Discussions/ShatteringtheLunars - Revision history

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BerserkSeraph: *

2005-03-04T21:41:20Z

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#REDIRECT BerserkSeraph/AbilityLunars

Szilard: I am so slow

2005-03-04T07:37:07Z

I am so slow

AppleDog: Replying

2005-03-04T01:34:40Z

Replying

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−	#REDIRECT [[~~BerserkSeraphDiscussions/ShatteringtheLunars~~/AbilityLunars]]	+	#REDIRECT [[BerserkSeraph/AbilityLunars]]

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−	~~= Shattering the Moon =~~	+	#REDIRECT [[BerserkSeraphDiscussions/ShatteringtheLunars/AbilityLunars]]
−
−	So visions of Lunarplums have been dancing in my head for a while, and I feel like it's time to just come forward and say what's been rattling around in my head - it may be the wrong direction to take them, but it damn well feels more intuitive than what we have now.
−
−	In the sense of reconsideration...do the Lunars really gain anything from being Attribute-based? Aside from 'GIMONGOUS DBT DICE POOL KATA', I mean - and given that it TAKES DBT to make many of their Attribute-limit Charms as effective as similar Charms used by other Exalts...well, I'm in the camp that says 'There should be more than 2 effective ways to build a combat-capable Exalt'...
−
−	So, in that mind - would switching the Lunars to Ability-based be out of line? We'd reopen their castes to the base and just imply that Wyld perversion that they have to tattoo to prevent is the only drawback of the No Moons fiddling with their Shards. It would also mean a reconsideration of some of their Charms to fit it into a system for Charm standards among the Celestials - that is...
−
−	* Solars: 'Base' Power and applicability (Enhancement)
−	* Abyssals: 'Base' Power and (slightly less) applicability (Reduction)
−	* Sidereals: Higher Power but less Applicability (The 'steamroller' effect - they can either do nothing or do something huge)
−	* Lunars: Less Power but higher applicability (The 'swiss army knife' effect - their single charms cover a breadth of situations but with less oomph - so instead of a 'Triple-range' Charm and an 'No-environmental penalty' charm, they have a 'double-range and ignore most environmental penalties' Charm.)
−
−	In the vein of DariusSolluman's revamped Lunars - a big inspiration and an excellent piece of work - I'd suggest that these less-shattered Lunars retain more Societies (Perhaps similar to the ones Charlequin posed, but I haven't read those in detail) and political factions, perhaps forming extended 'families' of Lunars whose tribes/followers interact - creating a sort of 'pantheon' for those tribes. The Lunars would probably be fewer in number - they'd be less isolationist than the Wyld barbarians seen in their Splat, and thusly would have run into far more trouble.
−
−	I'd be reducing their Charm costs across the board but doing SOMETHING with DBT to make it fairer - we'd also be rolling many Charms together, so their trees would become less dense and, again, if not Ability-based at least have some coherence (I.e. a 'combat' tree might draw on numerous Full Moon favored Abilties, but not necessarily 'all melee' or 'all brawl' - the Trees would form the tapestry of some 'role' the Lunar would fulfill - so a 'Deceiver' and a 'Evasiveness' tree would draw on (Socialize and Perform) and (Dodge and Athletics), respectively) - I'd rule that, just as the Sids are the downright worst at making new charms and the Solars are the best, the Lunars are very capable adapters, creating new charms with considerable ease - not quite as much as the Solars, however. Lunar trees will likely look more like 'undergrowth' to the Sidereals' 'flowers' to the Solars' 'oak trees' - they'll have a whole slew of effects but, because of the vast 'utility' of their Low-Essence charms, they haven't done much to extend into larger tricks.
−
−	My first thought with DBT is to split it into two Charms which each affect different parts of the Tell - the character would thusly have a 'basal' DBT form, like in DariusSolluman's revision, and by taking Charm A they can increase their attributes in DBT but their Tell becomes larger (But not more noticable! A Lunar with a lot of Charm A and no Charm B has a GIGANTIC Tell that's, oddly, very hard to notice), and if they take Charm B they get another Gift in DBT but their Tell becomes more attention-drawing (So a Lunar with lots of Charm B and no Charm A has a tiny Tell that people can't help but notice).
−
−	~~Their less-perverted society would retain its original castes -~~
−
−	* <b>Full Moon</b> - Brawl, Melee, Medicine, Presence, Ride - The consummate battle-leader of a tough steppes clan, as deadly with his fists as with a sword and capable of rallying - or mending - his broken comrades.
−
−	* <b>Waxing Moon</b> - Bureaucracy, Lingustics, Resistance, Socialize, Thrown - Capable diplomats, moving seamlessly into the social structures of others, with a potent resistance to interrogation and the assassin's art to defend their Zenith allies at a moment's notice.
−
−	* <b>Half Moon</b> - Archery, Awareness, Endurance, Investigation, Survival - Toughened field-commanders, moving alongside an armed force and aiding them from afar with planned, tactical strikes - keen eyes unfurling the plots of enemy generals with ease.
