David./ExtraComments - Revision history

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2010-06-08T17:26:18Z

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2010-04-06T01:15:46Z

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2010-04-03T09:02:45Z

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Braincraft: It's a metagame issue, not an in-game issue.

2006-05-15T12:04:56Z

It's a metagame issue, not an in-game issue.

New page

Back to David./ExtrasAreNotPeople 
To [[Discussions/Extras | discussion]] of extras

Probably too premature for a comment, but in the first part you're saying Extras ARE and SHOULDNT be people, and then in the second part you're like, "Well, they paid to have real people, let 'em have it!" Off to a confusing start. Oh, and you're the kind of character who plays the Dark Side characters first when you have a choice, aren't you? :) --UncleChu
:No way, man, I'm totally light side. Anyway, I think you're misinterpreting my statements. In the 1e corebook, extras are people, but shouldn't be people. In the second part, I was saying that completely dismissing any mechanics to extras and just treating them as fluff is unfair to people who did pay points to have soldiers - hence the whole system that will soon be posted, wherein there is a mechanical benefit to having troops at your disposal, but they're still not people. Except for the officers and such under you, 'cause they might be important enough to be people. - [[David.]]

One other thing I've always noticed is that, like it or not, at ''least'' 80% of people alive today are, in fact, extras (most likely more!). Perhaps 85% of non-extras are 'mortals', with the rest being heroic mortals. Ask anyone on the wiki if they're an extra, and they'll say no. Ask almost anyone if they're 'above average', and they'll say yes. Thus, the issue you're about to tackle (quite possibly well, I've got no idea yet) can be viewed from two sides. The one side, from that of the extra, is that hey, they're not an extra, and they're important. On the other side of the coin, from the standpoint of the heroic mortal, is that these people don't really matter that much. Thus, the current situation (before your fix). If you were to play an all-mortal game, the Extras still have attributes, and abilities, and pools that matter. Most of the time, they can barely get off 3-4 dice in a pool they're supposed to be 'good' at, but hey, that's ok. That accounts for the high school kid who's good at computers, and can fix his Grandma's machine, and maybe use a script to break copy-protection on something. That accounts for the handyman down the road who can fix your plumbing, since you can't. (Dex or Int of 2, plus your craft(plumbing) of 0, less the 2-die untrained penalty = 0). Going forward, to 'mortals', they've got maybe 15 ability points, and 6,4,3 in their attributes. These are the relatively high-end - the ones running small businesses, working as city council people, lawyers, and even doctors. You've got your college athletes in this level, and even most of your state politicians. ... Sorry, I'd love to finish, but gotta run! Will finish later! -- GreenLantern
:I'm going to interrupt you before you finish. I appreciate your comments about how extras fit into a real-world paradigm, but I really think this is not the place for them, and would really appreciate it if you'd not keep them here. A Discussions page on the subject might be in order. To the point, though, I think you've overlooked the entire purpose of these rules (rules, that, amusingly, aren't even posted yet). Think of this not as a "fix", but as a module - optional rules designed to address a specific approach to Exalted. These deliberately ignore games that don't need to speed up big fights with nameless hordes. - [[David.]]
There are two kinds of non-extras in the world: people who the players are specifically emotionally invested in, and people who the storyteller is specifically emotionally invested in. If nobody cares about that person, he's scenery. - braincraft
:But is that necessarily true? Given the ''current'' rules, an Extra is not only someone with three health levels, they've got lower abilities and attributes than the canon mortals. Thus, there's a few conclusions that can be drawn: (1) If you're being emotionally invested in (and thus a non-Extra), you're 'better'. Conversely, a much more reasonable version that goes "If you're 'better', then people are much more likely to be interested in you as a story-point". The second one is much weirder, (2) If you're not emotionally invested in, you suck. Or, conversely, if you suck, you're not emotionally invested in. In the former case, that means that almost everyone not important to the story is an Extra, which means there are a ''lot'' of Extras out there, all the way through government, other countries, etc. Really weakens the stats on the 'average' member of Creation. In the latter case, people with low stats, by their very nearly-incompetent nature, don't ''become'' important to the story, and thus, you're likely born into your role as an Extra, and can't leave it unless you ''get'' important to the story, and thus, become a 'better' person. This begs some philosophical questions, such as "When does a person become a non-Extra?" If you've had a character in the story before, as an Extra, and now they're kidnapped, and then become Mayor, and then start fomenting revolt against the Realm, at what point do you up their health levels? What about their abilities? -- GreenLantern, ''thinking that yes, maybe a discussion of the Philosophy of Extras might be a better place for his musings. Sorry to thread-steal a bit.''

