FixTheLunarCharmTrees/ToolHandTechnique - Revision history

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Wordman: *

2005-04-08T23:11:07Z

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== Official Version ==
Tool Hand Technique
Cost: 1 mote
Duration: One scene
Type: Simple
Min. Manipulation: 2
Min. Essence: 2
Prereqs: Shaping the Ideal Form
Turn hand into any tool for a scene, +2 to Craft rolls made with it.

== [[SMK]]'s Version ==
Fairly major overhaul here, I guess. 
First, extend the +2 to all non-combat rolls made using the tools (so now it includes, e.g., lockpicking). 
Second, allow one additional effect: can make unarmed attacks deal/parry lethal for the scene. 
Third, THT is now an alternative for Body Weaponry Technique and Steel Paw Style on all the Charms that used to come off of those two.

== [[Quendalon]]'s Version ==
As the original version, except that it provides a bonus to any non-combat Ability use reliant on the emulated tool, and it has an additional prerequisite of Body-Weapon Technique.

== [[Morpheus]]'s Verson ==
This charm now requires 4 Manipulation and 2 Essence, costs 4 motes, and has the prerequisite charms Shaping the Ideal Form and Body-Weapon Technique. It can create any tool, including any small weapon(dagger or smaller) with no moving parts. Weapons created thus are hard, and can parry and inflict lethal damage. They use Brawl or Melee, but actions taken with them are always counted as unarmed. Tools created this way are exactly what the character wants, but are not exceptional in any way, and the wielder receives no special bonus to use them. The character must know exactly what tool she wants(what it looks like, how it works, etc). Given a copy of a key, she can recreate the key, but working from memory is difficult. Remembering exactly what something looked like often requires a Per + Int roll.

== [[Wordman]]'s Version ==
The lunar shapes her hand into hardened tool of any kind. Such tools allow her to block a lethal attacks (even if unarmed) or make an unarmed attacks do lethal damage. The basic knowledge behind this charm allows it to be used in place of Steel Paw Style and Body-Weapon Technique as a prerequiste for charms that require them. The training for this charm emphasizes concentration and very subtle control of form, allowing the creation of fine details within the tool (e.g. saw teeth, specially shaped tips, better leverage, etc.). In addition, the lunar can choose to make tools that still allow her to feel what is being touched, providing +2 dice for any Craft rolls made using these tools and any Larceny attempts that benfit from fine tools (e.g. lockpicking, some types of forging, possibly some forms of disguise).

===== Vote Tally =====
== Official Version ==
# No one yet
== [[SMK]]'s Version ==
# [[SMK]]
== [[Quendalon]]'s Version ==
# [[Quendalon]]
== Morpheus's Version ==
# [[Morpheus]]
== Wordman's Version ==
#[[Wordman]]
===== Comments =====
This is one of those ridiculous deliniations that make no in-game sense. If you can make a hammer, or smithing tongs, or a saw, or an adze, etc., there is absolutely no plausible explanation why you can't use that stuff to deal and parry lethal damage barehanded. I mean, you can already use this with any Craft check, and cooking is a Craft (it uses knives, for those not in the know =P) - [[SMK]]

:Sounds reasonable, but there's one key problem. Finding the Spirit's Shape and Shaping the Ideal Form are prerequisites for Tool-Hand Technique, which adds an additional two requisite Charms to every Unarmed and Defensive Charm tree. Pretty rough for starting combat-oriented Lunars. - [[Quendalon]]

::Well, since you've pretty much damn well already taken FtSS, it only adds one; on top of that, as long as you take something from Unarmed Combat and something from the parry-based defensive tree, there's no effective increase in prereq numbers (because you're collapsing two Charms into this one). And if I had a player who really had a problem with it, I wouldn't think more than about 1.5 times about just removing the prereqs for THT and having done with it. That's just me, though. - [[SMK]]

::Fair enough. But what about the Manipulation 1 barbarian types? They don't have the prereqs for THT. ;) - [[Quendalon]]

:::Heheh. Well, if you have 1 Manipulation, you rather fail at being a Lunar, especially being a combat-focused Lunar (since DBT requires 2 Manipulation). However, I don't see any reason why, if a player came to me with that problem, I couldn't just be like, "what the fuck does using people have to do with understanding how a shovel works?" and give him the Charm with 1 Manipulation. =P - [[SMK]]

