Rulings/IsContestingAClinchAnAttack - Revision history

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'''Date asked:''' August 7, 2006 
'''Rule set:''' Second Edition 
'''Rules area:''' Clinching and resisting it.

In TrialByFire/ShunVersusMonkey, Monkey successfully clinched Shun. Next action comes in, and Monkey must maintain the clinch. To do this, both sides roll ([Strength or Dexterity] + Martial Arts). Monkey tries to use a custom MA charm that halves an opponent's attack pool, but the other player argued that the charm is not appropriate since the action is not an attack. This raises the question of what contesting a clinch actually is.

The following rules may help in resolving this:

* Exalted: Second Edition. Grappling, pg. 157-158
* Exalted: Second Edition. Unstoppable Force, Immovable Object defines what "attack" and "defense" is. Pg. 179

== Resolution ==

== Discussion ==
* Corebook, p. 179. An "attack" is an effect that damages or changes the Exalt's body, mind, spirit, or traits. A "defense" is an effect that prevents sunch an attack.

What is contesting a clinch? Who's the attacker? Who's the defender? Is it even an attack? It is intuitive to treat the initial attempt as an attack, even if the initiator simply wants to, say, harmlessly hold his drunken friend down so he doesn't start a barfight. You even defend against it with a Defense Value. But if the clinch already happens within mortal combat, and you're at the phase of comparing successes, who's attacking? The initiator? But if he's only trying to hold the opponent immobile while the opponent is trying to kill him, is he the attacker? After all, if he loses control of the clinch, the opponent won't hesitate to choke him to death. Same thing with the resister. Would it be better to treat it not as an attack, just like a race is just a contest, not an attack? Or should we say that both sides are defending? Or is it both sides are attacking? Or is it both an attack and a defense? This question is important because it defines what kind of charms are usable. If you are already clinched, can you use HGD or SSE to break the clinch? If contesting a clinch is an attack or just a regular contest, then you can't. What about counter-attack charms? Leaping Dodge Method? What if I use a reflexive charm that reduces their defense pool? (Abyssal might have such charms.) But if I do that, wouldn't I be reducing their attack pool too. Vice versa, if I use a reflexive charm that increases my defense or reduces their offense, wouldn't I be increasing my offense or reducing their defense? - TonyC

:Just woke up, so providing exact rulings, assuming any even support my argument, is incredibly beyond me. I play football with with the rules anyway, I'm merely going to give my 2 cents. On the initial clinch attempt, there's a clear attacker and defender, and thus the attacker can use any Charms that operate on a defender, and vice-versa. This is about the only point where I would see SSE or HGD being useable. Assuming the clinch succeeds, the two are now somewhat hopelessly intertwined. Ever been in what would amount to a clinch? There's no finesse to it, just trying to be better at it than your opponent. I would argue that, in a clinch, you are both attacking by the fact you're rolling an opposed pool, rather than one person rolls against another's DV. What I really think we need is another keyword, "Clinch-OK", that specifies what Charms acan be used in a clinch, and what cnnot. For simplicity though, I would immediately state that only Martial Arts Charms apply, and then only those that can be clearly used in a clinch situation, such as Excellencies, anything that is intended for clinch use, and Charms with an instant entropic effect. - [[Trithne]]

To add my $0.02, I do not consider anything in 2e an "attack" if it is not contested by a DV or soak, and I don't consider anything other than what would normally use a DV or soak a "defense." - IanPrice
:Well, a clinch uses soak. That also tends to make some effects very powerful, as many charms won't work against them. I tend to consider most adverse affects "attacks", unless they are clearly social or mental.

Personally, I think clinching should be two actions and two weapons. 1 for initiating and 1 for maintaining the clinch. -FlowsLikeBits

Does it help matters at all to think of a clinch contest as an attack where parry and dodge are considered inapplicable defenses? -- [[Wordman]]

: Not really, as there are plenty of effects that work(HGD,SSE) that work even when they don't apply. This seems odd. My view is that a clinch contest is kinda it's own thing. The primary oddity is speed. -FlowsLikeBits

This may or may not be relevant, but I think it's worth noting that, once the clinch begins in the rules, the words "attacker" and "defender" disappear entirely, replaced by "aggressor" and "victim." The only mention of any version of "attacker" comes at the end of the section describing what happens during a clinch roll: "If a character held in a clinch turns the table on his opponent, then his action immediately switches to '''attacking''' and the former aggressor switches to inactive, resetting the appropriate speed of each from that tick." That suggests that initiating a period of time in which a character is in control of a clinch constitutes an attack, but otherwise, the contest is merely an action. - [[Hapushet]]
:I agree with this statement. I was trying to express something similar with my opinion above. - IanPrice

Just to add my two cents in, I've always felt that the controller of the clinch is considered the attacker and the one being grappled is the defender, for any circumstance in which it matters.