−
−	* <b>Waning Moon</b> - Athletics, Dodge, Performance, Larceny, Stealth - Actors and thieves, slipping into places where no other could enter, playing a million roles and evading a billion obstacles to achieve at odd angles what a Night would achieve with brutishness.
−
−	* <b>No Moon</b> - Craft, Lore, Martial Arts, Occult, Sail - The wardens of the edges of society, the dead moon is a still pool - capable of making, understanding, considering, and, if necessary, tearing it down.
−
−	I'm thinking of swapping MA and Thrown between No Moon and Waxing Moon - simply to ensure that No Moons don't get both of the over-attributes. I don't know if it's completely necessary, though... thoughts?
−
−	Here are some of the ideas for Brawl charms - not necessarily in the order of prerequisites, but with a rough suggestion of how deep in the tree they'll be. Lunar trees probably will be denser than they are deep - that is, they'll rarely get more than 5-6 charms deep, instead 'branching' into clouds.
−
−	* /ShatteredCharacterCreation
−	* /TransformationCharms
−
−	~~== Comments ==~~
−
−	Thoughts on this? Would switching to this system rob Lunars of some...'flavor', for lack of a better word? I don't think Sids or DBs are particularly hindered for sharing a structure with the Solars - I just don't foresee it happening (Hell, I think being reliant on Attributes actively <i>detracts</i> from the Lunars - it seems very inelegant). As an aside: What would form the new cap for Lunar boosters? ~ BerserkSeraph
−
−	I rather like the changes, although that's partially because I didn't much like the flavor the Lunars had to begin with. As far as their dice-adder caps go, I'd leave them at the Attributes. They still get hefty attributes courtesy of DBT if nothing else, and it contrasts them with Ability+Specialty DBs or Essence Sidereals. ~Oberndorf
−
−	:I suppose that's fair - although it does continue the factor of really, deeply needing DBT to maximize effectiveness. DBs get a trade-off for their cap in that they have great mote efficiency and it's easier to get Ability 5 and Specialty 3 than it is to get Attribute 8. Sidereals get payoff in that they don't really have to roll very often with their Charms.
−
−	:Well yeah, but Lunars have always had that problem. It's not like it'd be a new issue, just a painful one. Besides, since Lunars get to add successes, rather than dice, the smaller dice caps are a little less onerous. ~Oberndorf
−
−
−	Suggestion: I'd switch around some of the caste abilities, namely: Athletics should probably go to Full Moons (given their anima ability and all). No Moons should lose Martial Arts (they are already the Sorcerers - it seems wrong for them to get both of the weird abilities) and should get something defensive insofar as they'll often be spellcasters (Dodge or Resistance). Waning Moons should get an offensive ability that is either based on opportunistic tool-use (probably Thrown) or artistic self-reliance (Martial Arts). Half Moons... well, I'd give them Ride for mobility, and I think having both Awareness and Investigation is somewhat over-concentrated. Investigation could go to Waning Moons. This would give us:
−
−	* Full Moon - Athletics, Brawl, Melee, Medicine, Presence
−
−	* Waxing Moon - Bureaucracy, Lingustics, Resistance, Socialize, Thrown
−
−	* Half Moon - Archery, Awareness, Endurance, Ride, Survival
−
−	* Waning Moon - Investigation, Martial Arts, Performance, Larceny, Stealth
−
−	* No Moon - Craft, Dodge, Lore, Occult, Sail
−
−	~~Of course, I really haven't given a great deal of thought to the Caste archetypes, so I may be way off here...~~
−
−	Other Alternatives: reduce the number of Favored Abilities per Caste, but give each Lunar a favored Attribute based upon that Lunar's Totem. The Attribute would be bought at favored costs, as would transformation Charms that are affiliated with that Attribute totem-thing, regardless of whether they were Charms of a favored ability. -[[~~szilard]]~~
−
−	~~:Here's the method behind some of this madness: The majority of stat-boosting~~/shapechanger charms will fall under Athletics, creating the 'exercise and claws' trees - this will be where Wanings get their offense, so they run short on it. Likewise, we don't want to load the Full Moons too much for melee bear, so two of the six Lunar 'offense' Abilities will be their purview - more than anyone else but not the weighty force of a Dawn, who in my estimation is hindered by the huge number of combat abilities in his list and the lack of much else.
−
−	:Awareness and Investigation cover two different facets of being insightful, both of which are vital to the role of the Half-Moon in unfurling battlefield conditions AND enemy plots - they are the consummate watchmen of the Lunars. I don't feel the need to give the No Moons a defensive skill just because they may need it - Dawns sure as hell need Resistance and Endurance but nobody lines up to pass it to 'em.
−
−	:The only issue I have with splitting MA and Occult from the No Moons is the mental image is so damn cool. I may let 'cool' trump 'good sense' in this case - especially because my mental images of the iconic caste members have had time to stagnate. I'll take some time to mull it over, however.
−
