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DeadManSeven at 06:07, 30 May 2006

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DeadManSeven at 05:59, 11 October 2005

2005-10-11T05:59:08Z

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David.: *

2005-06-14T13:26:31Z

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 = Protection: The White Aegis of the Guardian =
-A [[SiderealMartialArts|Sidereal Martial Art]] by DeadManSeven.
+A [[SiderealMartialArts|Sidereal Martial Art]] by [[DeadManSeven]].
 === Introduction ===
 This was based off me wondering what a more defensive high-Essence style would look like. No prizes for guessing the origins of the sutra. :)
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 I've gotta say, while the 'feel' is good, I'm a little worried (ok, a lot worried) that some of the Essence 4 charms are overpowered. More particularly, the ones that scare me the most are the "All damage done to allies is added to my damage" one, which doesn't specify how many allies it counts - for example, what if I'm the leader of an army? In  the first round of combat, I could easily have a +100 to my damage. Not good for a charm that's supposed to, you know, not kill Autocthon in one hit. Another that scares me is the charm(s) that are taught by the Celestial Gods - For 15 motes (no Willpower in a scene-long this powerful?) you can get things like movement+attack (fine, simple, and I like it), or doubled actions (pretty cool, and tolerable at the Essence level it's at and high mote cost) but more frighteningly, one that doubles your base damage, and another that causes your base to be Aggravated. That's a lot of oomph. Mind, things like Essence-Fang Strike (I think that's what it's called) are the pinnacle of the Solar tree, and take WP, and only last for one strike, while this is a scene-long booster.
-Similarly the one that lets you donate things to your allies is cool in flavor, but scary in practice. At the beginning of the round, the Siddie 'donates' a whole heck of a lot to an ally - like his entire pool, and most of his HL. The ally, empowered, launches the "All-Encompassing Uber Combo", fully charged. At the end of the round, the total usage of motes/WP/HL in the group is only 12m+1HL, even if the Uber Combo consumed over 60m+5WP+2HL.
+Similarly the one that lets you donate things to your allies is cool in flavor, but scary in practice. At the beginning of the round, the Siddie 'donates' a whole heck of a lot to an ally - like his entire pool, and most of his HL. The ally, empowered, launches the "All-Encompassing Uber Combo", fully charged. At the end of the round, the total usage of motes[[/WP/HL]] in the group is only 12m+1HL, even if the Uber Combo consumed over 60m+5WP+2HL.
 What about the charm that lets you automatically win initiative for a scene? Even against a Moonsilver Alchemical with a base initiative of 32? What about one with a bonus of 40? Where does it stop? Or the nice and happy "Perfect Defense"?! In theory, only Solars have access to perfects - things like Impeding the Flow aren't truly perfect, and even if they do exist, are quite rare. Putting perfect defenses in a Celestial Martial Art is giving those same perfects (in theory) to Lunars, Alchemicals, and Sidereals. Sure, it doesn't apply to you, only your ally - but having advertised that you have this charm, allies are easy to come by. And if you're smart, you'll teach this to your ally as well, allowing cross-defending quite easily. And it isn't even a single type of defense (parry/dodge/soak) it's all three?
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 Feel free to disagree, as I'm new to the Wiki...
-by GregLink
+by [[GregLink]]
 :How did I miss this giant essay? I thought for sure nobody had read this. Anyway...
-:It's a Sidereal style, so that's a lot of power to throw around. Compared to the jaw-dropping things you can do with the canon Sidereal styles (PAoC, for example, gives you access to some really scary things early on in the tree - Games of Divinity Form, Manse and Demesne Form, and it's not too much of a stretch to get Four Magical Materials Form, either), I figured this was about equivalent. Sure, the first instinct is to say, 'Wow, shit, that is <I>way</I> broken,' but it's not that bad when you keep in mind the kind of attacks that come out at high Essence levels. 'If I touch you, roll save vs. death.' 'I lay waste to a strip of land ten miles in front of me with fifteen dice of Aggravated damage.' Sidereal kung-fu is <I>scary</I>. So something capable of defending it has to have equal amounts of scary.
