is artifacts and charms can change it.

== The SpeedFix ==

There is a hard speed limit at 3. Anything that would reduce speed below 3 increases rate by 1 instead. This makes these reductions somewhat useful. Rate is usefull, but high rate is inherently self limiting, so I think it works.

: Now, I'd a alow higher essence charms to go below this, but I put them in a similar catagory to Fully Independant Actions(Thank Azurelight), so they should be around Essence 5 or so.

===== Comments =====
Begin devious: So - what effects can I use to up my opponent's speed rating? If I've got a 3, how can I force him into a 6-7 range? -- GreenLantern

I Employed this, but with the clause that charms can lower speed below 3. The reason I had for this is twofold. First, I suspect Lunar mecnics might be balanced around this. Second, it is too valuble a mechnaic for High level chamrs and, I dare say, not much worse then fully independant actions were in X1-[[Azurelight]]

:Well, fully independant actions were incredibly powerful in X1, not to mention being Essence 5. I also don't trust the STC to much. Basicly, I had people wanting custom speed reducing charms and you got this arms-race to zero effect. Then everyone ends up with speed 1, and it's almost like the old turn system again. - FlowsLikeBits

Yeah, I agree. Its shoulden't be easy. I agree with the above -[[Azurelight]]

A different fix I've seen elsewhere was to just double all Speed ratings, but keep all Speed reductions the same. As I've not tried even base 2e, much less patched, I have no idea how well this might work. - [[David.]]

Much like the debate about low and high initiative in X1, I am not convinced that anything which isn't supposed to be powerful is getting weight it shouldn't. Low speed is supposed to be powerful, and the lowest speed attainable with a weapon in the base book is, in fact, 3. Already, the slowest weapons suffer this problem against Jade Short Daiklaves. As far as I'm concerned, that's just one of the penalties you face for using a Grand Grimcleaver or a Grand Grimscythe as your primary weapon! Let alone using a non-artifact weapon of such a slow speed. Yet, even if you use a weapon like that, you have the option to Guard, forcing your opponent to show his hand before you act, or else creating a standoff. The trade-off you are hoping for with the huge weapon is that if you do get an opening, the extra times your opponent will go won't hurt you because they'll be dead. Even without magic, though, if someone misses with a greatsword, his opponent wielding a pair of quick blades will (assuming equal skill) have plenty of time to gut him before he can whip it around again. - IanPrice
:I believe you can get below 3 in the core by using not only Jade Short Daiklaves, but adding on other Jade acoutrements as well. If I recall correctly, page 381 of the 2nd Ed core notes that Jade Hearthstone Bracers will net you an additional -1. Thus, you can have a 2 speed to start, fairly easily, as DB's (at least) can cough up enough background points for a pair of two-point artifacts before they even wake up in the morning. Even Celestials, if they wanted to waste the mote commitment, can do the same thing. Then, at character creation, you've got DB's (of all sorts!) with speed 2 attacks. No wonder the poor Celestials, with their default 5 (and 4 if they buy a nice weapon) are worried. Having nearly 3 times as many actions is a big deal. (DB's act on 1,3,5,7,9, repeat, while Celestials act on 1,6, repeat). -- GreenLantern, ''jumping in with facts, and facts alone''

:True, I forgot about that. Statement about lowest speed retracted, but my thoughts that the benefits of that low speed are not excessive stand. After all, a Jade Short Daiklave is doing Stength + 5L, with no increase to minimum damage. Same with a Reaper Daiklave, which even has a higher rate. At the same cost, a Solar can be doing Strength + 12L with a Reaver Daiklave, with a base minimum of 3, and the same accuracy and rate. The Speed bonus goes well with DB reflexive charm activation. Solars are weighted towards using Combos of offense and defense charms anyway. The one thing I will say, potentially in favor of the nerf, is that this makes Jade into probably the most powerful magical material for weapons. While this doesn't particularly bother me, I can see how it might be an issue of power affecting flavor. - IanPrice

IanPrice: Oops.

