GregLink/CelestialTerrestrialMA - Revision history

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Telgar: reply

2005-08-05T02:35:27Z

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Alrighty, here's the issue/question.

Suppose you've got an Eclipse-Caste Martial Artist who has mastered all 5 of the Dragon Paths. Go him/her. In particular, said Eclipse just /loves/ Air-aspected, but knows that it's 'only' a terrestrial style. About 100 years later, the "Celestial Air Dragon Style" is developed. The question, then is this: How powerful would such a style be? Would it simply have different essence costs? More powerful charms? Things that are only "MA-turns" long last for the scene instead?

The general question I'm asking is this: Since Celestials are harder to learn than Terrestrials, they should be more powerful, right? Given that, what does "more powerful" mean? What kind of changes would one make to a Terrestrial Style to make it Celestial?

Discuss.
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Um. Dude? The Five Glorious Dragon Paths are Celestial Martial Arts. That's why they're hard for DB's to learn. Crimson Pentacle Blade Style, Jade Mountain Style and Five Dragon Style are the only canon Terrestrial Martial Arts. - [[Telgar]], in the first half of a paragraph that GregLink felt the need to interject in

:So - about that. Obviously a little bit of misinformation on my part about the Terrestriality of the Five Immaculate arts. Sorry. For the remainder of the discussion, let's assume I meant one of those three. - GregLink

And "more powerful" means more powerful. Like Solar Charms are stronger then Dragon-Blooded Charms. They do more, they provide more esoteric effects. They last longer, their costs are lower. You can't really "convert" a TMA into a CMA. You just have to build a CMA based on the TMA. Jade Mountain vs Earth Dragon, there's a semi-example.
- [[Telgar]]

Not a bad example, really. But are there any general guidelines? I mean, one can look at the Solar Melee Parries (GEB, DSD) and compare them to DB parries to get a rough idea of what the 'step' is in terms of cost and power. But due to the vagaries and plentitudes of MA's, and the admitted purposeful difference in utility of the MA charms (some are intentional speedbumps), it's a bit tough. I'm still in the market for ideas, personally. - GregLink

Well, let me ask you this - are you looking for a straight "powerup" of the Charms in the style, where "MA in turns" becomes "Scene" and "add up to your Essence in dice" becomes "add up to your Dexterity + Martial Arts" and so on, or would you be more interested in a "here's a Celestial Style, all shiny and pretty and elementally aspected, just like this other Terrestrial Style, which has similar imagery and fluff text and shares an elemental alignment, but which is otherwise not really the same"? The latter is closer to the relationship between Jade Mountain and Earth Dragon, but what you put up before suggested something more like the former... -- [[Hapushet]]

You won't find a straight TMA to CMA conversion formula. First, because such a thing would be a pain in the ass. Second, because it's impossible. Why is it impossible? Two reasons. Because TMAs and CMAs work on different thematic levels, CMAs being far more abstract and complicated. A TMA won't turn you into a living shadow or a giant flying dream carp. Nothing SHOULD turn you into giant flying dream carp...but that isn't the point. Secondly, some Charms just become flat UNBALANCED no matter what level they are when you institute flat reforms like increasing duration or max dice or lowering cost. You have to do everything case-by-case unless its a generic Charm and good MAs dont have generic Charms.<br>
Basically, you just have to write TMAs and CMAs and that's about the size of it. There's no magical stick to beat a TMA with and turn it into a CMA. - [[Telgar]]

Maybe this isn't going as well as I'd hoped. While I understand that there is no 'magic stick' to beat a TMA into a CMA, the issue is much more base than that - other than imagery (and imagery may be all there is!), is there any real 'systematic' difference between them? Can one say that there's generally only one Scene-long in a TMA, but more in a CMA? Can one say that dice-wise they're identical, but you're more likely to find "turn you into a shadow" effects in CMA? What is the fundamental difference (if any) other than one being CMA and one TMA? - GregLink

TMAs have effects with limited applicability. They have lower dice-adding ability. They produce smaller effects and spread their effects out over more Charms. Some Charms will be one use instead of scenelong. They're not as powerful. You can't really break down "not as powerful" more then saying "not as powerful" in other ways. TMAs lack the oomph that CMAs have. - [[Telgar]]

