MartialArts/WingedSerpentStyleOldComments - Revision history

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IanPrice: *

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Back to [[/WingedSerpentStyle|Winged Serpent]].
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Hmmm... I don't think I like the idea of a Style not having its own pre-form Charms. I see Martial Arts styles as self-contained things. Furious Wingbeats seems too good... actually, the large number of permanent charms in this style worries me. I haven't read it too closely, but it seems like a single charm (the Form) becomes all you need to activate to be a very effective combatant. -[[szilard]]

Also, Tail-Devouring Serpent doesn't quite work. Consider that there may be multiple attacks defended against. -[[szilard]]

*The idea to bring this style out of existing charms was based on the fact that Solar Hero style (known as Solar Brawl charms in 1E) has extra offshoot charms that are not strictly part of the style.
*The idea of only having to activate the form to become effective is exactly what I was going for. I could be convinced to increase the mote expenditure for the extra abilities the permanent charms add to it though.
*Why does that make it not work? It is supposed to allow a lot of Essence recovery, with the downside that it commits 20 motes.
-IanPrice

Solar Hero Style is a martial art that has some extra (non-form) Solar charms built off of it due to it being a 'native' Solar style, something which Snake explicitly isn't (and building an entire other style off of it with a second form charm rubs me the wrong way. As far as TDS... Huh? How does it commit any motes, let alone 20, when it has no cost? Also what happens if you successfully defend multiple attacks - can you get more essence back than you put in? What happens if you successfully defend one attack but not another, do you get anything back? As written, it is unclear on these points. - [[szilard]]

:Brainfart. I thought you were commenting on the pinnacle charm. For TDS, the effect of the form it refers to can only apply to one attack. I have edited the form for more clarity on this. As for rubbing you the wrong way... then don't use it in your games. Makes perfect sense to me, since 90% of the hard styles of martial arts out there (and I've trained in 4) use the same first three or four katas. Besides, my ST already approved it up to the form, so for the game I'm in I'm not worried about that aspect of the theme. - IanPrice

Also, I have added a cost for Furious Wingbeats, and an extra cost for Unfolding Fangs. The reason these effects, and Tail-Devouring Serpent, are permanent charms enhancing the form? I don't want to have to create a huge combo to use everything at once. - IanPrice

Reading all of this, looks like our fight should be interesting. I suspect that the trial will suggest that some of this style is a bit too powerful to be a celestial style. In particular, I think the following will prove unbalancing:

* Tail-Devouring Serpent will turn out to provide way too much for its requirements. If the cost of Unfolding Fangs and the form defense buff was 2m and TDS lowered it to 1, that might be better balanced, although given the pinnacle charm, perhaps not.
* Celestial Martial Arts should pretty much never contain perfect effects, particularly those that also completely strip away both kinds of defense. I don't think any published charm does both.
* The ability to use all the permanent effects at once will be a bit too uber.
* The ability to use all the permanent effects at once ''in addition'' to a combo will almost absurdly powerful.
* The essence regen from the pinnacle, particularly the defensive part of it, will be vastly to high, and the willpower exchange will be game breaking.

Should be challenging to keep my Schmendrik alive, especially without combos. - [[Wordman]]

I disagree on the perfects (Righteous Devil style - Azure Abacus Meditation; existing celestial level perfect attack which nullifies both defenses), but you may be right on the essence regen. At least from TDS. I don't think the pinnacle is far out of line for a 5/5 charm, but I may have to remove the damage -> motes part. - IanPrice
:Mods made... I don't want to overdo it. - IanPrice

:Hmm. I thought I made this comment earlier, but maybe I never saved it. Azure Abacus is parriable with non-perfect charms and is also Simple, which makes a big difference. Additionally, the willpower cost of Deadly Serpent, which usually acts as a decent limitation on such charms, is rendered essentially meaningless by the pinnacle charm. As for the pinnacle, the health to motes effect wasn't the broken part. As originally written, the charm was a ''persistant'' combination of Hungry Ghost Form, a defensive version of Essence-Gathering Temper with no cap on how many motes it can regain per action and a version of Willpower-Enhancing Spirit that is cheaper, does not require a roll and doesn't require being injured. This ''might'' be OK for a sidereal form, but seems over the top for celestial style, particularly the willpower part. Since the entire style is built to avoid needing combos (a somewhat dubious practice, IMO), this might seem like it isn't that big of deal, but using this style with combos and the willpower regen would be game-breaking. Some of that would go away if the permanents had riders in them that prohibited combo use during actions where the permanent effect was used. -- [[Wordman]]