2006-05-31T20:09:29Z

Oops.

GreenLantern: How to get speed 2, in canon 2nd ed core only. Before charms.

2006-05-31T18:06:51Z

How to get speed 2, in canon 2nd ed core only. Before charms.

@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 <b>Why does this happen</b>: Because B's speed is less than half of A's.  Note that base speeds given in the book are 4-7, so this can't happen. The problem is artifacts and charms can change it.
-== The SpeedFix ==
+== The [[SpeedFix]] ==
 <i>There is a hard speed limit at 3</i>. Anything that would reduce speed below 3 increases rate by 1 instead. This makes these reductions somewhat useful. Rate is usefull, but high rate is inherently self limiting, so I think it works.
@@ Line 27: / Line 27: @@
 ===== Comments =====
-Begin devious: So - what effects can I use to up my opponent's speed rating? If I've got a 3, how can I force him into a 6-7 range? -- GreenLantern
+Begin devious: So - what effects can I use to up my opponent's speed rating? If I've got a 3, how can I force him into a 6-7 range? -- [[GreenLantern]]
 I Employed this, but with the clause that charms <i>can</i> lower speed below 3. The reason I had for this is twofold. First, I suspect Lunar mecnics might be balanced around this. Second, it is too valuble a mechnaic for High level chamrs and, I dare say, not much worse then fully independant actions were in X1-[[Azurelight]]
-:Well, fully independant actions were incredibly powerful in X1, not to mention being Essence 5.  I also don't trust the STC to much. Basicly, I had people wanting custom speed reducing charms and you got this arms-race to zero effect. Then everyone ends up with speed 1, and it's almost like the old turn system again. - FlowsLikeBits
+:Well, fully independant actions were incredibly powerful in X1, not to mention being Essence 5.  I also don't trust the STC to much. Basicly, I had people wanting custom speed reducing charms and you got this arms-race to zero effect. Then everyone ends up with speed 1, and it's almost like the old turn system again. - [[FlowsLikeBits]]
 Yeah, I agree. Its shoulden't be easy. I agree with the above -[[Azurelight]]
@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 A different fix I've seen elsewhere was to just double all Speed ratings, but keep all Speed reductions the same. As I've not tried even base 2e, much less patched, I have no idea how well this might work. - [[David.]]
-Much like the debate about low and high initiative in X1, I am not convinced that anything which isn't supposed to be powerful is getting weight it shouldn't. Low speed is supposed to be powerful, and the lowest speed attainable with a weapon in the base book is, in fact, 3. Already, the slowest weapons suffer this problem against Jade Short Daiklaves. As far as I'm concerned, that's just one of the penalties you face for using a Grand Grimcleaver or a Grand Grimscythe as your primary weapon! Let alone using a non-artifact weapon of such a slow speed. Yet, even if you use a weapon like that, you have the option to Guard, forcing your opponent to show his hand before you act, or else creating a standoff. The trade-off you are hoping for with the huge weapon is that if you do get an opening, the extra times your opponent will go won't hurt you because they'll be dead. Even without magic, though, if someone misses with a greatsword, his opponent wielding a pair of quick blades will (assuming equal skill) have plenty of time to gut him before he can whip it around again. - IanPrice