+:It's a Sidereal style, so that's a lot of power to throw around. Compared to the jaw-dropping things you can do with the canon Sidereal styles ([[PAoC]], for example, gives you access to some really scary things early on in the tree - Games of Divinity Form, Manse and Demesne Form, and it's not too much of a stretch to get Four Magical Materials Form, either), I figured this was about equivalent. Sure, the first instinct is to say, 'Wow, shit, that is <I>way</I> broken,' but it's not that bad when you keep in mind the kind of attacks that come out at high Essence levels. 'If I touch you, roll save vs. death.' 'I lay waste to a strip of land ten miles in front of me with fifteen dice of Aggravated damage.' Sidereal kung-fu is <I>scary</I>. So something capable of defending it has to have equal amounts of scary.
 :With some of the specific issues you've brought up, there's still holes and ways around then. Succor of the Sisterhood isn't of Instant duration, so no combos for you that turn, and you can't use it if you've already used a Charm. Also, anything you lend doesn't belong to you until the turn is over, so you're in big trouble if you get struck with a Charm that involves your Willpower in some way - or worse, get hit when you've loaned out some health levels. Shield for the Shieldless doesn't defend against extra effects (knockback, stat loss, social Charms, having one's soul fall off, etc.), and using it too much will chew into a Sidereal's tiny health pool. Blessing of the Maiden of Jupiter's effects could easily be replicated by any other Celestial with a custom Charm (initiative-winning Charms like Thunderclap Rush Attack and the like require, what, Essence 2? So it's not unreasonable to think that a scene-long initiative-winner could appear at Essence 3 or 4... and probably wouldn't cost as much as 15 motes to power it, either). There's also the hole that, while this style is very good at defending other people, it's lousy at defending yourself. There is a lot of powerful Charms, yes - but, to me, a smart opponent who's come prepared will find ways through the gaps. And, really... if you're not prepared, and planning on going head-to-head with a Sidereal and his crack fighting unit, you're probably going to lose anyway.
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 :However, I'm not in total disagreement. Blessing of the Maiden of Endings is pretty out there, and Invoking the Protector's Rage could probably stand to be bumped up to requiring Essence 6. But then I think of the madness that is Prismatic Arrangement of Creation, where you can be totally fascinating and almost impossible to attack, <I>and</I> get all these crazy boosts to your stats, <I>and</I> have a level 5 hearthstone stuck in your forehead... And that's supposed to be a low-end style for younger Sidereals.
-:Thankyou very much for your comments, because I do quite like having something to discuss. :) - DeadManSeven
+:Thankyou very much for your comments, because I do quite like having something to discuss. :) - [[DeadManSeven]]
 By the way, all of the Celestials in print ('cept Lunars) have perfect defenses (...Alchemicals may not, I haven't read them thoroughly). Solars have Heavenly Guardian Defense, Abyssals have Incomparable Sentinel Stance (or whatever), and Sidereals have Serenity in Blood. So...throwing a perfect defense in a high-Essence Sidereal-level MA doesn't seem like that big a deal. - [[David.]]
-:Even Lunars have a sort-of perfect defence. Don't they have a perfect dodge/parry that needs to succeed on a (very easy) dice roll first to work? - DeadManSeven
+:Even Lunars have a sort-of perfect defence. Don't they have a perfect dodge/parry that needs to succeed on a (very easy) dice roll first to work? - [[DeadManSeven]]
 ::Yes, they have Flowing Body Evasion. I left it out (and the Sidereals' Duck Fate) since it's, arguably, not "perfect", since it does require a roll. I consider those to be perfect defenses, of course. - [[David.]]
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 ::<I>Also, this Charm can end up with weird situations where you're perfectly healthy except for your -0 and -4 health levels. There should be something in there about suffering the highest wound penalty, regardless of how many health levels are actually missing. Slightly ungainly, but that's weird Sidereal Martial Arts being weird for you. - [[DeadManSeven|DM7]]</I>
