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 HOWEVER, their is some connention raised elsewhere that Imbue Amalgam might not have an indefinite duration. It says "until the end of the story" in the spell description, which a Storyteller could read as a discrete duration. - [[Epsilon]]
-One of the [[Ikselam/Yieng | first characters I ever wrote up]] was actually the result of something very similar to [[Raindoll]]'s first scenario. Her patron essentially waited for random chance to produce an individual who looked just like his Solar wife from the First Age (he also probably checked for specific astrological circumstances surrounding the birth, too), then spirited her off and subjected her to a training regimen specifically designed to instill the same values and outlook as were held by the First Age woman. This ended up attracting the predecessor's Exaltation, making the character a de facto reincarnation of her.<br>
+One of the [[Ikselam/Yieng|first characters I ever wrote up]] was actually the result of something very similar to [[Raindoll]]'s first scenario. Her patron essentially waited for random chance to produce an individual who looked just like his Solar wife from the First Age (he also probably checked for specific astrological circumstances surrounding the birth, too), then spirited her off and subjected her to a training regimen specifically designed to instill the same values and outlook as were held by the First Age woman. This ended up attracting the predecessor's Exaltation, making the character a de facto reincarnation of her.<br>
 This idea sort of came from C.J. Cherryh's excellent novel <i>Cyteen</i>, which revolved around a reincarnation-through-cloning scheme.<br>
 _[[Ikselam]]
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 PS: it's Shataina :)
-:Actually, there's another issue with memory that is even more important: What does it mean to remember?  Thsi is another one that has philosophers and spychologists stumped.  Is memory a fully holographic event, and some neurological studies indicate, or is there something more to the process?  Also, how is memory actually stored?  If one follows the holographic model, then the most likely answer is that memory is somewhat distributed throughout the brain (note the if...), though the degree of distribution, like the degree of resolution of the holograph, the number and type of encodable short-cuts (necessary in most, if not all, reasonable accounts of memory), and a number of other factors is open to very much debate.  Additionally, the violability and re-usablility of the storage locations, whatever they turn out to be, is an issue.  (You remember lots of things, but do you remember all of the details, and if not, is it because they were encoded <nowiki>improperly/insufficiently</nowiki> or were overwritten or just weren't deeply enough engrained when originally encoded?)  Next, and this is perhaps even the biggest issue, how does one actually retrieve these memeories, either consciously or unconsciously?  Is there a sort of index structure to the brain that contains some sort of relative or absolute "address" for the holograph?  Some studies seem to support this, but others seem to indicate that stimuli that induce memory recall sweep the entire brain, sort of like the "search" function of a computer system, but several orders of magnitude faster, and not very visible to the researchers.  Once you've dealt with that, <i>then</i> you're somwhat ready to deal with issues like whether or not a transferred memory is really remembered "properly".  Of course, having dealt with all of that, one has to model the system in terms of essence flows and swirls and eddies and lattices etc.  ^^  It's best, I think, just to leave things at "You can copy and paste memories", and avoid the messy details of how memory actually works.  Unless one is a thorough geek, and is determined to work out every last physical law in Creation.  (I admit that I have tendencies that way, cf. the [[Discussions/Language | Language in Gaming]] discussion that I started.  Oh, I be geek-grrl.  ^^; )  -[[Suzume]] (directing her comments at this whole memory-related fiber in the larger thread)
+:Actually, there's another issue with memory that is even more important: What does it mean to remember?  Thsi is another one that has philosophers and spychologists stumped.  Is memory a fully holographic event, and some neurological studies indicate, or is there something more to the process?  Also, how is memory actually stored?  If one follows the holographic model, then the most likely answer is that memory is somewhat distributed throughout the brain (note the if...), though the degree of distribution, like the degree of resolution of the holograph, the number and type of encodable short-cuts (necessary in most, if not all, reasonable accounts of memory), and a number of other factors is open to very much debate.  Additionally, the violability and re-usablility of the storage locations, whatever they turn out to be, is an issue.  (You remember lots of things, but do you remember all of the details, and if not, is it because they were encoded <nowiki>improperly/insufficiently</nowiki> or were overwritten or just weren't deeply enough engrained when originally encoded?)  Next, and this is perhaps even the biggest issue, how does one actually retrieve these memeories, either consciously or unconsciously?  Is there a sort of index structure to the brain that contains some sort of relative or absolute "address" for the holograph?  Some studies seem to support this, but others seem to indicate that stimuli that induce memory recall sweep the entire brain, sort of like the "search" function of a computer system, but several orders of magnitude faster, and not very visible to the researchers.  Once you've dealt with that, <i>then</i> you're somwhat ready to deal with issues like whether or not a transferred memory is really remembered "properly".  Of course, having dealt with all of that, one has to model the system in terms of essence flows and swirls and eddies and lattices etc.  ^^  It's best, I think, just to leave things at "You can copy and paste memories", and avoid the messy details of how memory actually works.  Unless one is a thorough geek, and is determined to work out every last physical law in Creation.  (I admit that I have tendencies that way, cf. the [[Discussions/Language|Language in Gaming]] discussion that I started.  Oh, I be geek-grrl.  ^^; )  -[[Suzume]] (directing her comments at this whole memory-related fiber in the larger thread)
