SolarLore/LastHero - Revision history

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2005-10-25T07:19:30Z

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IanPrice: Reply-to-comment-fu.

2005-10-20T02:12:07Z

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2005-10-20T01:37:30Z

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 ::If we're going to compare them then it's also a <i>Survival</i> charm, it's not as though they parallel each other in many ways. The way I see it is that whilst a certain amount of skill in survival (well, not very much at all really) is required to learn to harness the power of essence in blood harvested from living creatures, whilst an increase in Essence allows them to gain more power from the blood, whilst this is charm is a result of increased understanding and therefore a function of high your Lore rating is. I've always thought that charms being linked with Essence rather than the ability from which they flow was daft in all cases anyway, particularly when like Essence Engorgement Technique they have no, or very few, prerequisites as it allows you to nab it and use it with the same effectiveness as someone who's devoted to that ability and similiar abilites. When they're deeper in the tree linking them with Essence makes more sense to me. But... that's just me, another rebuttal and I'll shut up ^_^ - [[Injektilo]]
-:::Well, as I see it, many Alchie charms have an install cost becuase they are generally comparable to Solar charms, and almost all of them has more than one use, anyways their personall pool is join with [[SolarsSolarLore/LastHero/Abyssals]], its not <b>that</b> low. Ok, final modification, it is being reverted to Lore. It was originally intended to be an essence version of Ox-Body, so it follows ability. Also, seeing as their are more comments on that charm than my entire page, does anyone have any thoughts about the other charms, -- [[LastHero]] out.
+:::Well, as I see it, many Alchie charms have an install cost becuase they are generally comparable to Solar charms, and almost all of them has more than one use, anyways their personall pool is join with Solars/Abyssals, its not <b>that</b> low. Ok, final modification, it is being reverted to Lore. It was originally intended to be an essence version of Ox-Body, so it follows ability. Also, seeing as their are more comments on that charm than my entire page, does anyone have any thoughts about the other charms, -- [[LastHero]] out.
 It'd be kind of pointless to lower the Essence requirement of any of them except for Unconquerable Will, due to the Essence requirement of the Sorcery charms. Emerald requires 3, Sapphire 4, and Adamant 5 anyway. - [[IanPrice]]
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 ::Okay, let's do some bonus points/experience math here. Essence 3, 7 charms (you get 10 starting), and 5 in two (favored) abilities is... let's see... very possible with starting Bonus Points, without even taking Flaws (11 bonus point cost). Getting one dot and a starting charm in all Abilities is... not (1 dot in every ability can be done with starting Ability dots of 25; 15 bonus points + 8 flaw points can only buy 7 additional charms, and that's in favored abilities, meaning that at best 8 more charms would be needed, at 10 experience points per charm).
-::A basic dice-adder for any ability, as you noted, is an Ability 1[[SolarLore/LastHero/Essence]] 1 minimum charm with no prerequisites. However, these dice adders rarely add without conditions. I also have precedent for a multiple-ability charm being more expensive: Listener-Swaying Argument in Presence. It adds to Presence, Socialize, and Bureaucracy checks to persuade people, and costs 1 willpower + (2 motes per die).
+::A basic dice-adder for any ability, as you noted, is an Ability 1/Essence 1 minimum charm with no prerequisites. However, these dice adders rarely add without conditions. I also have precedent for a multiple-ability charm being more expensive: Listener-Swaying Argument in Presence. It adds to Presence, Socialize, and Bureaucracy checks to persuade people, and costs 1 willpower + (2 motes per die).
 ::In short, no, the prerequisites do not balance this extremely powerful charm out. Thus why I made my initial comment. Thus why I stick to my guns that this should be a very very expensive charm.
 :: - [[IanPrice]]