I've taken SMK's views on Tool-Hand Technique and turned them around, by giving it Body-Weapon Technique as a prerequisite. Voila, opposite methods providing the same effect! :) - [[Quendalon]]

:LOL! What did Lunars do to deserve that? ;) Really, though, this doesn't address the main concern I was trying to address here - that Body-Weapon Technique, Steel Paw Style, and Tool Hand Technique have such ultimately compatible effects that it makes no in-game sense for them to be separate Charms. I don't even see them as being far enough apart to be each other's speedbumps. It's like... hmm, what's it like... I'll get back to you with some sort of simile =P. - [[SMK]]

::In my opinion, Tool-Hand Technique requires far greater sophistication than Body Weapon Technique. Let’s take your example of Craft (Cooking). Let’s say you use Body Weapon Technique to emulate a knife. All that matters is that it’s hard and sharp, right? But when you’re making a cooking knife… is it a steak knife? A bread knife? A cleaver? What is its length, its width, its thickness? Is the blade curved? How flexible is it? How sharp is the edge? Is it serrated, and if so, what is the pattern of serration? If you're a skilled chef, these things matter. More notably, with your example of lockpicking… you need to match the exact pattern of the tumblers, and nothing else will do. Body Weapon Technique? Hard and sharp, yeah, and let’s see you pick the lock with that, thanks. – [[Quendalon]]

:::That's just it, though. THT is a lot more sophisticated than either BWT or SPS, so why on earth can't it duplicate their effects? There's no plausible reason. Once we've reached that conclusion, why on earth can't it function in their stead as a prerequisite, since it accomplishes the same thing and more? Again, no reason (that I can see). Perhaps the solution is simply to make it an alternate prereq, instead of eliminating BWT and SPS completely? - [[SMK]]

Wordman: *

2005-04-08T22:58:28Z

Morpheus: Tool-Hand Technique

2004-08-27T22:23:22Z

Tool-Hand Technique

@@ Line 22: / Line 22: @@
 == [[Wordman]]'s Version ==
-The lunar shapes her hand into hardened tool of any kind. Such tools allowing her to block a single lethal attack (even if unarmed) or make an unarmed attack do lethal damage. The basic knowledge behind this charm allows it to be used in place of Steel Paw Style and Body-Weapon Technique as a prerequiste for charms that require them. The training for this charm emphasizes very subtle control of form, allowing the creation of fine details within the tool (e.g. saw teeth, specially shaped tips, better leverage, etc.), providing +2 dice for Craft rolls and any Larceny attempts that benfit from fine tools (e.g. lockpicking).
+The lunar shapes her hand into hardened tool of any kind. Such tools allow her to block a lethal attacks (even if unarmed) or make an unarmed attacks do lethal damage. The basic knowledge behind this charm allows it to be used in place of Steel Paw Style and Body-Weapon Technique as a prerequiste for charms that require them. The training for this charm emphasizes concentration and very subtle control of form, allowing the creation of fine details within the tool (e.g. saw teeth, specially shaped tips, better leverage, etc.). In addition, the lunar can choose to make tools that still allow her to feel what is being touched, providing +2 dice for any Craft rolls made using these tools and any Larceny attempts that benfit from fine tools (e.g. lockpicking, some types of forging, possibly some forms of disguise).
 ===== Vote Tally =====
@@ Line 40: / Line 40: @@
 :Sounds reasonable, but there's one key problem.  Finding the Spirit's Shape and Shaping the Ideal Form are prerequisites for Tool-Hand Technique, which adds an additional two requisite Charms to <i>every</i> Unarmed and Defensive Charm tree.  Pretty rough for starting combat-oriented Lunars. - [[Quendalon]]
-::Well, since you've pretty much damn well already taken FtSS, it only adds one; on top of that, as long as you take something from Unarmed Combat <i>and</i> something from the parry-based defensive tree, there's <i>no</i> effective increase in prereq numbers (because you're collapsing two Charms into this one). And if I had a player who really had a problem with it, I wouldn't think more than about 1.5 times about just removing the prereqs for THT and having done with it. That's just me, though. - [[SMK]]
+::Well, since you've pretty much damn well already taken [[FtSS]], it only adds one; on top of that, as long as you take something from Unarmed Combat <i>and</i> something from the parry-based defensive tree, there's <i>no</i> effective increase in prereq numbers (because you're collapsing two Charms into this one). And if I had a player who really had a problem with it, I wouldn't think more than about 1.5 times about just removing the prereqs for THT and having done with it. That's just me, though. - [[SMK]]
 ::Fair enough.  But what about the Manipulation 1 barbarian types?  They don't have the prereqs for THT.  ;) - [[Quendalon]]