 AAGH!  Corrected.  I [http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/glossary/term.SHAITAN.html can't imagine] what I could have been thinking of. ;)  Anyway, if someone uses a technique like this, it's 'cause he or someone else really, really wants the dead person alive again.  I mean, if he just wanted a servant, he could have used Imbue Amalgam.  And if he just wanted the person's memories, he could have just read them off the spirit flunky.  So, I think that the resurrector would treat Rei as if she were Yui, and pretty much ignore the possibility that she isn't.  (The resurrector could also just be trying to fool someone else.  Come to think of it, the target doesn't need to be dead for this to work...)  -- [[Raindoll]]
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 ::KSR = him.  (cf. [http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/ksr0/biography.html this bio on the fan page].) Btw, I've enjoyed his <i>Mars</i> novels, though I've yet to have an opportunity to read <i>The Martians</i>, the anthology he added  on to the series. -[[Suzume]]
-[[Falcon]] - Look at me, contributing. As far as I know, in Exalted, everyone has <I>two[[Raindoll/ResurrectionIsPossible/I]]> souls - higher and lower. The lower, animal soul is kind of generic, but the higher soul is what becomes a ghost when someone who dies becomes a ghost. If you built Yui using your method (nice NGE reference, although it gives away some plot :) ), but she also happened to be hanging around the Underworld as an intelligent ghost, you would have two Yuis. Which would be real? Ghost Yui or clone Yui? Neither? Both?
+[[Falcon]] - Look at me, contributing. As far as I know, in Exalted, everyone has <I>two</I> souls - higher and lower. The lower, animal soul is kind of generic, but the higher soul is what becomes a ghost when someone who dies becomes a ghost. If you built Yui using your method (nice NGE reference, although it gives away some plot :) ), but she also happened to be hanging around the Underworld as an intelligent ghost, you would have two Yuis. Which would be real? Ghost Yui or clone Yui? Neither? Both?
 :Isn't the lower soul what becomes a hungry ghost, while the higher soul is what becomes a conscious ghost?<br>
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 It's worth pointing out that taking [[Bo3C]] too seriously at this late date is troublesome at best.  The "no resurrection" language was, in my opinion, mainly to prevent the cavalier attitude to character death in certain <i>Other</i> games.  Having glanced at some of the ideas presented here for ways to accomplish a resurrection effect, I'd have to say that if one of my players came to me with one of those schemes worked out in as much detail as some of them, I'd be willing to let them try, and maybe even succede.<br>In a world where there exists the ability to bind whatever array of "souls" a being might have, preserve or recreate its material vessel, or create an entirely new one, and preserve the memories and abilities of the original individual, and to put all of these events toward one such being, resurrection is, in fact, possible by definition.  Fulfilling all of these requirements would qualify as true resurrection.  Partially meeting some, or even dropping some, <i>might</i> possibly be true resurrection, or it might not.  Good luck defining something that philosophers have been having a bit of trouble with for millenia.  Stipulating that resurrection is not possible in this given environment is to postulate some new force that actively prevents those events from concurring.  In other words, to preserve the few lines of text, which would have been written rather hurriedly in an attempt to get the (much less important) sourcebook out on time is equivalent to creating your own house ruling on the setting, and is just as valid, but <i>only</i> as valid by the same token.  Thus is the legacy of truly atrocious formulation and conceptual errors and of typos and misprints in this game which shouldn't be any sort of revelation to any of us that have read the core book, even.<br>Essentially, I sincerely believe that that "no resurrections allowed" policy was entirely intended to prevent the appearance of that most unwanted of roles, the party band-aid (aka, the "<i>Cleric</i>"; <looks aroud furtively for the [[WotC]] Copyright-Enforcement Ninja Squad (tm) to appear>), in what is supposed to be an <i>Heroic</i> character environment.  Bones was present for a number of reasons, none of which was to be seen doing what a doctor normally does.  He was far more entertaining as the foil for Spock, and more dramatic as the one who confirmed everyone's dread that the redshirt-of-the-week was, in fact, dead, Jim.  Giving routine vitamin shots and flu vaccinations, or even performing routine open-heart surgery just wasn't interesting enough.  For that matter, Dr. Kovac (spelling not really known) of ER fame is an interesting character, not because he practices emergency medicine for everyone to see, but rather becuase of the way that he does it, and the way that his personal life interferes with or enhances his ability to do it.  In the end, it's only about the drama.<br>Conclusion: if it kicks something's ass, then we'll look at it; otherwise, if the character dies, well, I guess the player should probably get busy making another one.