+Much like the debate about low and high initiative in X1, I am not convinced that anything which isn't supposed to be powerful is getting weight it shouldn't. Low speed is supposed to be powerful, and the lowest speed attainable with a weapon in the base book is, in fact, 3. Already, the slowest weapons suffer this problem against Jade Short Daiklaves. As far as I'm concerned, that's just one of the penalties you face for using a Grand Grimcleaver or a Grand Grimscythe as your primary weapon! Let alone using a non-artifact weapon of such a slow speed. Yet, even if you use a weapon like that, you have the option to Guard, forcing your opponent to show his hand before you act, or else creating a standoff. The trade-off you are hoping for with the huge weapon is that if you do get an opening, the extra times your opponent will go won't hurt you because they'll be dead. Even without magic, though, if someone misses with a greatsword, his opponent wielding a pair of quick blades will (assuming equal skill) have plenty of time to gut him before he can whip it around again. - [[IanPrice]]
-:I believe you can get below 3 in the core by using not only Jade Short Daiklaves, but adding on other Jade acoutrements as well. If I recall correctly, page 381 of the 2nd Ed core notes that Jade Hearthstone Bracers will net you an additional -1. Thus, you can have a 2 speed to start, fairly easily, as DB's (at least) can cough up enough background points for a pair of two-point artifacts before they even wake up in the morning. Even Celestials, if they wanted to waste the mote commitment, can do the same thing. Then, at character creation, you've got DB's (of all sorts!) with speed 2 attacks. No wonder the poor Celestials, with their default 5 (and 4 if they buy a nice weapon) are worried. Having nearly 3 times as many actions is a big deal. (DB's act on 1,3,5,7,9, repeat, while Celestials act on 1,6, repeat). -- GreenLantern, ''jumping in with facts, and facts alone''
+:I believe you can get below 3 in the core by using not only Jade Short Daiklaves, but adding on other Jade acoutrements as well. If I recall correctly, page 381 of the 2nd Ed core notes that Jade Hearthstone Bracers will net you an additional -1. Thus, you can have a 2 speed to start, fairly easily, as DB's (at least) can cough up enough background points for a pair of two-point artifacts before they even wake up in the morning. Even Celestials, if they wanted to waste the mote commitment, can do the same thing. Then, at character creation, you've got DB's (of all sorts!) with speed 2 attacks. No wonder the poor Celestials, with their default 5 (and 4 if they buy a nice weapon) are worried. Having nearly 3 times as many actions is a big deal. (DB's act on 1,3,5,7,9, repeat, while Celestials act on 1,6, repeat). -- [[GreenLantern]], ''jumping in with facts, and facts alone''
 :True, I forgot about that. Statement about lowest speed retracted, but my thoughts that the benefits of that low speed are not excessive stand. After all, a Jade Short Daiklave is doing Stength + 5L, with no increase to minimum damage. Same with a Reaper Daiklave, which even has a higher rate. At the same cost, a Solar can be doing Strength + 12L with a Reaver Daiklave, with a base minimum of 3, and the same accuracy and rate. The Speed bonus goes well with DB reflexive charm activation. Solars are weighted towards using Combos of offense and defense charms anyway. The one thing I will say, potentially in favor of the nerf, is that this makes Jade into probably the most powerful magical material for weapons. While this doesn't particularly bother me, I can see how it might be an issue of power affecting flavor. - IanPrice