:::Who cares if he's getting kidnapped, or getting elected to public office, or becoming a revolutionary? If the answer is "not the players or storyteller" then not only is he an extra, but he's not even onscreen. The turning point isn't that he did this stuff in the game, it's that the people outside of the game decided that they wanted a person doing stuff and gave it a name. - braincraft

::(EDIT, 'cause the original comment came out a bit too snarky) I appreciate the conversation, I've had the same conversation on IRC at least once. That said, I do not think this is the place for it. Accordingly, all of these comments will be logged elsewhere once I put up the new extras rules. If you'd prefer I copy them to your discussion page, I will do so, or at the very least make them available for you to relocate as you see fit. - [[David.]]

David.: *

2006-05-11T16:43:02Z

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-Back to David[[David./ExtraComments/ExtrasAreNotPeople]]<br>
+Back to David[[David./ExtrasAreNotPeople]]<br>
-To [[Discussions/Extras | discussion]] of extras
+To [[Discussions/Extras|discussion]] of extras
 Probably too premature for a comment, but in the first part you're saying Extras ARE and SHOULDNT be people, and then in the second part you're like, "Well, they paid to have real people, let 'em have it!"  Off to a confusing start.  Oh, and you're the kind of character who plays the Dark Side characters first when you have a choice, aren't you? :) --[[UncleChu]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:35, 6 April 2010
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-Back to David./ExtrasAreNotPeople<br>
+Back to David.David./[[ExtraComments/ExtrasAreNotPeople]]<br>
 To [[Discussions/Extras | discussion]] of extras
-Probably too premature for a comment, but in the first part you're saying Extras ARE and SHOULDNT be people, and then in the second part you're like, "Well, they paid to have real people, let 'em have it!"  Off to a confusing start.  Oh, and you're the kind of character who plays the Dark Side characters first when you have a choice, aren't you? :) --UncleChu
+Probably too premature for a comment, but in the first part you're saying Extras ARE and SHOULDNT be people, and then in the second part you're like, "Well, they paid to have real people, let 'em have it!"  Off to a confusing start.  Oh, and you're the kind of character who plays the Dark Side characters first when you have a choice, aren't you? :) --[[UncleChu]]
 :No way, man, I'm totally light side. Anyway, I think you're misinterpreting my statements. In the 1e corebook, extras <i>are</i> people, but <i>shouldn't</i> be people. In the second part, I was saying that completely dismissing any mechanics to extras and just treating them as fluff is unfair to people who did pay points to have soldiers - hence the whole system that will soon be posted, wherein there <i>is</i> a mechanical benefit to having troops at your disposal, but they're still not people. Except for the officers and such under you, 'cause they might be important enough to be people. - [[David.]]
-One other thing I've always noticed is that, like it or not, at ''least'' 80% of people alive today are, in fact, extras (most likely more!). Perhaps 85% of non-extras are 'mortals', with the rest being heroic mortals. Ask anyone on the wiki if they're an extra, and they'll say no. Ask almost anyone if they're 'above average', and they'll say yes. Thus, the issue you're about to tackle (quite possibly well, I've got no idea yet) can be viewed from two sides. The one side, from that of the extra, is that hey, they're not an extra, and they're important. On the other side of the coin, from the standpoint of the heroic mortal, is that these people don't really matter that much. Thus, the current situation (before your fix). If you were to play an all-mortal game, the Extras still have attributes, and abilities, and pools that matter. Most of the time, they can barely get off 3-4 dice in a pool they're supposed to be 'good' at, but hey, that's ok. That accounts for the high school kid who's good at computers, and can fix his Grandma's machine, and maybe use a script to break copy-protection on something. That accounts for the handyman down the road who can fix your plumbing, since you can't. (Dex or Int of 2, plus your craft(plumbing) of 0, less the 2-die untrained penalty = 0). Going forward, to 'mortals', they've got maybe 15 ability points, and 6,4,3 in their attributes. These are the relatively high-end - the ones running small businesses, working as city council people, lawyers, and even doctors. You've got your college athletes in this level, and even most of your state politicians. ... Sorry, I'd love to finish, but gotta run! Will finish later! -- GreenLantern