 ::::::::::-[[Suzume]] (who is just asking for it, posting somethinglike this...  ^^; )
-Btw, [[BrilliantRain]]: the simplest spell of this sort in D&D is "Raise Dead" a fifth level spell that only works if the individual to be raised died within one day of the spell being cast, and which imposes a level loss.  "Resurrection" is a seventh level spell, and also imposes a level loss, but with a much longer (minimum 130 years) absolute time limit.  "True Resurrection" is a ninth level spell, with no level loss, and a very long lead time. ^^ -[[Suzume | S]]
+Btw, [[BrilliantRain]]: the simplest spell of this sort in D&D is "Raise Dead" a fifth level spell that only works if the individual to be raised died within one day of the spell being cast, and which imposes a level loss.  "Resurrection" is a seventh level spell, and also imposes a level loss, but with a much longer (minimum 130 years) absolute time limit.  "True Resurrection" is a ninth level spell, with no level loss, and a very long lead time. ^^ -[[Suzume|S]]
 It also kind of seems incongruous that there should be something that is hard and fast flat out impossible. To me, Solars killing Primordials in a one-on-one is more implausible than raising the dead. All of those passages in the Abyssal book describing the Abyssal Castes suggests that part of the Unconquered Sun's thing is that he has that whole death/ressurection thing going for him. I think it would make it appropriate if Adamant Circle Sorcery (the Solars' much vaunted uber treat) could perform a ressurection. Though, I like the idea of a Zenith pulling a massive ritual to have the Unconquered Sun do all of the real work (kind of like how Achilles appeals to Zeus for Patroclus to defeat the Trojans at the Greek ships and return alive). White Wolf is always on about how they're giving us all of this freedom and suchlike, that it really gets my craw when they flat out say no. It really gets my craw when they do something for no better reason than to seem better than D&D. Does anyone know if Savant and Sorcerer amends the statement that caused this discussion by simply placing ressurection outside of the level of power Adamant Circle Sorcery is capable of? ~[[Andrew02]]

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 ::KSR = him.  (cf. [http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/ksr0/biography.html this bio on the fan page].) Btw, I've enjoyed his <i>Mars</i> novels, though I've yet to have an opportunity to read <i>The Martians</i>, the anthology he added  on to the series. -[[Suzume]]
-[[Falcon]] - Look at me, contributing. As far as I know, in Exalted, everyone has <I>two</I> souls - higher and lower. The lower, animal soul is kind of generic, but the higher soul is what becomes a ghost when someone who dies becomes a ghost. If you built Yui using your method (nice NGE reference, although it gives away some plot :) ), but she also happened to be hanging around the Underworld as an intelligent ghost, you would have two Yuis. Which would be real? Ghost Yui or clone Yui? Neither? Both?
+[[Falcon]] - Look at me, contributing. As far as I know, in Exalted, everyone has <I>two[[Raindoll/ResurrectionIsPossible/I]]> souls - higher and lower. The lower, animal soul is kind of generic, but the higher soul is what becomes a ghost when someone who dies becomes a ghost. If you built Yui using your method (nice NGE reference, although it gives away some plot :) ), but she also happened to be hanging around the Underworld as an intelligent ghost, you would have two Yuis. Which would be real? Ghost Yui or clone Yui? Neither? Both?
 :Isn't the lower soul what becomes a hungry ghost, while the higher soul is what becomes a conscious ghost?<br>

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