:VBoS. Joy in Adversity Stance. However, a cap of once per action, and making Deadly Serpent Simple, would be fine by me. I have done so. I have also made DSP nullify only one form of defense, whichever is highest. Also note that in the last change I did, I already changed it so that there's only 3 things that can be done without a combo in the form (flurry DV penalties, DV boost, flurry dice penalties). I also revised Furious Wingbeats to be 1m/die. I am now revising the DV penalty adjuster and the DV bonus in the same way. - IanPrice

:You're right about JiAS, which has on average the same regen rate and is not capped. Really, I think the broken part is the willpower thing. If the original charm was reinstated, with the damage -> motes effect restored (perhaps even with a higher regen rate), no mote regen limit, but the willpower effect was removed, you'd be in business. You could probably also reduce the wp cost of the charm by 1 if you did this. Well, and perhaps add a 1wp cost to Sinuous Winged Grace. Since a master of this style doesn't rely on combos, he'd still be able to outlast his opponent in high level combat even without the willpower regen. - [[Wordman]]

The power balance on this one is very strange and hard to judge; I'll have to see it in action. I do have one comment, though - why require all three Excellencies? Forcing someone to take both First and Second is basically requiring them to throw a Charm away for no gain. - FrivYeti
:Prerequisite charms represent a learning curve, in my mind. This style teaches perfection, so it requires learning all there is to know about excellence. The Lore tree does something similar. I also don't really share that opinion; it's a small gain, but it's a kind of flexibility. There are times when I'd prefer to have the dice, and there are times when I'd prefer to have a reliable number of extra successes. - IanPrice

:Lore only requires two Excellencies, which allows you to pick up an adder and a re-roller. It's your tree, I just thought I'd mention. Mathematically, there's no situation in which it's worth it to switch back and forth between First and Second Excellencies. - FrivYeti

:This is mostly true, but not totally. The chance of getting x/2 successes on x dice averages to closer to 0.48 than 0.5, so Second Excellency has a 2% advantage, which is about 4 times better than the house advantage on the pass line in craps; however, that's only on average. There may be cases where the average result doesn't cut it. For example, suppose you have 10 dice and someone tells you that you can either roll them, or buy one success for two dice, but you need six successes. Using the buy successes method, you can never succeed, but your chance of rolling six or more successes with those dice is something like 39%, and you could score as many as 20 (with a vanishingly small probability). -- [[Wordman]]

I have made what I think will be the final necessary changes. Added WP cost to Fallen Feather Guard, because most effects which cause inapplicability cost WP. TDS has been given back its function affecting the form, since the form now pays for each DV point at 2m/DV for both of its abilities. The pinnacle has been revised as per [[Wordman]]'s advice, because he's right. And besides, in actual use, there's plenty of ways to turn Essence into Willpower, I don't have to put it in my martial art. - IanPrice

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-Back to [[MartialArts/WingedSerpentStyleOldComments/WingedSerpentStyle|Winged Serpent]].
+Back to [[MartialArts/WingedSerpentStyle|Winged Serpent]].
 ----
 Hmmm... I don't think I like the idea of a Style not having its own pre-form Charms. I see Martial Arts styles as self-contained things. Furious Wingbeats seems too good... actually, the large number of permanent charms in this style worries me. I haven't read it too closely, but it seems like a single charm (the Form) becomes all you need to activate to be a very effective combatant. -[[szilard]]