@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 <b>Why does this happen</b>: Because B's speed is less than half of A's.  Note that base speeds given in the book are 4-7, so this can't happen. The problem is artifacts and charms can change it.
-== The SpeedFix ==
+== The [[SpeedFix]] ==
 <i>There is a hard speed limit at 3</i>. Anything that would reduce speed below 3 increases rate by 1 instead. This makes these reductions somewhat useful. Rate is usefull, but high rate is inherently self limiting, so I think it works.
@@ Line 27: / Line 27: @@
 ===== Comments =====
-Begin devious: So - what effects can I use to up my opponent's speed rating? If I've got a 3, how can I force him into a 6-7 range? -- GreenLantern
+Begin devious: So - what effects can I use to up my opponent's speed rating? If I've got a 3, how can I force him into a 6-7 range? -- [[GreenLantern]]
 I Employed this, but with the clause that charms <i>can</i> lower speed below 3. The reason I had for this is twofold. First, I suspect Lunar mecnics might be balanced around this. Second, it is too valuble a mechnaic for High level chamrs and, I dare say, not much worse then fully independant actions were in X1-[[Azurelight]]
-:Well, fully independant actions were incredibly powerful in X1, not to mention being Essence 5.  I also don't trust the STC to much. Basicly, I had people wanting custom speed reducing charms and you got this arms-race to zero effect. Then everyone ends up with speed 1, and it's almost like the old turn system again. - FlowsLikeBits
+:Well, fully independant actions were incredibly powerful in X1, not to mention being Essence 5.  I also don't trust the STC to much. Basicly, I had people wanting custom speed reducing charms and you got this arms-race to zero effect. Then everyone ends up with speed 1, and it's almost like the old turn system again. - [[FlowsLikeBits]]
 Yeah, I agree. Its shoulden't be easy. I agree with the above -[[Azurelight]]
@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 A different fix I've seen elsewhere was to just double all Speed ratings, but keep all Speed reductions the same. As I've not tried even base 2e, much less patched, I have no idea how well this might work. - [[David.]]
-Much like the debate about low and high initiative in X1, I am not convinced that anything which isn't supposed to be powerful is getting weight it shouldn't. Low speed is supposed to be powerful, and the lowest speed attainable with a weapon in the base book is, in fact, 3. Already, the slowest weapons suffer this problem against Jade Short Daiklaves. As far as I'm concerned, that's just one of the penalties you face for using a Grand Grimcleaver or a Grand Grimscythe as your primary weapon! Let alone using a non-artifact weapon of such a slow speed. Yet, even if you use a weapon like that, you have the option to Guard, forcing your opponent to show his hand before you act, or else creating a standoff. The trade-off you are hoping for with the huge weapon is that if you do get an opening, the extra times your opponent will go won't hurt you because they'll be dead. Even without magic, though, if someone misses with a greatsword, his opponent wielding a pair of quick blades will (assuming equal skill) have plenty of time to gut him before he can whip it around again. - IanPrice
+Much like the debate about low and high initiative in X1, I am not convinced that anything which isn't supposed to be powerful is getting weight it shouldn't. Low speed is supposed to be powerful, and the lowest speed attainable with a weapon in the base book is, in fact, 3. Already, the slowest weapons suffer this problem against Jade Short Daiklaves. As far as I'm concerned, that's just one of the penalties you face for using a Grand Grimcleaver or a Grand Grimscythe as your primary weapon! Let alone using a non-artifact weapon of such a slow speed. Yet, even if you use a weapon like that, you have the option to Guard, forcing your opponent to show his hand before you act, or else creating a standoff. The trade-off you are hoping for with the huge weapon is that if you do get an opening, the extra times your opponent will go won't hurt you because they'll be dead. Even without magic, though, if someone misses with a greatsword, his opponent wielding a pair of quick blades will (assuming equal skill) have plenty of time to gut him before he can whip it around again. - [[IanPrice]]