−	I'm not that up on Lunars unfortunaly(still new, takes while to absorb everything.) But do we know there were originally 5 castes? It might make sense to have 6, and favor Attributes then Abilties(As it seems likely was done with the Alchemicals.) That way the division works at least.
−	~~The other wacky thought would be to allow Lunars to have <i>attribute specialties<~~/~~i>. Then they could have a cap of attribute + specialty. (like DB. but better).~~
−	~~It gets a little weird, unless you disallow ability specialties, or just invoke the (Max bonus from specialties is +3 rule)~~
−	~~Just some weird thoughts -- FlowsLikeBits~~
−
−	:We do indeed know the names of the five original Lunar Castes, a parallel of the five Solar, Alchemical, Abyssal, Sidereal, and Dragon-Blooded Castes, aspects, and so on - I consider it a 'grave mistake' that the Lunars are the odd ones out in this respect. Similarly, I am deliberately moving away from the Attribute model because I think it's dumb- it's an unnecessary deviation from Abilities, which form a standard for everyone else (but Alchemicals - but until we've got the book I can't really comment on how that worked out). I find the Charm trees of the other Exalts to be better thought out, more attractive in function, having more effect on making the character being an individual with unique skills and tricks - rather than 'Bob Lunar' and 'Joe Lunar', who both have to use the same set of (crappy) ranged combat Charms, despite one using thrown and the other arrows... the 'divide by function' was a good idea but sloppily laid out, and it penalizes characters by having their core tricks DEMAND taking out-of-caste charms at great expense of xp and time - just to be good at what your Caste is good at! ~ BerserkSeraph
−
−	::Note that the ability-standard for Charms also doesn't apply to spirits... and the Fair Folk Charm trees are kinda wonky, as one would expect. My only real concerns about the ability-based Charm trees for Lunars are (1) that DBT and 'basic' shapeshifting Charms either don't fit into a single ability-based tree or - if they do - make that tree far too important and (2) that certain abilities (Athletics, Awareness, Brawl, Survival) seem more central to the Lunar shtick than others. I had a weird brainstorm last night about a Totem-based Charm tree system for Lunars rather than an ability-based one - everyone would start out with access to the generic 'Luna' tree (that would cover basic shapeshiftyness and Sorcery access) and their own Totem, and they could buy access to the Totem trees of other animals in their Heart's Blood library. Each totem tree would have a variety of effects based on the Totem. For instance, the Lion tree might have a mixture of combat and leadership charms, while the Raven tree would focus upon trickery and occultyness. -[[szilard]]
−
−	:::That sounds interesting, but there's a lot of totems! How would you divide stuff up? Maybe have some uber-totem trees, like Great Cat, Sea Monster, Rodent, etc... Come to that, what would be some good totems for this concept? -- JesseLowe
−
−	~~::::I believe AppleDog is doing just such a design - I haven't looked his redux over in length but what I've seen, I like - I may even stea^H^H^H borrow some of his Charm names. ~ BerserkSeraph~~
−
−	:::::Yeah, that's pretty well what I'm aiming for here, going for something a little more exciting than what Lunars have now. Mind you, there's no way I can cover every possible creature that a player could want, so I'm just going for a wide spread of shallow, esoteric and flavorful charm trees. If anyone's interested, I've got it up at AppleDog/LunarsRedux.
−
−	~~:::::...and here I thought I was being all original and brilliant-like. Now I must check out yet another Lunar-redesign-project... - [[szilard]]~~
−
−	~~:::::Oh, and hey, borrow away. ~ AppleDog~~
−
−
−	:That's going to be handled with, surprise, no DBT! As is, Lunars under this system will instead have elaborate Shapechanger Combos to enter their battle forms, which both decreases the Furrosity of the Exalts AND divorces them from single attributes, because they'll need to tap into numerous trees to get access to the full range of tricks DBT offered- with Waning Moons having access to the lion's share, but nobody being in any way kept from taking the tricks they need. And the listed Abilities are no more central to the Lunar shtick than, say, Presence and Melee are central to the Solars or Bureaucracy and MA to the Sidereals - they're common abilities but they're hardly the only ones worth taking.
−
−	:As an aside - Would it be a better idea for me to run out sketches of all the Transformation rules, first? I think it might - it helps answer the balance of what they do now, instead of having to compare it to things that might not exist in the revision. ~ BerserkSeraph
−
−	Eeep! My Bad. I suppose you could still use the <i>attribute specialties</i> idea to give a slightly higher dice cap, if that was useful for where this is going. Still looks cool though. --FlowsLikeBits
−
−	~~For my project I used Crescent and Gibbous instead of Waning and Waxing. It seems odd otherwise. -[[Xeriar~~]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:02, 3 April 2010
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−	#REDIRECT BerserkSeraph/AbilityLunars	+	#REDIRECT [[BerserkSeraph/AbilityLunars]]