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-Back to [[/WingedSerpentStyle|Winged Serpent]].
+Back to [[MartialArts/WingedSerpentStyleOldComments/WingedSerpentStyle|Winged Serpent]].
 ----
 Hmmm... I don't think I like the idea of a Style not having its own pre-form Charms. I see Martial Arts styles as self-contained things. Furious Wingbeats seems too good... actually, the large number of permanent charms in this style worries me. I haven't read it too closely, but it seems like a single charm (the Form) becomes all you need to activate to be a very effective combatant. -[[szilard]]
@@ Line 42: / Line 42: @@
 :This is mostly true, but not totally. The chance of getting x/2 successes on x dice averages to closer to 0.48 than 0.5, so Second Excellency has a 2% advantage, which is about 4 times better than the house advantage on the pass line in craps; however, that's only on average. There may be cases where the average result doesn't cut it. For example, suppose you have 10 dice and someone tells you that you can either roll them, or buy one success for two dice, but you need six successes. Using the buy successes method, you can never succeed, but your chance of rolling six or more successes with those dice is something like 39%, and you could score as many as 20 (with a vanishingly small probability). -- [[Wordman]]
-I have made what I think will be the final necessary changes. Added WP cost to Fallen Feather Guard, because most effects which cause inapplicability cost WP. TDS has been given back its function affecting the form, since the form now pays for each DV point at 2m[[MartialArts/WingedSerpentStyleOldComments/DV]] for both of its abilities. The pinnacle has been revised as per [[Wordman]]'s advice, because he's right. And besides, in actual use, there's plenty of ways to turn Essence into Willpower, I don't have to put it in my martial art. - [[IanPrice]]
+I have made what I think will be the final necessary changes. Added WP cost to Fallen Feather Guard, because most effects which cause inapplicability cost WP. TDS has been given back its function affecting the form, since the form now pays for each DV point at 2m/DV for both of its abilities. The pinnacle has been revised as per [[Wordman]]'s advice, because he's right. And besides, in actual use, there's plenty of ways to turn Essence into Willpower, I don't have to put it in my martial art. - [[IanPrice]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:07, 5 April 2010
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	:This is mostly true, but not totally. The chance of getting x/2 successes on x dice averages to closer to 0.48 than 0.5, so Second Excellency has a 2% advantage, which is about 4 times better than the house advantage on the pass line in craps; however, that's only on average. There may be cases where the average result doesn't cut it. For example, suppose you have 10 dice and someone tells you that you can either roll them, or buy one success for two dice, but you need six successes. Using the buy successes method, you can never succeed, but your chance of rolling six or more successes with those dice is something like 39%, and you could score as many as 20 (with a vanishingly small probability). -- [[Wordman]]		:This is mostly true, but not totally. The chance of getting x/2 successes on x dice averages to closer to 0.48 than 0.5, so Second Excellency has a 2% advantage, which is about 4 times better than the house advantage on the pass line in craps; however, that's only on average. There may be cases where the average result doesn't cut it. For example, suppose you have 10 dice and someone tells you that you can either roll them, or buy one success for two dice, but you need six successes. Using the buy successes method, you can never succeed, but your chance of rolling six or more successes with those dice is something like 39%, and you could score as many as 20 (with a vanishingly small probability). -- [[Wordman]]

−	I have made what I think will be the final necessary changes. Added WP cost to Fallen Feather Guard, because most effects which cause inapplicability cost WP. TDS has been given back its function affecting the form, since the form now pays for each DV point at 2m[[/DV]] for both of its abilities. The pinnacle has been revised as per [[Wordman]]'s advice, because he's right. And besides, in actual use, there's plenty of ways to turn Essence into Willpower, I don't have to put it in my martial art. - [[IanPrice]]	+	I have made what I think will be the final necessary changes. Added WP cost to Fallen Feather Guard, because most effects which cause inapplicability cost WP. TDS has been given back its function affecting the form, since the form now pays for each DV point at 2m[[MartialArts/WingedSerpentStyleOldComments/DV]] for both of its abilities. The pinnacle has been revised as per [[Wordman]]'s advice, because he's right. And besides, in actual use, there's plenty of ways to turn Essence into Willpower, I don't have to put it in my martial art. - [[IanPrice]]