+One other thing I've always noticed is that, like it or not, at ''least'' 80% of people alive today are, in fact, extras (most likely more!). Perhaps 85% of non-extras are 'mortals', with the rest being heroic mortals. Ask anyone on the wiki if they're an extra, and they'll say no. Ask almost anyone if they're 'above average', and they'll say yes. Thus, the issue you're about to tackle (quite possibly well, I've got no idea yet) can be viewed from two sides. The one side, from that of the extra, is that hey, they're not an extra, and they're important. On the other side of the coin, from the standpoint of the heroic mortal, is that these people don't really matter that much. Thus, the current situation (before your fix). If you were to play an all-mortal game, the Extras still have attributes, and abilities, and pools that matter. Most of the time, they can barely get off 3-4 dice in a pool they're supposed to be 'good' at, but hey, that's ok. That accounts for the high school kid who's good at computers, and can fix his Grandma's machine, and maybe use a script to break copy-protection on something. That accounts for the handyman down the road who can fix your plumbing, since you can't. (Dex or Int of 2, plus your craft(plumbing) of 0, less the 2-die untrained penalty = 0). Going forward, to 'mortals', they've got maybe 15 ability points, and 6,4,3 in their attributes. These are the relatively high-end - the ones running small businesses, working as city council people, lawyers, and even doctors. You've got your college athletes in this level, and even most of your state politicians. ... Sorry, I'd love to finish, but gotta run! Will finish later! -- [[GreenLantern]]
 :I'm going to interrupt you before you finish. I appreciate your comments about how extras fit into a real-world paradigm, but I really think this is not the place for them, and would really appreciate it if you'd not keep them here. A Discussions page on the subject might be in order. To the point, though, I think you've overlooked the entire purpose of these rules (rules, that, amusingly, aren't even posted yet). Think of this not as a "fix", but as a module - optional rules designed to address a specific approach to Exalted. These deliberately ignore games that don't need to speed up big fights with nameless hordes. - [[David.]]
 There are two kinds of non-extras in the world: people who the players are specifically emotionally invested in, and people who the storyteller is specifically emotionally invested in. If nobody cares about that person, he's scenery. - braincraft
-:But is that necessarily true? Given the ''current'' rules, an Extra is not only someone with three health levels, they've got lower abilities and attributes than the canon mortals. Thus, there's a few conclusions that can be drawn: (1) If you're being emotionally invested in (and thus a non-Extra), you're 'better'. Conversely, a much more reasonable version that goes "If you're 'better', then people are much more likely to be interested in you as a story-point". The second one is much weirder, (2) If you're not emotionally invested in, you suck. Or, conversely, if you suck, you're not emotionally invested in. In the former case, that means that almost everyone not important to the story is an Extra, which means there are a ''lot'' of Extras out there, all the way through government, other countries, etc. Really weakens the stats on the 'average' member of Creation. In the latter case, people with low stats, by their very nearly-incompetent nature, don't ''become'' important to the story, and thus, you're likely born into your role as an Extra, and can't leave it unless you ''get'' important to the story, and thus, become a 'better' person. This begs some philosophical questions, such as "When does a person become a non-Extra?" If you've had a character in the story before, as an Extra, and now they're kidnapped, and then become Mayor, and then start fomenting revolt against the Realm, at what point do you up their health levels? What about their abilities? -- GreenLantern, ''thinking that yes, maybe a discussion of the Philosophy of Extras might be a better place for his musings. Sorry to thread-steal a bit.''
+:But is that necessarily true? Given the ''current'' rules, an Extra is not only someone with three health levels, they've got lower abilities and attributes than the canon mortals. Thus, there's a few conclusions that can be drawn: (1) If you're being emotionally invested in (and thus a non-Extra), you're 'better'. Conversely, a much more reasonable version that goes "If you're 'better', then people are much more likely to be interested in you as a story-point". The second one is much weirder, (2) If you're not emotionally invested in, you suck. Or, conversely, if you suck, you're not emotionally invested in. In the former case, that means that almost everyone not important to the story is an Extra, which means there are a ''lot'' of Extras out there, all the way through government, other countries, etc. Really weakens the stats on the 'average' member of Creation. In the latter case, people with low stats, by their very nearly-incompetent nature, don't ''become'' important to the story, and thus, you're likely born into your role as an Extra, and can't leave it unless you ''get'' important to the story, and thus, become a 'better' person. This begs some philosophical questions, such as "When does a person become a non-Extra?" If you've had a character in the story before, as an Extra, and now they're kidnapped, and then become Mayor, and then start fomenting revolt against the Realm, at what point do you up their health levels? What about their abilities? -- [[GreenLantern]], ''thinking that yes, maybe a discussion of the Philosophy of Extras might be a better place for his musings. Sorry to thread-steal a bit.''
 ::<i>(EDIT, 'cause the original comment came out a bit too snarky)</i> I appreciate the conversation, I've had the same conversation on IRC at least once. That said, I do not think this is the place for it. Accordingly, all of these comments will be logged elsewhere once I put up the new extras rules. If you'd prefer I copy them to your discussion page, I will do so, or at the very least make them available for you to relocate as you see fit. - [[David.]]