@@ Line 84: / Line 84: @@
 :::::Yeah, that's pretty well what I'm aiming for here, going for something a little more exciting than what Lunars have now. Mind you, there's no way I can cover every possible creature that a player could want, so I'm just going for a wide spread of shallow, esoteric and flavorful charm trees. If anyone's interested, I've got it up at AppleDog/LunarsRedux.
 :::::Oh, and hey, borrow away. ~ AppleDog
 :That's going to be handled with, surprise, no DBT! As is, Lunars under this system will instead have elaborate Shapechanger Combos to enter their battle forms, which both decreases the Furrosity of the Exalts AND divorces them from single attributes, because they'll need to tap into numerous trees to get access to the full range of tricks DBT offered- with Waning Moons having access to the lion's share, but nobody being in any way kept from taking the tricks they need. And the listed Abilities are no more central to the Lunar shtick than, say, Presence and Melee are central to the Solars or Bureaucracy and MA to the Sidereals - they're common abilities but they're hardly the only ones worth taking.

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:34, 4 March 2005
(2 intermediate revisions by 2 users not shown)
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−	~~#REDIRECT~~ [[BerserkSeraph/~~AbilityLunars~~]]	+	= Shattering the Moon =
		+
		+	So visions of Lunarplums have been dancing in my head for a while, and I feel like it's time to just come forward and say what's been rattling around in my head - it may be the wrong direction to take them, but it damn well feels more intuitive than what we have now.
		+
		+	In the sense of reconsideration...do the Lunars really gain anything from being Attribute-based? Aside from 'GIMONGOUS DBT DICE POOL KATA', I mean - and given that it TAKES DBT to make many of their Attribute-limit Charms as effective as similar Charms used by other Exalts...well, I'm in the camp that says 'There should be more than 2 effective ways to build a combat-capable Exalt'...
		+
		+	So, in that mind - would switching the Lunars to Ability-based be out of line? We'd reopen their castes to the base and just imply that Wyld perversion that they have to tattoo to prevent is the only drawback of the No Moons fiddling with their Shards. It would also mean a reconsideration of some of their Charms to fit it into a system for Charm standards among the Celestials - that is...
		+
		+	* Solars: 'Base' Power and applicability (Enhancement)
		+	* Abyssals: 'Base' Power and (slightly less) applicability (Reduction)
		+	* Sidereals: Higher Power but less Applicability (The 'steamroller' effect - they can either do nothing or do something huge)
		+	* Lunars: Less Power but higher applicability (The 'swiss army knife' effect - their single charms cover a breadth of situations but with less oomph - so instead of a 'Triple-range' Charm and an 'No-environmental penalty' charm, they have a 'double-range and ignore most environmental penalties' Charm.)
		+
		+	In the vein of DariusSolluman's revamped Lunars - a big inspiration and an excellent piece of work - I'd suggest that these less-shattered Lunars retain more Societies (Perhaps similar to the ones Charlequin posed, but I haven't read those in detail) and political factions, perhaps forming extended 'families' of Lunars whose tribes/followers interact - creating a sort of 'pantheon' for those tribes. The Lunars would probably be fewer in number - they'd be less isolationist than the Wyld barbarians seen in their Splat, and thusly would have run into far more trouble.
		+
		+	I'd be reducing their Charm costs across the board but doing SOMETHING with DBT to make it fairer - we'd also be rolling many Charms together, so their trees would become less dense and, again, if not Ability-based at least have some coherence (I.e. a 'combat' tree might draw on numerous Full Moon favored Abilties, but not necessarily 'all melee' or 'all brawl' - the Trees would form the tapestry of some 'role' the Lunar would fulfill - so a 'Deceiver' and a 'Evasiveness' tree would draw on (Socialize and Perform) and (Dodge and Athletics), respectively) - I'd rule that, just as the Sids are the downright worst at making new charms and the Solars are the best, the Lunars are very capable adapters, creating new charms with considerable ease - not quite as much as the Solars, however. Lunar trees will likely look more like 'undergrowth' to the Sidereals' 'flowers' to the Solars' 'oak trees' - they'll have a whole slew of effects but, because of the vast 'utility' of their Low-Essence charms, they haven't done much to extend into larger tricks.