GregLink: Trying to not sound like an idiot

2005-08-05T02:22:38Z

Trying to not sound like an idiot

← Older revision	Revision as of 01:16, 6 April 2010
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 Discuss.
 ----
-Um. Dude? The Five Glorious Dragon Paths are Celestial Martial Arts. That's why they're hard for DB's to learn. Crimson Pentacle Blade Style, Jade Mountain Style and Five Dragon Style are the only canon Terrestrial Martial Arts.  - [[Telgar]], in the first half of a paragraph that GregLink felt the need to interject in
+Um. Dude? The Five Glorious Dragon Paths are Celestial Martial Arts. That's why they're hard for DB's to learn. Crimson Pentacle Blade Style, Jade Mountain Style and Five Dragon Style are the only canon Terrestrial Martial Arts.  - [[Telgar]], in the first half of a paragraph that [[GregLink]] felt the need to interject in
-:So - about that. Obviously a little bit of misinformation on my part about the Terrestriality of the Five Immaculate arts. Sorry. For the remainder of the discussion, let's assume I meant one of those three. - GregLink
+:So - about that. Obviously a little bit of misinformation on my part about the Terrestriality of the Five Immaculate arts. Sorry. For the remainder of the discussion, let's assume I meant one of those three. - [[GregLink]]
 And "more powerful" means more powerful. Like Solar Charms are stronger then Dragon-Blooded Charms. They do more, they provide more esoteric effects. They last longer, their costs are lower. You can't really "convert" a TMA into a CMA. You just have to build a CMA based on the TMA. Jade Mountain vs Earth Dragon, there's a semi-example.
    - [[Telgar]]
-Not a bad example, really. But are there any general guidelines? I mean, one can look at the Solar Melee Parries (GEB, DSD) and compare them to DB parries to get a rough idea of what the 'step' is in terms of cost and power. But due to the vagaries and plentitudes of MA's, and the admitted purposeful difference in utility of the MA charms (some are intentional speedbumps), it's a bit tough. I'm still in the market for ideas, personally. - GregLink
+Not a bad example, really. But are there any general guidelines? I mean, one can look at the Solar Melee Parries (GEB, DSD) and compare them to DB parries to get a rough idea of what the 'step' is in terms of cost and power. But due to the vagaries and plentitudes of MA's, and the admitted purposeful difference in utility of the MA charms (some are intentional speedbumps), it's a bit tough. I'm still in the market for ideas, personally. - [[GregLink]]
 Well, let me ask you this - are you looking for a straight "powerup" of the Charms in the style, where "MA in turns" becomes "Scene" and "add up to your Essence in dice" becomes "add up to your Dexterity + Martial Arts" and so on, or would you be more interested in a "here's a Celestial Style, all shiny and pretty and elementally aspected, just like this other Terrestrial Style, which has similar imagery and fluff text and shares an elemental alignment, but which is otherwise not really the same"?  The latter is closer to the relationship between Jade Mountain and Earth Dragon, but what you put up before suggested something more like the former... -- [[Hapushet]]
@@ Line 21: / Line 21: @@
 Basically, you just have to write TMAs and CMAs and that's about the size of it. There's no magical stick to beat a TMA with and turn it into a CMA. - [[Telgar]]
-Maybe this isn't going as well as I'd hoped. While I understand that there is no 'magic stick' to beat a TMA into a CMA, the issue is much more base than that - other than imagery (and imagery may be all there is!), is there any real 'systematic' difference between them? Can one say that there's generally only one Scene-long in a TMA, but more in a CMA? Can one say that dice-wise they're identical, but you're more likely to find "turn you into a shadow" effects in CMA?  What is the fundamental difference (if any) other than one being CMA and one TMA? - GregLink
+Maybe this isn't going as well as I'd hoped. While I understand that there is no 'magic stick' to beat a TMA into a CMA, the issue is much more base than that - other than imagery (and imagery may be all there is!), is there any real 'systematic' difference between them? Can one say that there's generally only one Scene-long in a TMA, but more in a CMA? Can one say that dice-wise they're identical, but you're more likely to find "turn you into a shadow" effects in CMA?  What is the fundamental difference (if any) other than one being CMA and one TMA? - [[GregLink]]