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-Back to David./ExtrasAreNotPeople<br>
+Back to David.[[/ExtrasAreNotPeople]]<br>
 To [[Discussions/Extras | discussion]] of extras
-Probably too premature for a comment, but in the first part you're saying Extras ARE and SHOULDNT be people, and then in the second part you're like, "Well, they paid to have real people, let 'em have it!"  Off to a confusing start.  Oh, and you're the kind of character who plays the Dark Side characters first when you have a choice, aren't you? :) --UncleChu
+Probably too premature for a comment, but in the first part you're saying Extras ARE and SHOULDNT be people, and then in the second part you're like, "Well, they paid to have real people, let 'em have it!"  Off to a confusing start.  Oh, and you're the kind of character who plays the Dark Side characters first when you have a choice, aren't you? :) --[[UncleChu]]
 :No way, man, I'm totally light side. Anyway, I think you're misinterpreting my statements. In the 1e corebook, extras <i>are</i> people, but <i>shouldn't</i> be people. In the second part, I was saying that completely dismissing any mechanics to extras and just treating them as fluff is unfair to people who did pay points to have soldiers - hence the whole system that will soon be posted, wherein there <i>is</i> a mechanical benefit to having troops at your disposal, but they're still not people. Except for the officers and such under you, 'cause they might be important enough to be people. - [[David.]]
-One other thing I've always noticed is that, like it or not, at ''least'' 80% of people alive today are, in fact, extras (most likely more!). Perhaps 85% of non-extras are 'mortals', with the rest being heroic mortals. Ask anyone on the wiki if they're an extra, and they'll say no. Ask almost anyone if they're 'above average', and they'll say yes. Thus, the issue you're about to tackle (quite possibly well, I've got no idea yet) can be viewed from two sides. The one side, from that of the extra, is that hey, they're not an extra, and they're important. On the other side of the coin, from the standpoint of the heroic mortal, is that these people don't really matter that much. Thus, the current situation (before your fix). If you were to play an all-mortal game, the Extras still have attributes, and abilities, and pools that matter. Most of the time, they can barely get off 3-4 dice in a pool they're supposed to be 'good' at, but hey, that's ok. That accounts for the high school kid who's good at computers, and can fix his Grandma's machine, and maybe use a script to break copy-protection on something. That accounts for the handyman down the road who can fix your plumbing, since you can't. (Dex or Int of 2, plus your craft(plumbing) of 0, less the 2-die untrained penalty = 0). Going forward, to 'mortals', they've got maybe 15 ability points, and 6,4,3 in their attributes. These are the relatively high-end - the ones running small businesses, working as city council people, lawyers, and even doctors. You've got your college athletes in this level, and even most of your state politicians. ... Sorry, I'd love to finish, but gotta run! Will finish later! -- GreenLantern
+One other thing I've always noticed is that, like it or not, at ''least'' 80% of people alive today are, in fact, extras (most likely more!). Perhaps 85% of non-extras are 'mortals', with the rest being heroic mortals. Ask anyone on the wiki if they're an extra, and they'll say no. Ask almost anyone if they're 'above average', and they'll say yes. Thus, the issue you're about to tackle (quite possibly well, I've got no idea yet) can be viewed from two sides. The one side, from that of the extra, is that hey, they're not an extra, and they're important. On the other side of the coin, from the standpoint of the heroic mortal, is that these people don't really matter that much. Thus, the current situation (before your fix). If you were to play an all-mortal game, the Extras still have attributes, and abilities, and pools that matter. Most of the time, they can barely get off 3-4 dice in a pool they're supposed to be 'good' at, but hey, that's ok. That accounts for the high school kid who's good at computers, and can fix his Grandma's machine, and maybe use a script to break copy-protection on something. That accounts for the handyman down the road who can fix your plumbing, since you can't. (Dex or Int of 2, plus your craft(plumbing) of 0, less the 2-die untrained penalty = 0). Going forward, to 'mortals', they've got maybe 15 ability points, and 6,4,3 in their attributes. These are the relatively high-end - the ones running small businesses, working as city council people, lawyers, and even doctors. You've got your college athletes in this level, and even most of your state politicians. ... Sorry, I'd love to finish, but gotta run! Will finish later! -- [[GreenLantern]]