		+
		+	My first thought with DBT is to split it into two Charms which each affect different parts of the Tell - the character would thusly have a 'basal' DBT form, like in DariusSolluman's revision, and by taking Charm A they can increase their attributes in DBT but their Tell becomes larger (But not more noticable! A Lunar with a lot of Charm A and no Charm B has a GIGANTIC Tell that's, oddly, very hard to notice), and if they take Charm B they get another Gift in DBT but their Tell becomes more attention-drawing (So a Lunar with lots of Charm B and no Charm A has a tiny Tell that people can't help but notice).
		+
		+	Their less-perverted society would retain its original castes -
		+
		+	* <b>Full Moon</b> - Brawl, Melee, Medicine, Presence, Ride - The consummate battle-leader of a tough steppes clan, as deadly with his fists as with a sword and capable of rallying - or mending - his broken comrades.
		+
		+	* <b>Waxing Moon</b> - Bureaucracy, Lingustics, Resistance, Socialize, Thrown - Capable diplomats, moving seamlessly into the social structures of others, with a potent resistance to interrogation and the assassin's art to defend their Zenith allies at a moment's notice.
		+
		+	* <b>Half Moon</b> - Archery, Awareness, Endurance, Investigation, Survival - Toughened field-commanders, moving alongside an armed force and aiding them from afar with planned, tactical strikes - keen eyes unfurling the plots of enemy generals with ease.
		+
		+	* <b>Waning Moon</b> - Athletics, Dodge, Performance, Larceny, Stealth - Actors and thieves, slipping into places where no other could enter, playing a million roles and evading a billion obstacles to achieve at odd angles what a Night would achieve with brutishness.
		+
		+	* <b>No Moon</b> - Craft, Lore, Martial Arts, Occult, Sail - The wardens of the edges of society, the dead moon is a still pool - capable of making, understanding, considering, and, if necessary, tearing it down.
		+
		+	I'm thinking of swapping MA and Thrown between No Moon and Waxing Moon - simply to ensure that No Moons don't get both of the over-attributes. I don't know if it's completely necessary, though... thoughts?
		+
		+	Here are some of the ideas for Brawl charms - not necessarily in the order of prerequisites, but with a rough suggestion of how deep in the tree they'll be. Lunar trees probably will be denser than they are deep - that is, they'll rarely get more than 5-6 charms deep, instead 'branching' into clouds.
		+
		+	* /ShatteredCharacterCreation
		+	* /TransformationCharms
		+
		+	== Comments ==
		+
		+	Thoughts on this? Would switching to this system rob Lunars of some...'flavor', for lack of a better word? I don't think Sids or DBs are particularly hindered for sharing a structure with the Solars - I just don't foresee it happening (Hell, I think being reliant on Attributes actively <i>detracts</i> from the Lunars - it seems very inelegant). As an aside: What would form the new cap for Lunar boosters? ~ BerserkSeraph
		+
		+	I rather like the changes, although that's partially because I didn't much like the flavor the Lunars had to begin with. As far as their dice-adder caps go, I'd leave them at the Attributes. They still get hefty attributes courtesy of DBT if nothing else, and it contrasts them with Ability+Specialty DBs or Essence Sidereals. ~Oberndorf
		+
		+	:I suppose that's fair - although it does continue the factor of really, deeply needing DBT to maximize effectiveness. DBs get a trade-off for their cap in that they have great mote efficiency and it's easier to get Ability 5 and Specialty 3 than it is to get Attribute 8. Sidereals get payoff in that they don't really have to roll very often with their Charms.