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	::::Ian, not to knock you down a few pegs, but working for WW won't get you very far with many of us. Other than Exalted, there really isn't that much I'm fond of from WW. But that isn't relevant to this discussion at all. Moving on, your analysis is still mostly correct, but relies on two faulty assumptions, as far as I can see. The first is that your assumptions are for another game. Exalted isn't another game. It's a game where the adage of "Is it cool? Could it happen in an awesome movie?" trumps most anything. In this case, it's very easy to imagine an old sage who simply knows <i>everything</i>. Admittedly, and again as you suggest, this might require something - study, perhaps? A night of sleep to focus on what you're getting? But still, the idea is sound. Just because the numbers are tough to work out doesn't make it bad. Second, and far more quantifiable, is that Essence is so much more than things like Generation, Arete, or Level. Essence, thank heavens, is a non-linear thing. A single use of an Essence 3 charm is generally far better than three uses of an Essence 2 charm. An Essence 4 charm is often the total extension of an Essence 2 charm, doing things like autosuccesses instead of dice, at full pool, for the scene. Most of the die adders are straight Ability 1, Essence 1. We're two Essence points higher already, plus about 9 ability points, and a metric ton of prerequisites. Those prerequisites are far more imporant than you might think, because while our Jack-of-All-Trades Sage is out studying the Wyld, those same charm slots are buying the Dawn caste things like HGD, Solar Counterattack, and Resistance charms. The Zenith is out buying his way straight to Tiger-Warrior Training, and stopping to pick up Excellent Strike on the way. Sure, now the Zenith and I can both add to Melee rolls, and in theory, I have a 'broader' dice adder, but what about one charm from now? I can either continue up this tree, or start the Melee tree from the bottom. The Zenith is now able to be far higher up the Melee tree, getting more and more powerful charms as he goes. The Core book says it best when they point out that higher-tree charms are better, for the same XP. The Core book also notes that having a few trees 'mostly' started is better than one really flushed out tree, because you're so much closer to so much cool stuff. This charm helps solidify that. Sure, you spent 7 charms, 10 ability points, and a three Essence charm to get where you're at. But now what? It's 3m per die, and other people are getting what you are, for cheaper. And they've got well rounded characters, ready to pluck such precious fruit as Ready in Eight Directions Stance, that you'll get nowhere near. At the end of the day, you might have some dice, but the actual abilities of others will be so much higher. Overall, I've got to say that it's quite reasonable such an investment, reaching so high in a tree, is quite reasonable. After all, your 'pinnacle' is just a big 'ole dice adder, while other trees of equivalent investment have monstrously powerful and wide-ranging effects of their own. I mean, sure you can dice-add, but the guy next to you can heal grievous wounds in under an hour. Which one of you is going to recruit better? - GregLink		::::Ian, not to knock you down a few pegs, but working for WW won't get you very far with many of us. Other than Exalted, there really isn't that much I'm fond of from WW. But that isn't relevant to this discussion at all. Moving on, your analysis is still mostly correct, but relies on two faulty assumptions, as far as I can see. The first is that your assumptions are for another game. Exalted isn't another game. It's a game where the adage of "Is it cool? Could it happen in an awesome movie?" trumps most anything. In this case, it's very easy to imagine an old sage who simply knows <i>everything</i>. Admittedly, and again as you suggest, this might require something - study, perhaps? A night of sleep to focus on what you're getting? But still, the idea is sound. Just because the numbers are tough to work out doesn't make it bad. Second, and far more quantifiable, is that Essence is so much more than things like Generation, Arete, or Level. Essence, thank heavens, is a non-linear thing. A single use of an Essence 3 charm is generally far better than three uses of an Essence 2 charm. An Essence 4 charm is often the total extension of an Essence 2 charm, doing things like autosuccesses instead of dice, at full pool, for the scene. Most of the die adders are straight Ability 1, Essence 1. We're two Essence points higher already, plus about 9 ability points, and a metric ton of prerequisites. Those prerequisites are far more imporant than you might think, because while our Jack-of-All-Trades Sage is out studying the Wyld, those same charm slots are buying the Dawn caste things like HGD, Solar Counterattack, and Resistance charms. The Zenith is out buying his way straight to Tiger-Warrior Training, and stopping to pick up Excellent Strike on the way. Sure, now the Zenith and I can both add to Melee rolls, and in theory, I have a 'broader' dice adder, but what about one charm from now? I can either continue up this tree, or start the Melee tree from the bottom. The Zenith is now able to be far higher up the Melee tree, getting more and more powerful charms as he goes. The Core book says it best when they point out that higher-tree charms are better, for the same XP. The Core book also notes that having a few trees 'mostly' started is better than one really flushed out tree, because you're so much closer to so much cool stuff. This charm helps solidify that. Sure, you spent 7 charms, 10 ability points, and a three Essence charm to get where you're at. But now what? It's 3m per die, and other people are getting what you are, for cheaper. And they've got well rounded characters, ready to pluck such precious fruit as Ready in Eight Directions Stance, that you'll get nowhere near. At the end of the day, you might have some dice, but the actual abilities of others will be so much higher. Overall, I've got to say that it's quite reasonable such an investment, reaching so high in a tree, is quite reasonable. After all, your 'pinnacle' is just a big 'ole dice adder, while other trees of equivalent investment have monstrously powerful and wide-ranging effects of their own. I mean, sure you can dice-add, but the guy next to you can heal grievous wounds in under an hour. Which one of you is going to recruit better? - GregLink
	:Yay, someone on my side. Erhm. Well, that is basically what I was getting at, sure you can add dice to any ability you like, but everyone else has powerfull abilities that do stuff that you cant do with a dice adder. Sure, you could rouse up the populace with your dice adding, or you could make them Tiger Warriors, a lot better. As a charm that is further into a tree than HGD or FLB, its still not a terribly useful charm, and by the time your essence 3, your into the field of scene length dice adders. -- [[LastHero]]		:Yay, someone on my side. Erhm. Well, that is basically what I was getting at, sure you can add dice to any ability you like, but everyone else has powerfull abilities that do stuff that you cant do with a dice adder. Sure, you could rouse up the populace with your dice adding, or you could make them Tiger Warriors, a lot better. As a charm that is further into a tree than HGD or FLB, its still not a terribly useful charm, and by the time your essence 3, your into the field of scene length dice adders. -- [[LastHero]]
		+	:: Glad I can support ya. Way I look at it, there's a lot of room out there for Exalted games, and while they might not think it fits their theme, to me it's both thematic and appropriate in power level. There's no reason there should be pages of people arguing over it, honestly. It's quite out-of-character for the Wiki as a whole to have this level of significant and nit-picky disagreement. Sure, there are some things that are discussed heavily, but this seems almost personal. Methinks a simple disclaimer of "This might not be appropriate for your games" would suffice, and we can move on. - GregLink
		+	:::Look, I'm not trying to say I have the final answer on everything. I was merely trying to establish ethos by saying I do get paid to do this stuff. Regardless, I've never been trying to say that the currently listed cost (3m per die) is bad. I've been trying to say that the cost suggested by Injektilo (1m per die) would be a bad thing to switch to. That's all. - IanPrice