 :I'm going to interrupt you before you finish. I appreciate your comments about how extras fit into a real-world paradigm, but I really think this is not the place for them, and would really appreciate it if you'd not keep them here. A Discussions page on the subject might be in order. To the point, though, I think you've overlooked the entire purpose of these rules (rules, that, amusingly, aren't even posted yet). Think of this not as a "fix", but as a module - optional rules designed to address a specific approach to Exalted. These deliberately ignore games that don't need to speed up big fights with nameless hordes. - [[David.]]
 There are two kinds of non-extras in the world: people who the players are specifically emotionally invested in, and people who the storyteller is specifically emotionally invested in. If nobody cares about that person, he's scenery. - braincraft
-:But is that necessarily true? Given the ''current'' rules, an Extra is not only someone with three health levels, they've got lower abilities and attributes than the canon mortals. Thus, there's a few conclusions that can be drawn: (1) If you're being emotionally invested in (and thus a non-Extra), you're 'better'. Conversely, a much more reasonable version that goes "If you're 'better', then people are much more likely to be interested in you as a story-point". The second one is much weirder, (2) If you're not emotionally invested in, you suck. Or, conversely, if you suck, you're not emotionally invested in. In the former case, that means that almost everyone not important to the story is an Extra, which means there are a ''lot'' of Extras out there, all the way through government, other countries, etc. Really weakens the stats on the 'average' member of Creation. In the latter case, people with low stats, by their very nearly-incompetent nature, don't ''become'' important to the story, and thus, you're likely born into your role as an Extra, and can't leave it unless you ''get'' important to the story, and thus, become a 'better' person. This begs some philosophical questions, such as "When does a person become a non-Extra?" If you've had a character in the story before, as an Extra, and now they're kidnapped, and then become Mayor, and then start fomenting revolt against the Realm, at what point do you up their health levels? What about their abilities? -- GreenLantern, ''thinking that yes, maybe a discussion of the Philosophy of Extras might be a better place for his musings. Sorry to thread-steal a bit.''
+:But is that necessarily true? Given the ''current'' rules, an Extra is not only someone with three health levels, they've got lower abilities and attributes than the canon mortals. Thus, there's a few conclusions that can be drawn: (1) If you're being emotionally invested in (and thus a non-Extra), you're 'better'. Conversely, a much more reasonable version that goes "If you're 'better', then people are much more likely to be interested in you as a story-point". The second one is much weirder, (2) If you're not emotionally invested in, you suck. Or, conversely, if you suck, you're not emotionally invested in. In the former case, that means that almost everyone not important to the story is an Extra, which means there are a ''lot'' of Extras out there, all the way through government, other countries, etc. Really weakens the stats on the 'average' member of Creation. In the latter case, people with low stats, by their very nearly-incompetent nature, don't ''become'' important to the story, and thus, you're likely born into your role as an Extra, and can't leave it unless you ''get'' important to the story, and thus, become a 'better' person. This begs some philosophical questions, such as "When does a person become a non-Extra?" If you've had a character in the story before, as an Extra, and now they're kidnapped, and then become Mayor, and then start fomenting revolt against the Realm, at what point do you up their health levels? What about their abilities? -- [[GreenLantern]], ''thinking that yes, maybe a discussion of the Philosophy of Extras might be a better place for his musings. Sorry to thread-steal a bit.''
 :::Who cares if he's getting kidnapped, or getting elected to public office, or becoming a revolutionary? If the answer is "not the players or storyteller" then not only is he an extra, but he's not even onscreen. The turning point isn't that he did this stuff in the game, it's that the people outside of the game decided that they wanted a person doing stuff and gave it a name. - braincraft
 ::<i>(EDIT, 'cause the original comment came out a bit too snarky)</i> I appreciate the conversation, I've had the same conversation on IRC at least once. That said, I do not think this is the place for it. Accordingly, all of these comments will be logged elsewhere once I put up the new extras rules. If you'd prefer I copy them to your discussion page, I will do so, or at the very least make them available for you to relocate as you see fit. - [[David.]]