		+
		+	:Well yeah, but Lunars have always had that problem. It's not like it'd be a new issue, just a painful one. Besides, since Lunars get to add successes, rather than dice, the smaller dice caps are a little less onerous. ~Oberndorf
		+
		+
		+	Suggestion: I'd switch around some of the caste abilities, namely: Athletics should probably go to Full Moons (given their anima ability and all). No Moons should lose Martial Arts (they are already the Sorcerers - it seems wrong for them to get both of the weird abilities) and should get something defensive insofar as they'll often be spellcasters (Dodge or Resistance). Waning Moons should get an offensive ability that is either based on opportunistic tool-use (probably Thrown) or artistic self-reliance (Martial Arts). Half Moons... well, I'd give them Ride for mobility, and I think having both Awareness and Investigation is somewhat over-concentrated. Investigation could go to Waning Moons. This would give us:
		+
		+	* Full Moon - Athletics, Brawl, Melee, Medicine, Presence
		+
		+	* Waxing Moon - Bureaucracy, Lingustics, Resistance, Socialize, Thrown
		+
		+	* Half Moon - Archery, Awareness, Endurance, Ride, Survival
		+
		+	* Waning Moon - Investigation, Martial Arts, Performance, Larceny, Stealth
		+
		+	* No Moon - Craft, Dodge, Lore, Occult, Sail
		+
		+	Of course, I really haven't given a great deal of thought to the Caste archetypes, so I may be way off here...
		+
		+	Other Alternatives: reduce the number of Favored Abilities per Caste, but give each Lunar a favored Attribute based upon that Lunar's Totem. The Attribute would be bought at favored costs, as would transformation Charms that are affiliated with that Attribute totem-thing, regardless of whether they were Charms of a favored ability. -[[szilard]]
		+
		+	:Here's the method behind some of this madness: The majority of stat-boosting/shapechanger charms will fall under Athletics, creating the 'exercise and claws' trees - this will be where Wanings get their offense, so they run short on it. Likewise, we don't want to load the Full Moons too much for melee bear, so two of the six Lunar 'offense' Abilities will be their purview - more than anyone else but not the weighty force of a Dawn, who in my estimation is hindered by the huge number of combat abilities in his list and the lack of much else.
		+
		+	:Awareness and Investigation cover two different facets of being insightful, both of which are vital to the role of the Half-Moon in unfurling battlefield conditions AND enemy plots - they are the consummate watchmen of the Lunars. I don't feel the need to give the No Moons a defensive skill just because they may need it - Dawns sure as hell need Resistance and Endurance but nobody lines up to pass it to 'em.
		+
		+	:The only issue I have with splitting MA and Occult from the No Moons is the mental image is so damn cool. I may let 'cool' trump 'good sense' in this case - especially because my mental images of the iconic caste members have had time to stagnate. I'll take some time to mull it over, however.
		+
		+	I'm not that up on Lunars unfortunaly(still new, takes while to absorb everything.) But do we know there were originally 5 castes? It might make sense to have 6, and favor Attributes then Abilties(As it seems likely was done with the Alchemicals.) That way the division works at least.
		+	The other wacky thought would be to allow Lunars to have <i>attribute specialties</i>. Then they could have a cap of attribute + specialty. (like DB. but better).
		+	It gets a little weird, unless you disallow ability specialties, or just invoke the (Max bonus from specialties is +3 rule)
		+	Just some weird thoughts -- FlowsLikeBits
		+