IanPrice: Yes

2006-08-08T05:31:40Z

Yes

@@ Line 3: / Line 3: @@
 '''Rules area:''' Clinching and resisting it.
-In [[TrialByFireRulings/IsContestingAClinchAnAttack/ShunVersusMonkey]], Monkey successfully clinched Shun. Next action comes in, and Monkey must maintain the clinch. To do this, both sides roll ([Strength or Dexterity] + Martial Arts). Monkey tries to use a custom MA charm that halves an opponent's attack pool, but the other player argued that the charm is not appropriate since the action is not an attack. This raises the question of what contesting a clinch actually is.
+In [[TrialByFire/ShunVersusMonkey]], Monkey successfully clinched Shun. Next action comes in, and Monkey must maintain the clinch. To do this, both sides roll ([Strength or Dexterity] + Martial Arts). Monkey tries to use a custom MA charm that halves an opponent's attack pool, but the other player argued that the charm is not appropriate since the action is not an attack. This raises the question of what contesting a clinch actually is.
 The following rules may help in resolving this:

@@ Line 3: / Line 3: @@
 '''Rules area:''' Clinching and resisting it.
-In TrialByFire/ShunVersusMonkey, Monkey successfully clinched Shun. Next action comes in, and Monkey must maintain the clinch. To do this, both sides roll ([Strength or Dexterity] + Martial Arts). Monkey tries to use a custom MA charm that halves an opponent's attack pool, but the other player argued that the charm is not appropriate since the action is not an attack. This raises the question of what contesting a clinch actually is.
+In [[TrialByFireRulings/IsContestingAClinchAnAttack/ShunVersusMonkey]], Monkey successfully clinched Shun. Next action comes in, and Monkey must maintain the clinch. To do this, both sides roll ([Strength or Dexterity] + Martial Arts). Monkey tries to use a custom MA charm that halves an opponent's attack pool, but the other player argued that the charm is not appropriate since the action is not an attack. This raises the question of what contesting a clinch actually is.
 The following rules may help in resolving this:
@@ Line 15: / Line 15: @@
 * Corebook, p. 179. An "attack" is an effect that damages or changes the Exalt's body, mind, spirit, or traits. A "defense" is an effect that prevents sunch an attack.
-What is contesting a clinch? Who's the attacker? Who's the defender? Is it even an attack? It is intuitive to treat the initial attempt as an attack, even if the initiator simply wants to, say, harmlessly hold his drunken friend down so he doesn't start a barfight. You even defend against it with a Defense Value. But if the clinch already happens within mortal combat, and you're at the phase of comparing successes, who's attacking? The initiator? But if he's only trying to hold the opponent immobile while the opponent is trying to kill him, is he the attacker? After all, if he loses control of the clinch, the opponent won't hesitate to choke him to death. Same thing with the resister. Would it be better to treat it not as an attack, just like a race is just a contest, not an attack? Or should we say that both sides are defending? Or is it both sides are attacking? Or is it both an attack and a defense? This question is important because it defines what kind of charms are usable. If you are already clinched, can you use HGD or SSE to break the clinch? If contesting a clinch is an attack or just a regular contest, then you can't. What about counter-attack charms? Leaping Dodge Method? What if I use a reflexive charm that reduces their defense pool? (Abyssal might have such charms.) But if I do that, wouldn't I be reducing their attack pool too. Vice versa, if I use a reflexive charm that increases my defense or reduces their offense, wouldn't I be increasing my offense or reducing their defense? - TonyC