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-Back to David.[[/ExtrasAreNotPeople]]<br>
+Back to David./ExtrasAreNotPeople<br>
 To [[Discussions/Extras | discussion]] of extras
-Probably too premature for a comment, but in the first part you're saying Extras ARE and SHOULDNT be people, and then in the second part you're like, "Well, they paid to have real people, let 'em have it!"  Off to a confusing start.  Oh, and you're the kind of character who plays the Dark Side characters first when you have a choice, aren't you? :) --[[UncleChu]]
+Probably too premature for a comment, but in the first part you're saying Extras ARE and SHOULDNT be people, and then in the second part you're like, "Well, they paid to have real people, let 'em have it!"  Off to a confusing start.  Oh, and you're the kind of character who plays the Dark Side characters first when you have a choice, aren't you? :) --UncleChu
 :No way, man, I'm totally light side. Anyway, I think you're misinterpreting my statements. In the 1e corebook, extras <i>are</i> people, but <i>shouldn't</i> be people. In the second part, I was saying that completely dismissing any mechanics to extras and just treating them as fluff is unfair to people who did pay points to have soldiers - hence the whole system that will soon be posted, wherein there <i>is</i> a mechanical benefit to having troops at your disposal, but they're still not people. Except for the officers and such under you, 'cause they might be important enough to be people. - [[David.]]
-One other thing I've always noticed is that, like it or not, at ''least'' 80% of people alive today are, in fact, extras (most likely more!). Perhaps 85% of non-extras are 'mortals', with the rest being heroic mortals. Ask anyone on the wiki if they're an extra, and they'll say no. Ask almost anyone if they're 'above average', and they'll say yes. Thus, the issue you're about to tackle (quite possibly well, I've got no idea yet) can be viewed from two sides. The one side, from that of the extra, is that hey, they're not an extra, and they're important. On the other side of the coin, from the standpoint of the heroic mortal, is that these people don't really matter that much. Thus, the current situation (before your fix). If you were to play an all-mortal game, the Extras still have attributes, and abilities, and pools that matter. Most of the time, they can barely get off 3-4 dice in a pool they're supposed to be 'good' at, but hey, that's ok. That accounts for the high school kid who's good at computers, and can fix his Grandma's machine, and maybe use a script to break copy-protection on something. That accounts for the handyman down the road who can fix your plumbing, since you can't. (Dex or Int of 2, plus your craft(plumbing) of 0, less the 2-die untrained penalty = 0). Going forward, to 'mortals', they've got maybe 15 ability points, and 6,4,3 in their attributes. These are the relatively high-end - the ones running small businesses, working as city council people, lawyers, and even doctors. You've got your college athletes in this level, and even most of your state politicians. ... Sorry, I'd love to finish, but gotta run! Will finish later! -- [[GreenLantern]]
+One other thing I've always noticed is that, like it or not, at ''least'' 80% of people alive today are, in fact, extras (most likely more!). Perhaps 85% of non-extras are 'mortals', with the rest being heroic mortals. Ask anyone on the wiki if they're an extra, and they'll say no. Ask almost anyone if they're 'above average', and they'll say yes. Thus, the issue you're about to tackle (quite possibly well, I've got no idea yet) can be viewed from two sides. The one side, from that of the extra, is that hey, they're not an extra, and they're important. On the other side of the coin, from the standpoint of the heroic mortal, is that these people don't really matter that much. Thus, the current situation (before your fix). If you were to play an all-mortal game, the Extras still have attributes, and abilities, and pools that matter. Most of the time, they can barely get off 3-4 dice in a pool they're supposed to be 'good' at, but hey, that's ok. That accounts for the high school kid who's good at computers, and can fix his Grandma's machine, and maybe use a script to break copy-protection on something. That accounts for the handyman down the road who can fix your plumbing, since you can't. (Dex or Int of 2, plus your craft(plumbing) of 0, less the 2-die untrained penalty = 0). Going forward, to 'mortals', they've got maybe 15 ability points, and 6,4,3 in their attributes. These are the relatively high-end - the ones running small businesses, working as city council people, lawyers, and even doctors. You've got your college athletes in this level, and even most of your state politicians. ... Sorry, I'd love to finish, but gotta run! Will finish later! -- GreenLantern