@@ Line 40: / Line 40: @@
 :Sounds reasonable, but there's one key problem.  Finding the Spirit's Shape and Shaping the Ideal Form are prerequisites for Tool-Hand Technique, which adds an additional two requisite Charms to <i>every</i> Unarmed and Defensive Charm tree.  Pretty rough for starting combat-oriented Lunars. - [[Quendalon]]
-::Well, since you've pretty much damn well already taken FtSS, it only adds one; on top of that, as long as you take something from Unarmed Combat <i>and</i> something from the parry-based defensive tree, there's <i>no</i> effective increase in prereq numbers (because you're collapsing two Charms into this one). And if I had a player who really had a problem with it, I wouldn't think more than about 1.5 times about just removing the prereqs for THT and having done with it. That's just me, though. - [[SMK]]
+::Well, since you've pretty much damn well already taken [[FtSS]], it only adds one; on top of that, as long as you take something from Unarmed Combat <i>and</i> something from the parry-based defensive tree, there's <i>no</i> effective increase in prereq numbers (because you're collapsing two Charms into this one). And if I had a player who really had a problem with it, I wouldn't think more than about 1.5 times about just removing the prereqs for THT and having done with it. That's just me, though. - [[SMK]]
 ::Fair enough.  But what about the Manipulation 1 barbarian types?  They don't have the prereqs for THT.  ;) - [[Quendalon]]

@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 == [[Morpheus]]'s Verson ==
 This charm now requires <b>4 Manipulation and 2 Essence</b>, costs <b>4 motes</b>, and has the prerequisite charms <b>Shaping the Ideal Form and Body-Weapon Technique</b>. It can create any tool, <b>including any small weapon(dagger or smaller)</b> with no moving parts. Weapons created thus are hard, and can parry and inflict lethal damage. They use Brawl or Melee, but actions taken with them are always counted as unarmed. Tools created this way are exactly what the character wants, but are not exceptional in any way, and the wielder receives no special bonus to use them. The character must know exactly what tool she wants(what it looks like, how it works, etc). Given a copy of a key, she can recreate the key, but working from memory is difficult. Remembering exactly what something looked like often requires a Per + Int roll.
 ===== Vote Tally =====
@@ Line 33: / Line 30: @@
 == Morpheus's Version ==
 # [[Morpheus]]
 ===== Comments =====
 This is one of those ridiculous deliniations that make no in-game sense. If you can make a hammer, or smithing tongs, or a saw, or an adze, etc., there is absolutely no plausible explanation why you can't use that stuff to deal and parry lethal damage barehanded. I mean, you can already use this with <i>any</i> Craft check, and cooking is a Craft (it uses knives, for those not in the know =P) - [[SMK]]
@@ Line 40: / Line 35: @@
 :Sounds reasonable, but there's one key problem.  Finding the Spirit's Shape and Shaping the Ideal Form are prerequisites for Tool-Hand Technique, which adds an additional two requisite Charms to <i>every</i> Unarmed and Defensive Charm tree.  Pretty rough for starting combat-oriented Lunars. - [[Quendalon]]
-::Well, since you've pretty much damn well already taken [[FtSS]], it only adds one; on top of that, as long as you take something from Unarmed Combat <i>and</i> something from the parry-based defensive tree, there's <i>no</i> effective increase in prereq numbers (because you're collapsing two Charms into this one). And if I had a player who really had a problem with it, I wouldn't think more than about 1.5 times about just removing the prereqs for THT and having done with it. That's just me, though. - [[SMK]]
+::Well, since you've pretty much damn well already taken FtSS, it only adds one; on top of that, as long as you take something from Unarmed Combat <i>and</i> something from the parry-based defensive tree, there's <i>no</i> effective increase in prereq numbers (because you're collapsing two Charms into this one). And if I had a player who really had a problem with it, I wouldn't think more than about 1.5 times about just removing the prereqs for THT and having done with it. That's just me, though. - [[SMK]]
 ::Fair enough.  But what about the Manipulation 1 barbarian types?  They don't have the prereqs for THT.  ;) - [[Quendalon]]

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