-:I believe you can get below 3 in the core by using not only Jade Short Daiklaves, but adding on other Jade acoutrements as well. If I recall correctly, page 381 of the 2nd Ed core notes that Jade Hearthstone Bracers will net you an additional -1. Thus, you can have a 2 speed to start, fairly easily, as DB's (at least) can cough up enough background points for a pair of two-point artifacts before they even wake up in the morning. Even Celestials, if they wanted to waste the mote commitment, can do the same thing. Then, at character creation, you've got DB's (of all sorts!) with speed 2 attacks. No wonder the poor Celestials, with their default 5 (and 4 if they buy a nice weapon) are worried. Having nearly 3 times as many actions is a big deal. (DB's act on 1,3,5,7,9, repeat, while Celestials act on 1,6, repeat). -- GreenLantern, ''jumping in with facts, and facts alone''
+:I believe you can get below 3 in the core by using not only Jade Short Daiklaves, but adding on other Jade acoutrements as well. If I recall correctly, page 381 of the 2nd Ed core notes that Jade Hearthstone Bracers will net you an additional -1. Thus, you can have a 2 speed to start, fairly easily, as DB's (at least) can cough up enough background points for a pair of two-point artifacts before they even wake up in the morning. Even Celestials, if they wanted to waste the mote commitment, can do the same thing. Then, at character creation, you've got DB's (of all sorts!) with speed 2 attacks. No wonder the poor Celestials, with their default 5 (and 4 if they buy a nice weapon) are worried. Having nearly 3 times as many actions is a big deal. (DB's act on 1,3,5,7,9, repeat, while Celestials act on 1,6, repeat). -- [[GreenLantern]], ''jumping in with facts, and facts alone''
-:True, I forgot about that. Statement about lowest speed retracted, but my thoughts that the benefits of that low speed are not excessive stand. After all, a Jade Short Daiklave is doing Stength + 5L, with no increase to minimum damage. Same with a Reaper Daiklave, which even has a higher rate. At the same cost, a Solar can be doing Strength + 12L with a Reaver Daiklave, with a base minimum of 3, and the same accuracy and rate. The Speed bonus goes well with DB reflexive charm activation. Solars are weighted towards using Combos of offense and defense charms anyway. The one thing I will say, potentially in favor of the nerf, is that this makes Jade into probably the most powerful magical material for weapons. While this doesn't particularly bother me, I can see how it might be an issue of power affecting flavor. - IanPrice
+:True, I forgot about that. Statement about lowest speed retracted, but my thoughts that the benefits of that low speed are not excessive stand. After all, a Jade Short Daiklave is doing Stength + 5L, with no increase to minimum damage. Same with a Reaper Daiklave, which even has a higher rate. At the same cost, a Solar can be doing Strength + 12L with a Reaver Daiklave, with a base minimum of 3, and the same accuracy and rate. The Speed bonus goes well with DB reflexive charm activation. Solars are weighted towards using Combos of offense and defense charms anyway. The one thing I will say, potentially in favor of the nerf, is that this makes Jade into probably the most powerful magical material for weapons. While this doesn't particularly bother me, I can see how it might be an issue of power affecting flavor. - [[IanPrice]]