-::: Well, it's more the "you get back what you lent, even if it was used" that's the problem. Making it a simple charm won't really help. It's still abusive with CMoSF, and pretty nasty otherwise. I'd make it scene lenght, but drop the "get back what you lent when it ends" effect. - [[FlowsLikeBits | FLB]]
+::: Well, it's more the "you get back what you lent, even if it was used" that's the problem. Making it a simple charm won't really help. It's still abusive with [[CMoSF]], and pretty nasty otherwise. I'd make it scene lenght, but drop the "get back what you lent when it ends" effect. - [[FlowsLikeBits | FLB]]
 ::::<I>Making this a scene-length thing solves a lot of the problems, and then isn't so abusive. Health levels come back damaged, but damage reorganises itself to run in the right order for healing. That's less complex. - [[DeadManSeven|DM7]]</I>
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 ::::<I>A cap of +MA to base damage per turn, with +Ess all up should be alright. I don't use Martial Arts ratings enough in MA Charm mechanics, anyway. - [[DeadManSeven|DM7]]</I>
-*Lending the Soul's Strength: Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. The Gold should teach this to Solars. You'd be crazy not to.  I'd at least say that Multiple Lendings of the same effect from different people do not stack. Picture a circle with this and BotBM...yowza.  Maybe max number of effects equals Essence.
+*Lending the Soul's Strength: Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. The Gold should teach this to Solars. You'd be crazy not to.  I'd at least say that Multiple Lendings of the same effect from different people do not stack. Picture a circle with this and [[BotBM]]...yowza.  Maybe max number of effects equals Essence.
--FlowsLikeBits
+-[[FlowsLikeBits]]
 ::<I>That should maybe be reined in with getting rid of the thing about sharing any scene-length Charm, and keep it just within the field of Martial Arts. Still powerful, but not 'Gold Factions pwnz everything now' powerful. Dice caps would still apply anyway, since a Charm has to specifically say that it allows Solars (and MA-using Sidereals) to add more dice and Attritube + Ability, Lunars to add more than Attribute, etc..</I>
-:::Even keeping it within the field of martial arts is pretty bad. Say one of you know PaoC form and another knows CMoSF...This gets bad quickly. Heck, you could spread the pain for BotBM around, and everyone could max their die pools without crippling their essence. I'm temped to say you can only lend one effect and each only recieve one lent effect.(I don't think you'd need to limit it to MA in this case.) Anyway, I wouldn't feel to bad about missing this, since a bloody Terrestial MA(Crimson Pentacle Blade) also lets you do it.  - [[FlowsLikeBits | FLB]]
+:::Even keeping it within the field of martial arts is pretty bad. Say one of you know [[PaoC]] form and another knows [[CMoSF]]...This gets bad quickly. Heck, you could spread the pain for [[BotBM]] around, and everyone could max their die pools without crippling their essence. I'm temped to say you can only lend one effect and each only recieve one lent effect.(I don't think you'd need to limit it to MA in this case.) Anyway, I wouldn't feel to bad about missing this, since a bloody Terrestial MA(Crimson Pentacle Blade) also lets you do it.  - [[FlowsLikeBits | FLB]]
 ::::<I>Five Directions Formation Thinger, if read with a certain interpretation, is broken like crazy. It's still pretty insane even without that reading that says it allows a Sidereal and his Immaculate hit-squad to belt everything in sight with Essence-Shattering Typhoon. I'd say that, if you wanted to use that Charm as a comparison to Lending the Soul's Strength, a Formation will end up looking about equal, because although all the members <B>must</B> always be there, the cost can be shared around. To really abuse the power to Lending the Soul's Strength, you have to commit a lot of essence to scene-long Charms (not always viable, especially for Sidereals, with their small essence pools and need to keep low profiles), and you usually need a lot of time to prepare (most scene-long Martial Arts Charms are Simple, and many of them are Form Charms). I don't really see this as totally unbalancing when limited to just MA Charms, when it commits a minimum of 10 motes, plus the cost of whatever else you want to commit on top of that. - [[DeadManSeven|DM7]]</I>

MartialArts/WhiteAegisOfTheGuardianStyle - Revision history

Wordman: Script: fix links messed up in conversion

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DeadManSeven at 06:07, 30 May 2006

DeadManSeven at 05:59, 11 October 2005

David.: *