+What is contesting a clinch? Who's the attacker? Who's the defender? Is it even an attack? It is intuitive to treat the initial attempt as an attack, even if the initiator simply wants to, say, harmlessly hold his drunken friend down so he doesn't start a barfight. You even defend against it with a Defense Value. But if the clinch already happens within mortal combat, and you're at the phase of comparing successes, who's attacking? The initiator? But if he's only trying to hold the opponent immobile while the opponent is trying to kill him, is he the attacker? After all, if he loses control of the clinch, the opponent won't hesitate to choke him to death. Same thing with the resister. Would it be better to treat it not as an attack, just like a race is just a contest, not an attack? Or should we say that both sides are defending? Or is it both sides are attacking? Or is it both an attack and a defense? This question is important because it defines what kind of charms are usable. If you are already clinched, can you use HGD or SSE to break the clinch? If contesting a clinch is an attack or just a regular contest, then you can't. What about counter-attack charms? Leaping Dodge Method? What if I use a reflexive charm that reduces their defense pool? (Abyssal might have such charms.) But if I do that, wouldn't I be reducing their attack pool too. Vice versa, if I use a reflexive charm that increases my defense or reduces their offense, wouldn't I be increasing my offense or reducing their defense? - [[TonyC]]
 :Just woke up, so providing exact rulings, assuming any even support my argument, is incredibly beyond me. I play football with with the rules anyway, I'm merely going to give my 2 cents. On the initial clinch attempt, there's a clear attacker and defender, and thus the attacker can use any Charms that operate on a defender, and vice-versa. This is about the only point where I would see SSE or HGD being useable. Assuming the clinch succeeds, the two are now somewhat hopelessly intertwined. Ever been in what would amount to a clinch? There's no finesse to it, just trying to be better at it than your opponent. I would argue that, in a clinch, you are both attacking by the fact you're rolling an opposed pool, rather than one person rolls against another's DV. What I really think we need is another keyword, "Clinch-OK", that specifies what Charms acan be used in a clinch, and what cnnot. For simplicity though, I would immediately state that only Martial Arts Charms apply, and then only those that can be clearly used in a clinch situation, such as Excellencies, anything that is intended for clinch use, and Charms with an instant entropic effect. - [[Trithne]]
-To add my $0.02, I do not consider anything in 2e an "attack" if it is not contested by a DV or soak, and I don't consider anything other than what would normally use a DV or soak a "defense." - IanPrice
+To add my $0.02, I do not consider anything in 2e an "attack" if it is not contested by a DV or soak, and I don't consider anything other than what would normally use a DV or soak a "defense." - [[IanPrice]]
 :Well, a clinch uses soak. That also tends to make some effects very powerful, as many charms won't work against them. I tend to consider most adverse affects "attacks", unless they are clearly social or mental.
-Personally, I think clinching should be two actions and two weapons. 1 for initiating and 1 for maintaining the clinch. -FlowsLikeBits
+Personally, I think clinching should be two actions and two weapons. 1 for initiating and 1 for maintaining the clinch. -[[FlowsLikeBits]]
 Does it help matters at all to think of a clinch contest as an attack where parry and dodge are considered inapplicable defenses? -- [[Wordman]]
-: Not really, as there are plenty of effects that work(HGD,SSE) that work even when they don't apply. This seems odd.  My view is that a clinch contest is kinda it's own thing.  The primary oddity is speed.  -FlowsLikeBits
+: Not really, as there are plenty of effects that work(HGD,SSE) that work even when they don't apply. This seems odd.  My view is that a clinch contest is kinda it's own thing.  The primary oddity is speed.  -[[FlowsLikeBits]]
 This may or may not be relevant, but I think it's worth noting that, once the clinch begins in the rules, the words "attacker" and "defender" disappear entirely, replaced by "aggressor" and "victim."  The only mention of any version of "attacker" comes at the end of the section describing what happens during a clinch roll: "If a character held in a clinch turns the table on his opponent, then his action immediately switches to '''attacking''' and the former aggressor switches to inactive, resetting the appropriate speed of each from that tick."  That suggests that initiating a period of time in which a character is in control of a clinch constitutes an attack, but otherwise, the contest is merely an action. - [[Hapushet]]
-:I agree with this statement. I was trying to express something similar with my opinion above. - IanPrice
+:I agree with this statement. I was trying to express something similar with my opinion above. - [[IanPrice]]