		+	:We do indeed know the names of the five original Lunar Castes, a parallel of the five Solar, Alchemical, Abyssal, Sidereal, and Dragon-Blooded Castes, aspects, and so on - I consider it a 'grave mistake' that the Lunars are the odd ones out in this respect. Similarly, I am deliberately moving away from the Attribute model because I think it's dumb- it's an unnecessary deviation from Abilities, which form a standard for everyone else (but Alchemicals - but until we've got the book I can't really comment on how that worked out). I find the Charm trees of the other Exalts to be better thought out, more attractive in function, having more effect on making the character being an individual with unique skills and tricks - rather than 'Bob Lunar' and 'Joe Lunar', who both have to use the same set of (crappy) ranged combat Charms, despite one using thrown and the other arrows... the 'divide by function' was a good idea but sloppily laid out, and it penalizes characters by having their core tricks DEMAND taking out-of-caste charms at great expense of xp and time - just to be good at what your Caste is good at! ~ BerserkSeraph
		+
		+	::Note that the ability-standard for Charms also doesn't apply to spirits... and the Fair Folk Charm trees are kinda wonky, as one would expect. My only real concerns about the ability-based Charm trees for Lunars are (1) that DBT and 'basic' shapeshifting Charms either don't fit into a single ability-based tree or - if they do - make that tree far too important and (2) that certain abilities (Athletics, Awareness, Brawl, Survival) seem more central to the Lunar shtick than others. I had a weird brainstorm last night about a Totem-based Charm tree system for Lunars rather than an ability-based one - everyone would start out with access to the generic 'Luna' tree (that would cover basic shapeshiftyness and Sorcery access) and their own Totem, and they could buy access to the Totem trees of other animals in their Heart's Blood library. Each totem tree would have a variety of effects based on the Totem. For instance, the Lion tree might have a mixture of combat and leadership charms, while the Raven tree would focus upon trickery and occultyness. -[[szilard]]
		+
		+	:::That sounds interesting, but there's a lot of totems! How would you divide stuff up? Maybe have some uber-totem trees, like Great Cat, Sea Monster, Rodent, etc... Come to that, what would be some good totems for this concept? -- JesseLowe
		+
		+	::::I believe AppleDog is doing just such a design - I haven't looked his redux over in length but what I've seen, I like - I may even stea^H^H^H borrow some of his Charm names. ~ BerserkSeraph
		+
		+	:::::Yeah, that's pretty well what I'm aiming for here, going for something a little more exciting than what Lunars have now. Mind you, there's no way I can cover every possible creature that a player could want, so I'm just going for a wide spread of shallow, esoteric and flavorful charm trees. If anyone's interested, I've got it up at AppleDog/LunarsRedux.
		+
		+	:::::Oh, and hey, borrow away. ~ AppleDog
		+
		+	:That's going to be handled with, surprise, no DBT! As is, Lunars under this system will instead have elaborate Shapechanger Combos to enter their battle forms, which both decreases the Furrosity of the Exalts AND divorces them from single attributes, because they'll need to tap into numerous trees to get access to the full range of tricks DBT offered- with Waning Moons having access to the lion's share, but nobody being in any way kept from taking the tricks they need. And the listed Abilities are no more central to the Lunar shtick than, say, Presence and Melee are central to the Solars or Bureaucracy and MA to the Sidereals - they're common abilities but they're hardly the only ones worth taking.
		+
		+	:As an aside - Would it be a better idea for me to run out sketches of all the Transformation rules, first? I think it might - it helps answer the balance of what they do now, instead of having to compare it to things that might not exist in the revision. ~ BerserkSeraph
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		+	Eeep! My Bad. I suppose you could still use the <i>attribute specialties</i> idea to give a slightly higher dice cap, if that was useful for where this is going. Still looks cool though. --FlowsLikeBits
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		+	For my project I used Crescent and Gibbous instead of Waning and Waxing. It seems odd otherwise. -[[Xeriar]]

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