@@ Line 8: / Line 8: @@
 *The idea of only having to activate the form to become effective is exactly what I was going for. I could be convinced to increase the mote expenditure for the extra abilities the permanent charms add to it though.
 *Why does that make it not work? It is supposed to allow a lot of Essence recovery, with the downside that it commits 20 motes.
--IanPrice
+-[[IanPrice]]
 Solar Hero Style is a martial art that has some extra (non-form) Solar charms built off of it due to it being a 'native' Solar style, something which Snake explicitly isn't (and building an entire other style off of it with a second form charm rubs me the wrong way. As far as TDS... Huh? How does it commit any motes, let alone 20, when it has no cost? Also what happens if you successfully defend multiple attacks - can you get more essence back than you put in? What happens if you successfully defend one attack but not another, do you get anything back? As written, it is unclear on these points. - [[szilard]]
-:Brainfart. I thought you were commenting on the pinnacle charm. For TDS, the effect of the form it refers to can only apply to one attack. I have edited the form for more clarity on this. As for rubbing you the wrong way... then don't use it in your games. Makes perfect sense to me, since 90% of the hard styles of martial arts out there (and I've trained in 4) use the same first three or four katas. Besides, my ST already approved it up to the form, so for the game I'm in I'm not worried about that aspect of the theme. - IanPrice
+:Brainfart. I thought you were commenting on the pinnacle charm. For TDS, the effect of the form it refers to can only apply to one attack. I have edited the form for more clarity on this. As for rubbing you the wrong way... then don't use it in your games. Makes perfect sense to me, since 90% of the hard styles of martial arts out there (and I've trained in 4) use the same first three or four katas. Besides, my ST already approved it up to the form, so for the game I'm in I'm not worried about that aspect of the theme. - [[IanPrice]]
-Also, I have added a cost for Furious Wingbeats, and an extra cost for Unfolding Fangs. The reason these effects, and Tail-Devouring Serpent, are permanent charms enhancing the form? I don't want to have to create a huge combo to use everything at once. - IanPrice
+Also, I have added a cost for Furious Wingbeats, and an extra cost for Unfolding Fangs. The reason these effects, and Tail-Devouring Serpent, are permanent charms enhancing the form? I don't want to have to create a huge combo to use everything at once. - [[IanPrice]]
 Reading all of this, looks like our fight should be interesting. I suspect that the trial will suggest that some of this style is a bit too powerful to be a celestial style. In particular, I think the following will prove unbalancing:
@@ Line 26: / Line 26: @@
 Should be challenging to keep my Schmendrik alive, especially without combos. - [[Wordman]]
-I disagree on the perfects (Righteous Devil style - Azure Abacus Meditation; existing celestial level perfect attack which nullifies both defenses), but you may be right on the essence regen. At least from TDS. I don't think the pinnacle is far out of line for a 5/5 charm, but I may have to remove the damage -> motes part. - IanPrice
+I disagree on the perfects (Righteous Devil style - Azure Abacus Meditation; existing celestial level perfect attack which nullifies both defenses), but you may be right on the essence regen. At least from TDS. I don't think the pinnacle is far out of line for a 5/5 charm, but I may have to remove the damage -> motes part. - [[IanPrice]]
-:Mods made... I don't want to overdo it. - IanPrice
+:Mods made... I don't want to overdo it. - [[IanPrice]]
 :Hmm. I thought I made this comment earlier, but maybe I never saved it. Azure Abacus is parriable with non-perfect charms and is also Simple, which makes a big difference. Additionally, the willpower cost of Deadly Serpent, which usually acts as a decent limitation on such charms, is rendered essentially meaningless by the pinnacle charm. As for the pinnacle, the health to motes effect wasn't the broken part. As originally written, the charm was a ''persistant'' combination of Hungry Ghost Form, a defensive version of Essence-Gathering Temper with no cap on how many motes it can regain per action and a version of Willpower-Enhancing Spirit that is cheaper, does not require a roll and doesn't require being injured. This ''might'' be OK for a sidereal form, but seems over the top for celestial style, particularly the willpower part. Since the entire style is built to avoid needing combos (a somewhat dubious practice, IMO), this might seem like it isn't that big of deal, but using this style with combos and the willpower regen would be game-breaking. Some of that would go away if the permanents had riders in them that prohibited combo use during actions where the permanent effect was used. -- [[Wordman]]
-:VBoS. Joy in Adversity Stance. However, a cap of once per action, and making Deadly Serpent Simple, would be fine by me. I have done so. I have also made DSP nullify only one form of defense, whichever is highest. Also note that in the last change I did, I already changed it so that there's only 3 things that can be done without a combo in the form (flurry DV penalties, DV boost, flurry dice penalties). I also revised Furious Wingbeats to be 1m/die. I am now revising the DV penalty adjuster and the DV bonus in the same way. - IanPrice