 :I'm going to interrupt you before you finish. I appreciate your comments about how extras fit into a real-world paradigm, but I really think this is not the place for them, and would really appreciate it if you'd not keep them here. A Discussions page on the subject might be in order. To the point, though, I think you've overlooked the entire purpose of these rules (rules, that, amusingly, aren't even posted yet). Think of this not as a "fix", but as a module - optional rules designed to address a specific approach to Exalted. These deliberately ignore games that don't need to speed up big fights with nameless hordes. - [[David.]]
 There are two kinds of non-extras in the world: people who the players are specifically emotionally invested in, and people who the storyteller is specifically emotionally invested in. If nobody cares about that person, he's scenery. - braincraft
-:But is that necessarily true? Given the ''current'' rules, an Extra is not only someone with three health levels, they've got lower abilities and attributes than the canon mortals. Thus, there's a few conclusions that can be drawn: (1) If you're being emotionally invested in (and thus a non-Extra), you're 'better'. Conversely, a much more reasonable version that goes "If you're 'better', then people are much more likely to be interested in you as a story-point". The second one is much weirder, (2) If you're not emotionally invested in, you suck. Or, conversely, if you suck, you're not emotionally invested in. In the former case, that means that almost everyone not important to the story is an Extra, which means there are a ''lot'' of Extras out there, all the way through government, other countries, etc. Really weakens the stats on the 'average' member of Creation. In the latter case, people with low stats, by their very nearly-incompetent nature, don't ''become'' important to the story, and thus, you're likely born into your role as an Extra, and can't leave it unless you ''get'' important to the story, and thus, become a 'better' person. This begs some philosophical questions, such as "When does a person become a non-Extra?" If you've had a character in the story before, as an Extra, and now they're kidnapped, and then become Mayor, and then start fomenting revolt against the Realm, at what point do you up their health levels? What about their abilities? -- [[GreenLantern]], ''thinking that yes, maybe a discussion of the Philosophy of Extras might be a better place for his musings. Sorry to thread-steal a bit.''
+:But is that necessarily true? Given the ''current'' rules, an Extra is not only someone with three health levels, they've got lower abilities and attributes than the canon mortals. Thus, there's a few conclusions that can be drawn: (1) If you're being emotionally invested in (and thus a non-Extra), you're 'better'. Conversely, a much more reasonable version that goes "If you're 'better', then people are much more likely to be interested in you as a story-point". The second one is much weirder, (2) If you're not emotionally invested in, you suck. Or, conversely, if you suck, you're not emotionally invested in. In the former case, that means that almost everyone not important to the story is an Extra, which means there are a ''lot'' of Extras out there, all the way through government, other countries, etc. Really weakens the stats on the 'average' member of Creation. In the latter case, people with low stats, by their very nearly-incompetent nature, don't ''become'' important to the story, and thus, you're likely born into your role as an Extra, and can't leave it unless you ''get'' important to the story, and thus, become a 'better' person. This begs some philosophical questions, such as "When does a person become a non-Extra?" If you've had a character in the story before, as an Extra, and now they're kidnapped, and then become Mayor, and then start fomenting revolt against the Realm, at what point do you up their health levels? What about their abilities? -- GreenLantern, ''thinking that yes, maybe a discussion of the Philosophy of Extras might be a better place for his musings. Sorry to thread-steal a bit.''
 ::<i>(EDIT, 'cause the original comment came out a bit too snarky)</i> I appreciate the conversation, I've had the same conversation on IRC at least once. That said, I do not think this is the place for it. Accordingly, all of these comments will be logged elsewhere once I put up the new extras rules. If you'd prefer I copy them to your discussion page, I will do so, or at the very least make them available for you to relocate as you see fit. - [[David.]]

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