@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 <b>Why does this happen</b>: Because B's speed is less than half of A's.  Note that base speeds given in the book are 4-7, so this can't happen. The problem is artifacts and charms can change it.
-== The [[SpeedFix]] ==
+== The SpeedFix ==
 <i>There is a hard speed limit at 3</i>. Anything that would reduce speed below 3 increases rate by 1 instead. This makes these reductions somewhat useful. Rate is usefull, but high rate is inherently self limiting, so I think it works.
@@ Line 27: / Line 27: @@
 ===== Comments =====
-Begin devious: So - what effects can I use to up my opponent's speed rating? If I've got a 3, how can I force him into a 6-7 range? -- [[GreenLantern]]
+Begin devious: So - what effects can I use to up my opponent's speed rating? If I've got a 3, how can I force him into a 6-7 range? -- GreenLantern
 I Employed this, but with the clause that charms <i>can</i> lower speed below 3. The reason I had for this is twofold. First, I suspect Lunar mecnics might be balanced around this. Second, it is too valuble a mechnaic for High level chamrs and, I dare say, not much worse then fully independant actions were in X1-[[Azurelight]]
-:Well, fully independant actions were incredibly powerful in X1, not to mention being Essence 5.  I also don't trust the STC to much. Basicly, I had people wanting custom speed reducing charms and you got this arms-race to zero effect. Then everyone ends up with speed 1, and it's almost like the old turn system again. - [[FlowsLikeBits]]
+:Well, fully independant actions were incredibly powerful in X1, not to mention being Essence 5.  I also don't trust the STC to much. Basicly, I had people wanting custom speed reducing charms and you got this arms-race to zero effect. Then everyone ends up with speed 1, and it's almost like the old turn system again. - FlowsLikeBits
 Yeah, I agree. Its shoulden't be easy. I agree with the above -[[Azurelight]]
@@ Line 37: / Line 37: @@
 A different fix I've seen elsewhere was to just double all Speed ratings, but keep all Speed reductions the same. As I've not tried even base 2e, much less patched, I have no idea how well this might work. - [[David.]]
-Much like the debate about low and high initiative in X1, I am not convinced that anything which isn't supposed to be powerful is getting weight it shouldn't. Low speed is supposed to be powerful, and the lowest speed attainable with a weapon in the base book is, in fact, 3. Already, the slowest weapons suffer this problem against Jade Short Daiklaves. As far as I'm concerned, that's just one of the penalties you face for using a Grand Grimcleaver or a Grand Grimscythe as your primary weapon! Let alone using a non-artifact weapon of such a slow speed. Yet, even if you use a weapon like that, you have the option to Guard, forcing your opponent to show his hand before you act, or else creating a standoff. The trade-off you are hoping for with the huge weapon is that if you do get an opening, the extra times your opponent will go won't hurt you because they'll be dead. Even without magic, though, if someone misses with a greatsword, his opponent wielding a pair of quick blades will (assuming equal skill) have plenty of time to gut him before he can whip it around again. - [[IanPrice]]
+Much like the debate about low and high initiative in X1, I am not convinced that anything which isn't supposed to be powerful is getting weight it shouldn't. Low speed is supposed to be powerful, and the lowest speed attainable with a weapon in the base book is, in fact, 3. Already, the slowest weapons suffer this problem against Jade Short Daiklaves. As far as I'm concerned, that's just one of the penalties you face for using a Grand Grimcleaver or a Grand Grimscythe as your primary weapon! Let alone using a non-artifact weapon of such a slow speed. Yet, even if you use a weapon like that, you have the option to Guard, forcing your opponent to show his hand before you act, or else creating a standoff. The trade-off you are hoping for with the huge weapon is that if you do get an opening, the extra times your opponent will go won't hurt you because they'll be dead. Even without magic, though, if someone misses with a greatsword, his opponent wielding a pair of quick blades will (assuming equal skill) have plenty of time to gut him before he can whip it around again. - IanPrice
-:I believe you can get below 3 in the core by using not only Jade Short Daiklaves, but adding on other Jade acoutrements as well. If I recall correctly, page 381 of the 2nd Ed core notes that Jade Hearthstone Bracers will net you an additional -1. Thus, you can have a 2 speed to start, fairly easily, as DB's (at least) can cough up enough background points for a pair of two-point artifacts before they even wake up in the morning. Even Celestials, if they wanted to waste the mote commitment, can do the same thing. Then, at character creation, you've got DB's (of all sorts!) with speed 2 attacks. No wonder the poor Celestials, with their default 5 (and 4 if they buy a nice weapon) are worried. Having nearly 3 times as many actions is a big deal. (DB's act on 1,3,5,7,9, repeat, while Celestials act on 1,6, repeat). -- [[GreenLantern]], ''jumping in with facts, and facts alone''
+:I believe you can get below 3 in the core by using not only Jade Short Daiklaves, but adding on other Jade acoutrements as well. If I recall correctly, page 381 of the 2nd Ed core notes that Jade Hearthstone Bracers will net you an additional -1. Thus, you can have a 2 speed to start, fairly easily, as DB's (at least) can cough up enough background points for a pair of two-point artifacts before they even wake up in the morning. Even Celestials, if they wanted to waste the mote commitment, can do the same thing. Then, at character creation, you've got DB's (of all sorts!) with speed 2 attacks. No wonder the poor Celestials, with their default 5 (and 4 if they buy a nice weapon) are worried. Having nearly 3 times as many actions is a big deal. (DB's act on 1,3,5,7,9, repeat, while Celestials act on 1,6, repeat). -- GreenLantern, ''jumping in with facts, and facts alone''