+:[[VBoS]]. Joy in Adversity Stance. However, a cap of once per action, and making Deadly Serpent Simple, would be fine by me. I have done so. I have also made DSP nullify only one form of defense, whichever is highest. Also note that in the last change I did, I already changed it so that there's only 3 things that can be done without a combo in the form (flurry DV penalties, DV boost, flurry dice penalties). I also revised Furious Wingbeats to be 1m/die. I am now revising the DV penalty adjuster and the DV bonus in the same way. - [[IanPrice]]
-:You're right about JiAS, which has on average the same regen rate and is not capped. Really, I think the broken part is the willpower thing. If the original charm was reinstated, with the damage -> motes effect restored (perhaps even with a higher regen rate), no mote regen limit, but the willpower effect was removed, you'd be in business. You could probably also reduce the wp cost of the charm by 1 if you did this. Well, and perhaps add a 1wp cost to Sinuous Winged Grace. Since a master of this style doesn't rely on combos, he'd still be able to outlast his opponent in high level combat even without the willpower regen. - [[Wordman]]
+:You're right about [[JiAS]], which has on average the same regen rate and is not capped. Really, I think the broken part is the willpower thing. If the original charm was reinstated, with the damage -> motes effect restored (perhaps even with a higher regen rate), no mote regen limit, but the willpower effect was removed, you'd be in business. You could probably also reduce the wp cost of the charm by 1 if you did this. Well, and perhaps add a 1wp cost to Sinuous Winged Grace. Since a master of this style doesn't rely on combos, he'd still be able to outlast his opponent in high level combat even without the willpower regen. - [[Wordman]]
-The power balance on this one is very strange and hard to judge; I'll have to see it in action. I do have one comment, though - why require all three Excellencies? Forcing someone to take both First and Second is basically requiring them to throw a Charm away for no gain. - FrivYeti
+The power balance on this one is very strange and hard to judge; I'll have to see it in action. I do have one comment, though - why require all three Excellencies? Forcing someone to take both First and Second is basically requiring them to throw a Charm away for no gain. - [[FrivYeti]]
-:Prerequisite charms represent a learning curve, in my mind. This style teaches perfection, so it requires learning all there is to know about excellence. The Lore tree does something similar. I also don't really share that opinion; it's a small gain, but it's a kind of flexibility. There are times when I'd prefer to have the dice, and there are times when I'd prefer to have a reliable number of extra successes. - IanPrice
+:Prerequisite charms represent a learning curve, in my mind. This style teaches perfection, so it requires learning all there is to know about excellence. The Lore tree does something similar. I also don't really share that opinion; it's a small gain, but it's a kind of flexibility. There are times when I'd prefer to have the dice, and there are times when I'd prefer to have a reliable number of extra successes. - [[IanPrice]]
-:Lore only requires two Excellencies, which allows you to pick up an adder and a re-roller. It's your tree, I just thought I'd mention. Mathematically, there's no situation in which it's worth it to switch back and forth between First and Second Excellencies. - FrivYeti
+:Lore only requires two Excellencies, which allows you to pick up an adder and a re-roller. It's your tree, I just thought I'd mention. Mathematically, there's no situation in which it's worth it to switch back and forth between First and Second Excellencies. - [[FrivYeti]]
 :This is mostly true, but not totally. The chance of getting x/2 successes on x dice averages to closer to 0.48 than 0.5, so Second Excellency has a 2% advantage, which is about 4 times better than the house advantage on the pass line in craps; however, that's only on average. There may be cases where the average result doesn't cut it. For example, suppose you have 10 dice and someone tells you that you can either roll them, or buy one success for two dice, but you need six successes. Using the buy successes method, you can never succeed, but your chance of rolling six or more successes with those dice is something like 39%, and you could score as many as 20 (with a vanishingly small probability). -- [[Wordman]]
-I have made what I think will be the final necessary changes. Added WP cost to Fallen Feather Guard, because most effects which cause inapplicability cost WP. TDS has been given back its function affecting the form, since the form now pays for each DV point at 2m/DV for both of its abilities. The pinnacle has been revised as per [[Wordman]]'s advice, because he's right. And besides, in actual use, there's plenty of ways to turn Essence into Willpower, I don't have to put it in my martial art. - IanPrice
+I have made what I think will be the final necessary changes. Added WP cost to Fallen Feather Guard, because most effects which cause inapplicability cost WP. TDS has been given back its function affecting the form, since the form now pays for each DV point at 2m[[/DV]] for both of its abilities. The pinnacle has been revised as per [[Wordman]]'s advice, because he's right. And besides, in actual use, there's plenty of ways to turn Essence into Willpower, I don't have to put it in my martial art. - [[IanPrice]]