← Older revision	Revision as of 01:17, 6 April 2010
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← Older revision		Revision as of 20:09, 31 May 2006
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	Much like the debate about low and high initiative in X1, I am not convinced that anything which isn't supposed to be powerful is getting weight it shouldn't. Low speed is supposed to be powerful, and the lowest speed attainable with a weapon in the base book is, in fact, 3. Already, the slowest weapons suffer this problem against Jade Short Daiklaves. As far as I'm concerned, that's just one of the penalties you face for using a Grand Grimcleaver or a Grand Grimscythe as your primary weapon! Let alone using a non-artifact weapon of such a slow speed. Yet, even if you use a weapon like that, you have the option to Guard, forcing your opponent to show his hand before you act, or else creating a standoff. The trade-off you are hoping for with the huge weapon is that if you do get an opening, the extra times your opponent will go won't hurt you because they'll be dead. Even without magic, though, if someone misses with a greatsword, his opponent wielding a pair of quick blades will (assuming equal skill) have plenty of time to gut him before he can whip it around again. - IanPrice		Much like the debate about low and high initiative in X1, I am not convinced that anything which isn't supposed to be powerful is getting weight it shouldn't. Low speed is supposed to be powerful, and the lowest speed attainable with a weapon in the base book is, in fact, 3. Already, the slowest weapons suffer this problem against Jade Short Daiklaves. As far as I'm concerned, that's just one of the penalties you face for using a Grand Grimcleaver or a Grand Grimscythe as your primary weapon! Let alone using a non-artifact weapon of such a slow speed. Yet, even if you use a weapon like that, you have the option to Guard, forcing your opponent to show his hand before you act, or else creating a standoff. The trade-off you are hoping for with the huge weapon is that if you do get an opening, the extra times your opponent will go won't hurt you because they'll be dead. Even without magic, though, if someone misses with a greatsword, his opponent wielding a pair of quick blades will (assuming equal skill) have plenty of time to gut him before he can whip it around again. - IanPrice
	:I believe you can get below 3 in the core by using not only Jade Short Daiklaves, but adding on other Jade acoutrements as well. If I recall correctly, page 381 of the 2nd Ed core notes that Jade Hearthstone Bracers will net you an additional -1. Thus, you can have a 2 speed to start, fairly easily, as DB's (at least) can cough up enough background points for a pair of two-point artifacts before they even wake up in the morning. Even Celestials, if they wanted to waste the mote commitment, can do the same thing. Then, at character creation, you've got DB's (of all sorts!) with speed 2 attacks. No wonder the poor Celestials, with their default 5 (and 4 if they buy a nice weapon) are worried. Having nearly 3 times as many actions is a big deal. (DB's act on 1,3,5,7,9, repeat, while Celestials act on 1,6, repeat). -- GreenLantern, ''jumping in with facts, and facts alone''		:I believe you can get below 3 in the core by using not only Jade Short Daiklaves, but adding on other Jade acoutrements as well. If I recall correctly, page 381 of the 2nd Ed core notes that Jade Hearthstone Bracers will net you an additional -1. Thus, you can have a 2 speed to start, fairly easily, as DB's (at least) can cough up enough background points for a pair of two-point artifacts before they even wake up in the morning. Even Celestials, if they wanted to waste the mote commitment, can do the same thing. Then, at character creation, you've got DB's (of all sorts!) with speed 2 attacks. No wonder the poor Celestials, with their default 5 (and 4 if they buy a nice weapon) are worried. Having nearly 3 times as many actions is a big deal. (DB's act on 1,3,5,7,9, repeat, while Celestials act on 1,6, repeat). -- GreenLantern, ''jumping in with facts, and facts alone''
		+	:True, I forgot about that. Statement about lowest speed retracted, but my thoughts that the benefits of that low speed are not excessive stand. After all, a Jade Short Daiklave is doing Stength + 5L, with no increase to minimum damage. Same with a Reaper Daiklave, which even has a higher rate. At the same cost, a Solar can be doing Strength + 12L with a Reaver Daiklave, with a base minimum of 3, and the same accuracy and rate. The Speed bonus goes well with DB reflexive charm activation. Solars are weighted towards using Combos of offense and defense charms anyway. The one thing I will say, potentially in favor of the nerf, is that this makes Jade into probably the most powerful magical material for weapons. While this doesn't particularly bother me, I can see how it might be an issue of power affecting flavor. - IanPrice